Games Workshop has once again dropped the ball with Terminators.

[Orange Knight]

Let's get one thing out of the way - the models look absolutely fantastic. Arguably the best looking Astartes infantry, alongside Bladeguard and a few other exceptional designs.

 

So what is my problem with them?

 

We once again find ourselves in a situations where the "Elite" Terminators aren't performing on the tabletop, and GW keep dropping their point costs with each balance update. They gradually become less and less elite as time goes on, and they don't compete favourably with some other options.

 

Why is this happening?

 

40k started out as a skirmish game, and for a few editions after that the armies were still relatively small compared to what is run today in a standard 2k game. In those early days, unit design philosophy was different to the one that dominates today.

When the armies were smaller, units were less focused towards a singular purpose. It's why the tactical squad can take a special and heavy weapon - they were expected to engage a variety of threats. In the current game, with armies being bigger and having multiple layers of redundancy, and objectives that drive you towards specific positioning on the board, such a unit is simply wasteful.

The game is now dominated by units that specialise in certain jobs - cheap objective holders, fast moving close combat units, dedicated fire support squads, etc etc.

 

The basic Terminator was designed in those older editions, and has a mish-mash of capabilities but doesn't excel in any of them. They have some shooting, but not enough quality to threaten tough units, nor enough quantity to threaten hordes. They have close combat capability, but neither enough strength or volume to reliably overcome common threats in the game. They are durable, but not enough to stonewall an opponent.

 

As things stand, units like Eradicators, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Inceptors, Infiltrators, etc perform and play better. Each of those units is built around certain offensive profiles or defensive abilities that allow them to excel. Games workshop had the opportunity to modify the way Terminators are equipped when they refreshed the models, but instead played it safe. In my opinion, Terminators should have replaced Centurions. They should have been even tougher, and their equipment should have been more focused. I would have loved to see something similar to these configurations:

 

-Storm Terminator squad - All models armed with Assault Cannons and Power Fists/Swords - Designed to take out hordes and hunt down opposing objective holders. (They have a special rule allowing them to target a 2nd infantry unit if they completely destroy the 1st)

 

-Strike Terminator squad - All models armed with Cyclone Missile launcher and Power Fist/Chain Fist - Designed to take out Monsters, Light Vehicles and tougher infantry. (They gain +1 to hit if they target the closest monster or vehicle)

 

-Bulwark Terminator squad - All models armed with Stormshields and Thunder Hammers - Designed to stop and punish the enemy's offensive combat units. (They have a rule allowing them to counter charge enemy units that get too close)

 

On top of this, the unit is even more durable with toughness 6, the same as Aggressors and Centurions. They also cost more points, as it should be for a high impact "Elite" unit. As it stands, they will never be able to compete with more focused units unless they keep getting point reductions. I don't think any of us want cheap Terminators; we want powerful Terminators.

 

 

Note that my critique doesn't apply to units like the Deathwing Knights - these guys could easily be fixed by making their offensive profile better in a future update, as an example.

 

 

 

 

[AutumnEffect]

I haven't really had the chance to play-test Terminators this edition, but when I took a look at them and ran a couple numbers my immediate thought was:
"Oh, this is a melee unit with incidental shooting."

 

3 Power Fist attacks that, when on Oath of Moment, hit on 2's and re-roll is solid, especially with Sustained Hits 1 from a Librarian. (As an aside, you should always be re-rolling anything that isn't a 6 to fish for more Sustained hits) 

 

But I think they are just 'Okay'. 6 or 7 out of 10. 
Part of the problem is the special rules seem mediocre. +1 to hit when you're already hitting on 3's and only against Oath of Moment is just...bad. Even with the combo with the Librarian. 
The teleport homer can be cheeky but limited.

 

If they had some kind of damage reduction ability I think it would go a long way to making them a real bulwark. Really just...anything but what they have.

[Orange Knight]

Yes, they are definitely more focused towards melee, but the problem is that they don't compare favourably to Aggressors or Bladeguard in that department. These are units in the same codex.

 

Their deepstrike rule is good, but they fail to really make an immediate impact and there is no easy charge from arriving this way. They probably benefit from a transport so they can reliably get into combat, but at that point they start to fall behind Aggressors again. 

 

You can put 10 Hellblasters in a Drop Pod, and that unit will deliver what is effectively 20 Power Fists attacks with better AP at range against any unit, no need to charge.

 

The inspiration for my suggestion comes from the Horus Heresy. Terminators with a focus on ranged warfare exist there and perform very well.

Edited May 30 by Orange Knight

[Galron]

I agree on most of these. In fact with G-Man coming back and bringing about all these specialized primaris units, many of which being analogues from the Heresy era, you would have thought that specialized terminator units would have made an appearance as well fluffwise. Especially since his own legion was notorious for using missile armed terminator units whose idea they stole from the Iron Warriors. Space Wolves in earlier editions could in fact have full terminator units armed with all assault cannons and/or cyclone missile launchers. Everyone just did assault cannons though because they were the bomb back then, to the point the Blood Angels at the end of that edition(cant remember what it was, 2 or 3) had what was considered an extremely broken unit, a Dreadnought with two twin assault cannons. I remember going to a tournament and seeing my buddy's army and it was in a line across the center of the board of just terminators with assault cannons. 

 

I would love to see "tyrant" and other specialized ranged terminators make a come back. We already have assault terminators and they do an ok job even if thunder hammers have been nerfed to the point of stupid.

[chapter master 454]

Because as with any unit of the Firstborn era, they actually sucked in general with only assault terminators being the usual go-to unit.

 

Of prior editions, a lot of marine units were built around the idea of "jack of all trades" with each unit largely being able to perform in both range and melee. For marines, this meant mostly any unit that existed needed to have melee ability if they were a ranged unit and ranged ability if they were melee.

However the best units of these were the ones that could ignore the other half and not be too badly pointed for it.

 

Tactical Terminators were largely inferior in all ways to assault terminators, combination of their melee being the big part of why they were good and their ranged component not only be mediocre but only needing more points invested to bring anything. Meanwhile, slap some thunder hammers or lightning claws on assault terminators and you were off to the races. This meant that marines didn't really want to take things like their options and instead just the default weapons unless the options included plasma or melta. Kind of the thing with Bolter Blitzing (as back then, Heavy weapons couldn't even fire on infantry models if they moved at all unless they had a USR for it), comically being a sort of show of people bringing what would become the loadout for intercessors minus the special weapons.

These sort of "general purpose" units would actually have a purpose in campaign settings, where each battle isn't a vacuum and the army can shift around perfectly every game. Having such units then would be a boon as now this unit can indeed show its worth when over the course of a campaign it allowed the unit to handle anything from light infantry to causing tanks to retreat as to avoid taking too much damage going into the next battle.

 

This is why the Primaris units are being effective with only really a few notable failures, mainly in their tanks.

Intercessors don't worry about heavy weapons and just bring their good bolters. Hellblasters don't worry about anything because they are anti-everything with their plasma. Eradicators specialise into a niche of killing big things and don't waste time with "but what if", they say "we kill big things, nothing else" and don't waste time with having 3 of their number carrying mandated flamers which they have to bring 1 to 1 of melta weapons, they just bring melta. This means each unit we have seen from primaris have actual roles they fill and EXCEL at, not just being decent at while being just above tepid in all others.

Notable failures of the primaris are the Repulsor who needed to really decide on being a transport or battle tank, and failed at both because like marine units of old with their "good at all things" had to pay way too many points to do way too much. It really was only taken because it was Primaris' only other source of anti-tank (and for a long time, only source of lascannons! And even then, the next one I believe was the Executioner who only managed better because of the pushed rules on it).

Another failure were reivers...but that really is just because leadership doesn't matter in 40k as much as GW rule's team thinks...or maybe some executive has some weird fetish for it and has put a mandated quota for every army to have at least 1 to 2 battleshock based units. Can we quickly laugh at the Votann new scout boys getting AP2 melee weapons while reivers got diddly squat?

 

The answer is really in just upping their ability in various ways. I would say their rules need to include while terminator armour is so dang tough (possibly they come with built-in armour of contempt but they may never have their strat used on them) and to make their damage outputs meaningful (both units gaining benefits I think when outnumbered would be appropriate, would also encourage people not to take massive bricks of them). I don't think making new unit load-outs helps too much, sadly the way they are set-up doesn't help and while it would be awesome to have a unit full of assault cannons or heavy flamers...it would just invalidate the storm bolter variant.

Likely also doesn't help their detachment is a straight joke. Like everytime you say it I swear I hear a Cymbal somewhere!

 

Curious to see responses to this as I feel this is a divisive subject I and often am the odd one out. Then again, I could be considered a "cranky old man" these days!

[AutumnEffect]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

You can put 10 Hellblasters in a Drop Pod, and that unit will deliver what is effectively 20 Power Fists attacks with better AP at range against any unit, no need to charge.

Quick aside as I'm too busy to give a thorough reply, but Hellblasters don't even really need a Drop Pod now.
They just flat have 2 shots at 24" now with Assault and Heavy so they can sit pretty at 24" hitting on 2+.

[Orange Knight]

I don't think this topic is particularly divisive.

 

I made it because I love the 40k Terminators. The models are just so perfect. Their lore is fantastic. They have earned the kind of adoration a unit can only achieve if the entire community once spoke about it in hushed, awe-inspired whispers as they grew up alongside the hobby.

 

My problem is that GW designers evidently understand the issued faced by units that were designed at a time when 40k was a smaller scale skirmish game, when said units are pitted against armies in the more recent editions. The design of Primaris units, which echoes the design of Horus Heresy units, is clear evidence of that. In modern 40k, just as it is with the Horus Heresy, the average game involves more models and larger battles than what was typically played in 1st - 5th editions of the game.

 

The Repulsor Tanks and Terminators are really the only units that haven't followed the design mythos introduced with the Primaris. Even the Sternguard have been consolidated into a unit with a very clear, defined role (although they need some tune up).  

 

Ultimately, the only generic Terminators that have a realistic hope of being an effective unit in the future are the Assault Variants, once GW decides to restore Thunder Hammers to their former glory. Even if this is the case, one can make the argument that the reliable Twin-Linked Aggressors with their impressive number of bolter shots are the better designed unit in terms of purpose, if not appearance.

 

 

Edited May 30 by Orange Knight
Fixing error

[Galron]

Have 

16 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Ultimately, the only generic Terminators that have a realistic hope of being an effective unit in the future are the Assault Variants, once GW decided to restore Thunder Hammers to their former glory. 

Have they improved Thunder Hammers or something? Last time I checked they were still super pathetically bad and only slightly better than power fists versus what they used to be. If they brought them up to s10 -3 ap and 3 damage we might be having a different conversation but even with dev wounds, s8 -2ap 2D is pretty amazingly lame especially with a 4+ to hit.

[SvenIronhand]

They work better than they did before they got T5. 

I get good performance out of them, particularly due to their sheer durability. 

[AutumnEffect]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Even if this is the case, one can make the argument that the reliable Twin-Linked Aggressors with their impressive number of bolter shots are the better designed unit in terms of purpose, if not appearance.

 

The existence of both Terminators and Aggressors is very bizarre to me and I can't account for it.

 

To my mind, Aggressors were clearly intended to be the new Terminator. The Terminator+ with double the power fist action and still have buckets of Str 4 shots.

 

But then GW surprised me and came out with a brand new terminator kit.

The two units, as has been pointed out a lot, are so similar in use and design that they kind of necessitate making the other inferior.

 

The only thing I can think of is GW recognizing (correctly) that a refresh of Terminators would be gobbled up. But how they untangle themselves from having two so similar units in the same army I have no idea.

 

My personal idea is to just make Terminators 'The Tank' with their invulnerable save and 2+. Strip out their current rule and give them something defensive focused like -1 to all damage taken, minimum 1. Then let the Aggressors be 'The Striker'.

 

It's impossible for the two units to not have some overlap, but they can at least limit it.

Edited May 30 by AutumnEffect

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Galron said:

Have 

Have they improved Thunder Hammers or something? Last time I checked they were still super pathetically bad and only slightly better than power fists versus what they used to be. If they brought them up to s10 -3 ap and 3 damage we might be having a different conversation but even with dev wounds, s8 -2ap 2D is pretty amazingly lame especially with a 4+ to hit.

 

Sorry, I meant to say "Decides" not "Decided"

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I still maintain that 40K is still a skirmish game at 2k points.

 

edit

GW makes big changes 

the community “nnnoooo this is awful we like the old stuff!”

 

GW doesn’t change something 

the community “nnnooo this is awful things need to change to remain relevant!”

 

 

Edited May 30 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Dr. Clock]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Games workshop had the opportunity to modify the way Terminators are equipped when they refreshed the models, but instead played it safe.

They did refresh the models... with Aggressors, as the noble AutumnEffect has just mentioned, and with Centurions. I don't think either of those sold well in comparison to terminators because I think design actually does matter more than GW sometimes realizes.

 

I agree at 175 for 5x3W T5 2+/4++ with deep-strike they are firmly in the 'rock' not the 'scissors' category though. You're right that they don't put out attacks very efficiently, but they are primarily a self-sufficient deep-strike push threat that are just very reliable into a wide array of targets.

 

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

As things stand, units like Eradicators, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Inceptors, Infiltrators, etc perform and play better. Each of those units is built around certain offensive profiles or defensive abilities that allow them to excel.

In their ideal circumstances obviously specialists outperform generalists. Yet I would maintain that terminators are better offensively and defensively and in terms of poistioning into a wider array of things than any of those examples.

 

I think the mistake is in thinking that the basic unit on its own will be enough to counter high-end blasters/hammers on their own terms. In most cases they shouldn't have to because you're bringing them in to counter enemy plans or moves in the most inconvenient way possible, not always asking them to punch up. Even if you're sending them to their deaths, at minimum they will hopefully soak enough attacks that they buy time for you to line up your own bigger shots.

 

As an aside, all the terminator characters are also worth it in my view if you want to push a unit just that bit further on damage/efficacy. At 175 they do some damage. Go to 250ish and add in Smite + Lethal on all attacks, or +1 to wound in melee and mortal defence, or re-roll charges + free strat and all of a sudden you got a stew goin.

 

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

They should have been even tougher, and their equipment should have been more focused. I would have loved to see something similar to these configurations:

 

Cool! I'd honestly love to see Centurions or Gravis units converted from terminators if you want to keep the overall aesthetic but turn them into more specialist offensive pieces. Heck - I'd likely be okay to try out some homebrew data-sheets if they were directly reflective of even more esoteric/distinct converted armaments.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited May 30 by Dr. Clock
Clarity

[jaxom]

 

Head to the end of the post if you just want to read how I'd tweak Terminators to help fix the problem.

 

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

*SNIP*

 

The basic Terminator was designed in those older editions, and has a mish-mash of capabilities but doesn't excel in any of them. They have some shooting, but not enough quality to threaten tough units, nor enough quantity to threaten hordes. They have close combat capability, but neither enough strength or volume to reliably overcome common threats in the game. They are durable, but not enough to stonewall an opponent.

Excellent overview of their history and how we reached the problem. Ironically, I think 10th edition does have the tools to deal with problem, but the designers need to be willing to embrace the core identity that differentiates Terminators from Aggressors: they are the Elite of the elite. See the end of the post for what I'd do if I were them.

 

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

The Repulsor Tanks and Terminators are really the only units that haven't followed the design mythos introduced with the Primaris. Even the Sternguard have been consolidated into a unit with a very clear, defined role (although they need some tune up).  

 

Ultimately, the only generic Terminators that have a realistic hope of being an effective unit in the future are the Assault Variants, once GW decided to restore Thunder Hammers to their former glory. Even if this is the case, one can make the argument that the reliable Twin-Linked Aggressors with their impressive number of bolter shots are the better designed unit in terms of purpose, if not appearance.

 

I disagree about it being their only jope, though the design team is very conservative with rule changes within an edition. I've a slim hope that the reception of what turned out to be very underbaked Mechanicus and the future rule update they get is a positive trend. Aggressors have excellent purpose-design, but it's not what Terminators should be doing.

 

1 hour ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

The existence of both Terminators and Aggressors is very bizarre to me and I can't account for it.

 

*SNIP*

 

It's impossible for the two units to not have some overlap, but they can at least limit it.

 

Your explanation is a pretty good accounting of it  Terminators were probably meant to be replaced, but they ended up not being replaced. See the end of this post how I think they could differentiate between the role of Aggressors and Terminators.

 

3 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

Of prior editions, a lot of marine units were built around the idea of "jack of all trades" with each unit largely being able to perform in both range and melee. For marines, this meant mostly any unit that existed needed to have melee ability if they were a ranged unit and ranged ability if they were melee.

However the best units of these were the ones that could ignore the other half and not be too badly pointed for it.

 

*SNIP

 

The answer is really in just upping their ability in various ways. I would say their rules need to include while terminator armour is so dang tough (possibly they come with built-in armour of contempt but they may never have their strat used on them) and to make their damage outputs meaningful (both units gaining benefits I think when outnumbered would be appropriate, would also encourage people not to take massive bricks of them). I don't think making new unit load-outs helps too much, sadly the way they are set-up doesn't help and while it would be awesome to have a unit full of assault cannons or heavy flamers...it would just invalidate the storm bolter variant.

Likely also doesn't help their detachment is a straight joke. Like everytime you say it I swear I hear a Cymbal somewhere!

 

The way Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe described the 3rd edition Marine line up (from which all this descends) is that their average is higher but their peaks are lower, so never go head-to-head in an area of specialization and think of it like rock-paper-scissors. A Tactical Squad could be successful in assault against non-assault units, but an Assault Squad would fail against another army's specialized assault units; so send it after their backline while you shoot the assault units. I agree that the legion-ification of Marines fits better with 10th edition and has put Terminators in a bit of a spot.

 

I also agree that Terminators need something to help emphasis their role in lore and on the table top, and I new units are an inelegant solution. The unit should be able to stand on its own regardless of any detachment rules.

 

What would I do if I were GW tweaking Terminator rules?

Terminators are the elite of the elite. They deploy to take on the largest threats of an enemy force. Their skills are unmatched and complimented with weapons and armour inhabited by the most ancient and bellicose of machine-spirits.

1. Add the Sustained Hits 1 rule to their Storm Bolter profile.
2. Add the Lethal Hits 1 rule to their Power fist profile and/or increase Power fist strength to 10.
3. Add Sustained Hits 2 to their Lightning claw profile
4. Change the Fury of the First rule to read, "Each time a model in this unit makes an attack that targets your Oath of Moment target, an unmodified roll of 5+ scores a Critical Hit and an unmodified wound roll of 5+ scores a Critical Wound."
5. Replace Terminator Assault with Fury of the First.

 

 

 

Edited May 30 by jaxom
Added critical wound effect to fury of the first for Thunder Hammers and Assault Cannons.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

Terminators are a vintage marine unit. Therefore it is no wonder that they don´t fit the modern Primaris style of warfare. This means that even scale creep won´t help them to fit in. They were only added to the mix to incentivize grognards like me to buy the Leviathan box set.

[tychobi]

Terminators are slow.  Deep strike is not a fix. I control where your terminators drop and who they get to fight if I have faster units.  Dress em up however you like their speed makes them predictable 

[jaxom]

35 minutes ago, tychobi said:

Dress em up however you like their speed makes them predictable 

Yes, but there are ways around that; as we tend to see with people using Aggressors. Firestorm gives their ranged weapons Assault so they can always be Advancing if not in a transport. Stormlance lets them Charge after Advancing or Falling Back. Vanguard lets them Infiltrate with a character. Slow is part and parcel of what Terminators have always been. I think the crux (and @Orange Knight can correct me if I'm wrong) is that they seem to be pointed too cheap for what they should be while still underperforming compared to similar, slow units (Aggressors, Centurions).

[Orange Knight]

There are ways to get Terminators around quicker, sure, but the effort and resources are better spent on units that deliver more reliable damage in close combat - such as the Aggressors and the Biologis, or simply a more effective ranged unit.

[crimsondave]

Quote

On top of this, the unit is even more durable with toughness 6, the same as Aggressors and Centurions. They also cost more points, as it should be for a high impact "Elite" unit. As it stands, they will never be able to compete with more focused units unless they keep getting point reductions. I don't think any of us want cheap Terminators; we want powerful Terminators.

 

 

With the increase in Str of some weapons and T of vehicles this edition, I think Terminators should be T 8.  They are walking tanks in armor the imperium can't make better.  They should be tougher than any other SM infantry imo.  They have relied on an invul save for many editions (some as bad as 5++) and it just doesn't cut it.  Jmo.  Of course, then you have basically the entire Custodes army being T8 so there is that to consider.

Edited May 30 by crimsondave

[Malakithe]

For me I really hate that storm bolters don't have AP in a world of bolt rifles.

 

While making my drop pod list I'm looking at a unit of 10 Sternguard costing the same as a unit of 5 DW termites. My thought is the termites deepstrike, hopefully clear out a screen/chaff with their 0 AP storm bolter then maybe/maybe not charge in. It's kinda strange. 

[Pacific81]

As a way to workaround this, a friend and I are building Heresy-era forces but using 2nd edition 40k rules. 3+ saving through on 2d6, baby!

Edited May 31 by Pacific81

[AutumnEffect]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

For me I really hate that storm bolters don't have AP in a world of bolt rifles.

 

This also surprised me when I first saw it. I could see Storm Bolters having a higher quantity of less powerful bolt shells than the Bolt Rifle but then I think they should have Devastating Wounds like the Assault Cannon. I actually think that'd give some cool synergy with it and give their shooting a niche.

 

Roll a bunch of dice and fish for Devastating Wounds after getting Sustained Hits from a Librarian? Now that'd actually be firepower to give pause.

Edited May 31 by AutumnEffect

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

What did you expect though?

 

aggressors were clearly intended to be replacements for terminators. When they realized so many people hated the new models and units they made a hasty decision to primarisify first born units. Maybe in 11th edition when they’ve had time to put more time thinking about how to treat them they may have more unique rules, and they may play how people feel they should.

[Helias_Tancred]

It's funny that terminators are T5 yet gravis armor units are T6. 

 

So the Imperium can't make terminator armor anymore? Who cares? lol.  (I'm being sarcastic. The OP has a stellar point.)  Yeah yeah I know, the invuln versus no invuln ;) 

 

I might raise their point costs significantly and give them a 3+ invuln and simply call it a day? And make them the only marine unit, in that super rare and cannot replicate armor, with a 3+ invulnerable save. /shrug

 

 

Edited June 1 by Helias_Tancred

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

It's funny that terminators are T5 yet gravis armor units are T6. 

 

So the Imperium can't make terminator armor anymore? Who cares? lol.  (I'm being sarcastic. The OP has a stellar point.)  Yeah yeah I know, the invuln versus no invuln ;) 

 

I might raise their point costs significantly and give them a 3+ invuln and simply call it a day? And make them the only marine unit, in that super rare and cannot replicate armor, with a 3+ invulnerable save. /shrug

 

 

3++ only solves part of the problem, and maybe not even all of the issue. 
they become only slightly more durable, but does nothing to change how much firepower they have, or how punchy they are.

now maybe a 2+/4++/5+++ would give them the durability people expect from them.

stormbolters go to

<rapid fire2> A3 S4 AP-1 D1 24”