Another "Valrak has said this" post: Demons may get chopped into the cult marines armies

[Mogger351]

9 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Because of GW.

 

Like you're arguing "Editing PDFs isnt hard!" - I agree!

I'm arguing "This is too big of a change for GW to commit, especially considering the CSM codex is already out and there's no indication of this large of a change, such as Belakor being in the book, or different ally rules already being seen."

 

It's a new edition level change. Expecting it or thinking it's likely for 10th is ignoring a lot of precedent. 

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Noise marines and Lucius have just been taken out of the chaos marine codex, given unique army rules and put in a temporary free pdf. Logically these will be replaced again when their codex comes out.

 

GW have performed this logical divide in their other main game system and largely received praise for it.

 

Belakor has existed as a free pdf before as little as a year ago. Vashtorr is also an undivided daemon, but *is* in the chaos marines codex.

 

We've seen about a third of the factions be released now and they've left chaos factions largely untouched. This suggests they want or need to group them close together, which in turn suggests it might be to facilitate a  larger change to them.

 

Following the rumours we're told that agents, them BA and then Guard are coming followed by Eldar. Talks of imperial knights and grey knights in the mix too. So the last batch of codex to drop, will almost all be chaos, which seems a bit suspicious otherwise, no?

[jaxom]

10 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Going off the index for the other 3 and only including dedicated units for that god

Ah, I was going off the models in the web store, not the Index.

[DemonGSides]

5 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Noise marines and Lucius have just been taken out of the chaos marine codex, given unique army rules and put in a temporary free pdf. Logically these will be replaced again when their codex comes out.

 

GW have performed this logical divide in their other main game system and largely received praise for it.

 

Belakor has existed as a free pdf before as little as a year ago. Vashtorr is also an undivided daemon, but *is* in the chaos marines codex.

 

We've seen about a third of the factions be released now and they've left chaos factions largely untouched. This suggests they want or need to group them close together, which in turn suggests it might be to facilitate a  larger change to them.

 

Following the rumours we're told that agents, them BA and then Guard are coming followed by Eldar. Talks of imperial knights and grey knights in the mix too. So the last batch of codex to drop, will almost all be chaos, which seems a bit suspicious otherwise, no?

 

You're acting like I don't want this but I already said I would prefer it that each book just contained a gods entire pantheon of forces and then just redo ally rules for demons.

 

Your connection wrt Lucius has literal 0 logical connection to what's being discussed that I can only assume it's there as obfuscation; Lucius and the EC range update being yanked out of CSM is more akin to Belakor having a CSM entry than not; future planning for future releases. Considering he isn't, it's actually more in support of my POV, not yours. 

 

You're basing your entire prospective on rumors that are unfounded entirely. You're acting like the chaos space marine book didn't literally just drop and not include Belakor, the place where he would most obviously exist in. "A third of factions have been released and chaos has been untouched" my brother the literal biggest chaos faction just had a book drop! Vashtorr being in the CSM book is because all of the stuff he is associated with is demon engines which exist in the CSM book; Belakor is known for interacting with a lot of mortals as part of his pastiche and yet he isn't in the mortals book; just as strong of evidence for 10th retaining the chaos demon standard as anything else that's been quoted by you as "proof", which is such a flimsy ground to stand on to begin with. 

 

We have no schedule for release beyond what's been shown: release schedule rumors are not worth hanging a hat on because they change: hell GW's own release schedule ain't much to rely on considering Tau book existed for almost a full month before being allowed to be used.

 

My point is that I think this would be a great change for 11th, but there's like 0 chance we see this in tenth.

 

 

Edited May 22 by DemonGSides

[Orange Knight]

The point about Belakor is a good one. If this is part of the plan for this cycle, he should really have appeared in the Chaos Marine codex.

 

That's not to say that this rumor is baseless, and this could still pan out once we're past the current edition.

 

It's a bit too early to talk about 11th. I just hope that the next edition isn't another iteration of 8th with the current mission design methodology. 

[TheMawr]

I think part of the will this happen or not discussion is void because both side of the coin are basing the arguments on 2 unreliable factors; Rumors and GW patterns.. the latter of wich really is as reliable as rumors are... GW does, until they dont.. its the only pattern Ive seen over and over again ( with probably edition churn being the only reliable pattern GW holds on to.)

imho there is a 50/50 chance of this happening; it either happens or it doesnt.

 

About index being indicative of future plans, it wasnt in 8th, and it isnt now.. thats never what an index was so far... the 10th edition index translates the 9th editions armies into a new edition, thats all there is to it. The further away from the index we get, the bigger changes we might see, but that too is not guaranteed. But I do think that its proven over again that the indexes dont serve as any proof for anything happening with the codexes.

 

About the Be'lakor issue ( everybody completely forgetting the soulgrinder.. poor thing ) its not as if there couldnt be a CSM 2.0 codex.. thats definitely not something GW would ever do ;) or him getting involved into an end of edition campaign book until 11th edition codex. Because honestly, I think there is enough smoke that chaos undivided isnt done this edition yet.

 

 

With that said, Im one of those in favor, sorry to be one of the people that dissapoints the pentinentone. But it should ( and so easily can ) be done right. I mostly hope the hard lines are drawn into the detachments.. not in the datasheets. ( something that was kind of missing with Aeldari mixed codex, but the index did a little bit better )

 

a small example of what I mean, assuming a no new datasheets situation, World eater Lord on Juggernaut being able to lead and synergize with Fleshhounds and Bloodcrushers.. despite them being daemons. Then a mandatory solo khorne daemon detachment favoring the skullmaster as the leader of bloodcrushers, because it has the khorne daemon keyword. This doesnt make things that exist obsolete, but leaves the door open for interesting new combinations .. wich in turn gives room for conversions and personalisation... like bloodcrushers that are actually berzerkers riding juggernauts... something that will never happen in the current seperation.

 

For thousand sons, what it has become was never what I personally felt right.. with the rubric mostly being ahrimans toys.. I always assumed most from the planet of sorcerers where spacemarine sorcerers leading their mortal, daemon or mutant thralls. But Im never one to think because thats my opinion.. the oops all spacemarines people are wrong. different people different tastes.

 

 

[happyslugger]

I'm more of a collector than player but I do have a large collection of DG, TS, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle Daemons.  I'm currently working on my black legion / WE collections also. I've played chaos soup a few times against my son / mates. 

 

Personally I wouldn't mind the daemons being rolled into their legion codex. It could be quite fun to bring them along in friendly games.  I don't think it would be right to remove them as a standalone faction / army though as it wouldn't be fair to those who only play daemons...that being said...do GW care? Perhaps not.  

 

So do we control what happens...nope.  do I HAVE to do what GW states...NOPE...not unless I'm playing tournament / less friendly or accommodating environments.

 

 

[Dark Shepherd]

Apologies if this is too off topic but going off other rumours we might get a Vashtor/Chaos Knights/Dark Mech codex (and Knights folded into AdMech but that feels more next ed)

 

Knights and Chaos Knights being together in 10th ed launch box is a hint they could share a codex this edition. But that points more towards daemons staying as a codex this edition

[Focslain]

32 minutes ago, Dark Shepherd said:

Knights and Chaos Knights being together in 10th ed launch box is a hint they could share a codex this edition. But that points more towards daemons staying as a codex this edition

The Knights sharing an index was more a product thing then a possible combined codex. Both had so few datacards that it would be semi-worhtless to print them in a seperate binder. Heck the they almost have less combined then either the Imperial Agents or the diverigant chapters on thier own.

[Garrac]

If this rumours are true, probably Belakor wasn't on the codex because, for the start of 10th edition, he was on the demons index. To go and tell Belakor players "No, bro, now you must buy chaos space marine minis" would be too weird and incohesive even for GW. If you ask me, while being still on the "this rumour is true" territory, Belakor will probably get the index detachment released via a free pdf like the drukhari one.

[DemonGSides]

5 minutes ago, Garrac said:

If this rumours are true, probably Belakor wasn't on the codex because, for the start of 10th edition, he was on the demons index. To go and tell Belakor players "No, bro, now you must buy chaos space marine minis" would be too weird and incohesive even for GW. If you ask me, while being still on the "this rumour is true" territory, Belakor will probably get the index detachment released via a free pdf like the drukhari one.

 

The entirety of the chaos demons line has been on the chaos demons index since the start of 10th, so by your logic, this definitely isn't happening.

 

I'm not sure how a detatchment would change any of that either.

Edited May 22 by DemonGSides

[Garrac]

20 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

The entirety of the chaos demons line has been on the chaos demons index since the start of 10th, so by your logic, this definitely isn't happening.

Well, I mean, if you word it that way...

[Dark Shepherd]

4 hours ago, Focslain said:

The Knights sharing an index was more a product thing then a possible combined codex. Both had so few datacards that it would be semi-worhtless to print them in a seperate binder. Heck the they almost have less combined then either the Imperial Agents or the diverigant chapters on thier own.

Quite possibly maybe even probably true

 

BUT

We know (they know)they have distribution and production issues plus selling twice as much of one codex than combined sales of 2 would be much more profitable. And the issue of balancing knights/superheavies in game

 

That said my guess based on if this daemons rumour is true is Vashtor & Dark Mech & Chaos Knights.

 

My other daemonic guess is new daemon kits will be game system specific; damon codex being split in 4 would mean new daemon kits

 

 

 

Edited May 22 by Dark Shepherd

[Mogger351]

I'm still not convinced there's any evidence either way really. Belakor is the in the daemons index - he's a mortal elevated to daemonhood. Vashtorr is a literal minor warp god in the chaos marines codex. Neither makes sense. The daemons book has historically always been an issue and I'd wager will continue to be so. GW has precedent in splitting the daemons out, they're not afraid to move units around mid edition either as shown via the EC index. I wouldn't confidently say anything was on or off the cards, but my gut tells me they'll split the daemons out, pat the legion players on the back and go "your range is fixed now". 

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Bit late to the party, can I add, I personally don't believe this, this was just answering a question from last weeks videos about what is going on with Daemons. This is only thing I heard on the subject, that is why I never did a proper video dedicated to the rumour because of how mad it sounds.

[Jolemai]

On that note, I'm going to close this down until there's anything remotely concrete.