Games Workshop has once again dropped the ball with Terminators.

[DemonGSides]

14 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Out of interest, do you know how a Scarab Occult Terminator lines up height wise to the new Termies?

The legs are pretty straight for a Terminator, and line up as expected compared to rubrics but I'm sure I've seen people pointing out that SOTs are only still in the same post code as the current Scale because of the headcrests.

 

I sold off my 1KSons a few years back but I'm still friends with the guy who bought em, I can ask if he can do a comparison pic but off the top of my head  they are definitely head height shorter but like you said, the crest pulls a lot of weight with making them closer.

 

It's unfortunate they're a relatively new sculpt, they could stand some bulking up. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Going back and rereading the OP, I feel like the reason terminators don’t feel elite, is in many cases the lack of FoC.

 

most army lists are full of ‘elite’ units, or units that are otherwise significant upgrades from the army’s ‘standard’ unit.

aggressors, aren’t elite troops, but they’re  a major melee upgrade from intercessors, and heavy intercessors, a durability upgrade from assault intercessors.

 

this makes terminators feel less elite, or less special.

not to mention terminators are unit designed when the faction was supposed to have flexible units, and now primaris units are designed to be specialists, so hellblasters, eradicators, etc. will have WAY better shooting, meanwhile aggressors will have comparable or better melee per model.

 

again making them feel less elite or special.

 

just my observations on the original post, and without completely reworking what a terminator squad fundamentally is, I’m not really sure how GW can address that.

[Tacitus]

On 6/28/2024 at 1:23 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Going back and rereading the OP, I feel like the reason terminators don’t feel elite, is in many cases the lack of FoC.

 

most army lists are full of ‘elite’ units, or units that are otherwise significant upgrades from the army’s ‘standard’ unit.

aggressors, aren’t elite troops, but they’re  a major melee upgrade from intercessors, and heavy intercessors, a durability upgrade from assault intercessors.

 

this makes terminators feel less elite, or less special.

not to mention terminators are unit designed when the faction was supposed to have flexible units, and now primaris units are designed to be specialists, so hellblasters, eradicators, etc. will have WAY better shooting, meanwhile aggressors will have comparable or better melee per model.

 

again making them feel less elite or special.

 

just my observations on the original post, and without completely reworking what a terminator squad fundamentally is, I’m not really sure how GW can address that.

Nah, it has nothing to do with FOC Slot.   They were the "face of the franchise" this expansion, but they didn't get any rules support for it.   They didn't add a Terminator Lieutenant (or Terminator Lietuenant pretending to be an Apothecary).  Even the subfactions who had one lost or will likely lose the one they already had.  The Biologis is key to making the Aggressor wombo-combos work.   He is the force multiplier by having one of the special rules built in, and a generic "Warlord Trait" enhancement slot to pile on.  Aggressors and Terminators are fairly similar/interchangeable until you get to this point.  Power Fist.  4ish small arms shots per model at shortish range.  Higher T, durable armor save.   But, again the difference is in the wombo-combo.  Terminators can buy their way to 10, Aggressors can perform like 10 with a simple Leader-into-Combo purchase. 

[SvenIronhand]

12 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Nah, it has nothing to do with FOC Slot.   They were the "face of the franchise" this expansion, but they didn't get any rules support for it.   They didn't add a Terminator Lieutenant (or Terminator Lietuenant pretending to be an Apothecary).  Even the subfactions who had one lost or will likely lose the one they already had.  The Biologis is key to making the Aggressor wombo-combos work.   He is the force multiplier by having one of the special rules built in, and a generic "Warlord Trait" enhancement slot to pile on.  Aggressors and Terminators are fairly similar/interchangeable until you get to this point.  Power Fist.  4ish small arms shots per model at shortish range.  Higher T, durable armor save.   But, again the difference is in the wombo-combo.  Terminators can buy their way to 10, Aggressors can perform like 10 with a simple Leader-into-Combo purchase. 

As an SW Successor player, the wombo-combo is locked out to me for at least the time being, so Terminators (and the WG Termies) look more appealing. I think that people are down on them unnecessarily. What they lack in firepower, they make up for with versatility and durability. They're hard to shift and they can fill more roles than the Aggressors can.

I prefer a squad kitted out with CML/Sergeant CF for general purpose duties and a bit of 'big game hunting' on the side. If I could source the melee weapons and bodies, I'd be highly amenable to the WG Termies w/ melee weaponry. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

17 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Nah, it has nothing to do with FOC Slot.   They were the "face of the franchise" this expansion, but they didn't get any rules support for it.   They didn't add a Terminator Lieutenant (or Terminator Lietuenant pretending to be an Apothecary).  Even the subfactions who had one lost or will likely lose the one they already had.  The Biologis is key to making the Aggressor wombo-combos work.   He is the force multiplier by having one of the special rules built in, and a generic "Warlord Trait" enhancement slot to pile on.  Aggressors and Terminators are fairly similar/interchangeable until you get to this point.  Power Fist.  4ish small arms shots per model at shortish range.  Higher T, durable armor save.   But, again the difference is in the wombo-combo.  Terminators can buy their way to 10, Aggressors can perform like 10 with a simple Leader-into-Combo purchase. 

Being the face of the edition release means nothing.

 

theyve gotten a new captain and chappy for terminators.

and yes FOC has a lot to do with it because most armies are now chocked full of elite/specialist units of some sort or another. 
how special can terminators feel in an army full of 3 units of BGVs, and 3 units of aggressors marching up the battlefield next to terminators?

how do they feel special with inceptors being almost as tough, with better shooting and (now) arguably better than terminators within engagement range?

 

how special can terminators feel when there’s 3 units of bullgryn, and 3 of ogryn on the opposing side?

 

most armies have a rough terminator equivalent or two in their codex, so how special can terminators feel when there’s half a dozen ‘terminators’ on each side?

 

the only way to make them feel special under such circumstances is simply to make them absurdly OP, or make every other ‘terminator’ unit extremely under powered.

 

things tend to feel special when they’re unique. Terminators are no longer unique with out a restrictions on what units an army can take.

 

SM palaver wants a veteran unit with an invuln? BGV are an option, as are VGV.

want a high T powerfist shooty unit? Aggressors.

want a tough, scary unit to drop in nearly right on top of an enemy unit? You’ve got inceptors.

 

there are so many units fighting for the same niches that terminators fill and they can all be taken in a single game.

 

so what do you think would make terminators feel like the special little snowflakes they are?

[HeadlessCross]

49 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Being the face of the edition release means nothing.

 

theyve gotten a new captain and chappy for terminators.

and yes FOC has a lot to do with it because most armies are now chocked full of elite/specialist units of some sort or another. 
how special can terminators feel in an army full of 3 units of BGVs, and 3 units of aggressors marching up the battlefield next to terminators?

how do they feel special with inceptors being almost as tough, with better shooting and (now) arguably better than terminators within engagement range?

 

how special can terminators feel when there’s 3 units of bullgryn, and 3 of ogryn on the opposing side?

 

most armies have a rough terminator equivalent or two in their codex, so how special can terminators feel when there’s half a dozen ‘terminators’ on each side?

 

the only way to make them feel special under such circumstances is simply to make them absurdly OP, or make every other ‘terminator’ unit extremely under powered.

 

things tend to feel special when they’re unique. Terminators are no longer unique with out a restrictions on what units an army can take.

 

SM palaver wants a veteran unit with an invuln? BGV are an option, as are VGV.

want a high T powerfist shooty unit? Aggressors.

want a tough, scary unit to drop in nearly right on top of an enemy unit? You’ve got inceptors.

 

there are so many units fighting for the same niches that terminators fill and they can all be taken in a single game.

 

so what do you think would make terminators feel like the special little snowflakes they are?

You could entirely remove Aggressors and Baldeguard and everyone still wouldn't take Terminators because their performance isn't elite. That has nothing to do with your yearning for the FOC. 

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

and yes FOC has a lot to do with it because most armies are now chocked full of elite/specialist units of some sort or another. 

 

I don't think the FOC is relevant since that argument affects all units. People do take BGVs and Aggressors because they do a job well at their points and synergise with various buffs that are available (particularly in the case of Aggressors). Reintroducing a FOC would not improve Terminators in any way. It might slightly reduce the Elite opposition they face (although not much since the FOC had 6 Elite slots) but it would not magically make Terminators a better choice than anything else.

 

Terminators need either a rules boost , a points drop or some better synergies to be worth taking. The issue is their performance compared to other options in the Marine codex and the opposition, not the availability of Elites in general.

[Karhedron]

13 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

As an SW Successor player, the wombo-combo is locked out to me for at least the time being, so Terminators (and the WG Termies) look more appealing.

 

Interestingly, SWs can play the wombo-combo on Terminators since we have a Terminator Lt in the shape of the Wolf Guard Battle Leader in TDA. This means we can proc the Lethal Hits + Crits on a 5+ combo on a squad of 10 Deep Striking Terminators. We will probably lose the combo when our codex drops but since that is not likely to happen before Christmas, we can have some fun with it in the meantime.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

You could entirely remove Aggressors and Baldeguard and everyone still wouldn't take Terminators because their performance isn't elite. That has nothing to do with your yearning for the FOC. 

Invuln saves are elite, chainfists/powerfists on every model is elite.

 

so what kind of OP rules would you like them to have to ‘feel elite’?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I don't think the FOC is relevant since that argument affects all units. People do take BGVs and Aggressors because they do a job well at their points and synergise with various buffs that are available (particularly in the case of Aggressors). Reintroducing a FOC would not improve Terminators in any way. It might slightly reduce the Elite opposition they face (although not much since the FOC had 6 Elite slots) but it would not magically make Terminators a better choice than anything else.

 

Terminators need either a rules boost , a points drop or some better synergies to be worth taking. The issue is their performance compared to other options in the Marine codex and the opposition, not the availability of Elites in general.

I never said they’d get better, but people are complaining that terminators don’t ’feel Elite’ whatever that means. 
 

having a limit of 6 elite slots reduces the number of elite units compared to an army that is all or almost all elite units.

 

pretty sure I can fill or mostly fill a 2k list with terminators, aggressors, BGVs, VGVs, SGVs, and if you play one of the big 4, you can definitely fill a whole 2k list with elite units, meaning ‘elite’ won’t feel ‘elite’

 

no one has explained what rules they think terminators should have that would make them feel elite, at what points cost, and without breaking the game.

[danodan123]

They're supposed to be durable right? 

 

Why not give them a 5+ feel no pain to reaaally miff off Death Guard players :)

Edited July 11 by danodan123

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 minutes ago, danodan123 said:

They're supposed to be durable right? 

 

Why not give them a 5+ feel no pain to reaaally miff off Death Guard players :)

Not sure if sarcasm or not, but T5 2+/4++ 3W is pretty durable 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

So let me get this straight, BS3+ 2+ agains OOM target, WS3+ with powerfists, 2+/4++, 3W and free use of rapid ingress strat isnt elite enough?

[Sir Clausel]

For me i would rsther want them to have better rules. More damage and tankier. Orfcourse their points should match that.

Something along the lines of this. 

T6 and 4w base. 4 attacks with str 10 power fists. Storm bolters always has 4 shots and ap -1. Hammers need to hit on 3s and also be str 10 or something like that. 

50 points per model maybe?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 minutes ago, Sir Clausel said:

For me i would rsther want them to have better rules. More damage and tankier. Orfcourse their points should match that.

Something along the lines of this. 

T6 and 4w base. 4 attacks with str 10 power fists. Storm bolters always has 4 shots and ap -1. Hammers need to hit on 3s and also be str 10 or something like that. 

50 points per model maybe?

Why should their powerfists be any stronger than an aggressor’s or a captain’s, or a sgt’s?

 

why should they be tankier than a custodian?

 

 

 

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

no one has explained what rules they think terminators should have that would make them feel elite, at what points cost, and without breaking the game.

 

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Terminators need either a rules boost , a points drop or some better synergies to be worth taking. The issue is their performance compared to other options in the Marine codex and the opposition, not the availability of Elites in general.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

 

 

That’s not explaining what rules they think terminators should have it’s just a statement they need better rules

[jaxom]

33 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That’s not explaining what rules they think terminators should have it’s just a statement they need better rules

 

On 5/30/2024 at 11:15 AM, jaxom said:

What would I do if I were GW tweaking Terminator rules?

Terminators are the elite of the elite. They deploy to take on the largest threats of an enemy force. Their skills are unmatched and complimented with weapons and armour inhabited by the most ancient and bellicose of machine-spirits.

1. Add the Sustained Hits 1 rule to their Storm Bolter profile.
2. Add the Lethal Hits 1 rule to their Power fist profile and/or increase Power fist strength to 10.
3. Add Sustained Hits 2 to their Lightning claw profile
4. Change the Fury of the First rule to read, "Each time a model in this unit makes an attack that targets your Oath of Moment target, an unmodified roll of 5+ scores a Critical Hit and an unmodified wound roll of 5+ scores a Critical Wound."
5. Replace Terminator Assault with Fury of the First.

 

 

 

 

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That’s not explaining what rules they think terminators should have it’s just a statement they need better rules

 

There's been a whole thread of ideas. I don't think anyone is interested I just rehashing them all over again. You even interacted with plenty of those ideas. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

37 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

There's been a whole thread of ideas. I don't think anyone is interested I just rehashing them all over again. You even interacted with plenty of those ideas. 

Scanned through the thread again and in 3 pages I see like 2 actual suggestions.

1. give them a 3++ because a 4++ somehow isn’t good enough

2. raise their T so that they’re tankier than a standard custodes…who are supposed to be even more elite than terminators…

 

so yes something like 99% of this post is people just crying and complaining that fluff doesn’t match crunch.

Edited July 11 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Invuln saves are elite, chainfists/powerfists on every model is elite.

 

so what kind of OP rules would you like them to have to ‘feel elite’?

The same thing I always suggest in regards to Space Marine Vets in general, and that's an increase on their hit values. Making all Vet Terminators (so to not include the base Grey Knight Terminators) to WS/BS2+ makes for a unit less reliant on rerolls or character buffs, but still a good target regardless. Start with that and see where it goes. 

 

And no those things don't necessarily mean "elite". In terms of design space, Custodes Guardians aren't elite in their own codex, yet meet all your requirements. You gotta think of the design space. 

[Minsc]

I think the largest problem I have with Terminators by far isn't their durability, it's their lacklustre damage output. (That and their borderline pointless special rule.)
S4 AP- Stormbolters and S8 AP2 D2 Powerfists doesn't really scare anything other than GEQs and MEQs and... who cares? It's not like SM are in short supply of anti-GEQ and anti-MEQ units in  their roster. I expect my 35 ppm *Terminators* to actually be scary against other scary targets, that has always been their point. 

 

I fielded 10 + a Libriarian very recently against Tyranids and they did basically jack sheit all game. Some Bolterfire here and there to pick off the odd Gargoyle and Gaunt (not like Bolters would do anything against any other 'Nid infantry except maybe Genestealers anyway) and when the entire unit charged a Haruspex (I think it was, but it doesn't really matter, some sort of T10+ monster) and just bounced, I remember actually sighing loudly and going "holy hell, Terminators are actually terrible" beneath my breath...

The problem is that you can't really buff (Storm)bolters or Powerfists, since these weapons are so heavily ingrained in the army already, so you'd have to come up with a """brand new""" weapon so you could make a targeted buff against Terminators specifically (and I guess Assault Terminators as well, they have similar issues with their S8 Thunder Hammers), like "Terminator Bolters" and "Terminator Fists/Hammers" that perhaps have some combination of improved S, AP or D, or some  built in special rule (like Lethal Hits since it's impossible for Terminators to actually get Lethal Hits right now.)

Something that comes to mind while writing this is Aggressors, and how they, despite being equipped with basically the same weapons as Terminators (powerfists and bolters) actually work because they have exactly what I just wrote that I want my Terminators to have above: Special rules that turns their rather unimpressive weaponry into something that enemy units might actually fear:  They have Twin-Linked on both their fists and bolters/flamers *and* they can have 1 point of AP on their Bolters/Flamers due to having a special rule that's actually useful in Close-Quarters Firepower.

I'm fine with Terminators going up in cost if they gain rules that actually turn them into an actual threat again, because currently, they aren't.
They just look threatening and have a threatening name.... 

Edited July 11 by Minsc

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

36 minutes ago, Minsc said:

I think the largest problem I have with Terminators by far isn't their durability, it's their lacklustre damage output. (That and their borderline pointless special rule.)
S4 AP- Stormbolters and S8 AP2 D2 Powerfists doesn't really scare anything other than GEQs and MEQs and... who cares? It's not like SM are in short supply of anti-GEQ and anti-MEQ units in  their roster. I expect my 35 ppm *Terminators* to actually be scary against other scary targets, that has always been their point. 

 

I fielded 10 + a Libriarian very recently against Tyranids and they did basically jack sheit all game. Some Bolterfire here and there to pick off the odd Gargoyle and Gaunt (not like Bolters would do anything against any other 'Nid infantry except maybe Genestealers anyway) and when the entire unit charged a Haruspex (I think it was, but it doesn't really matter, some sort of T10+ monster) and just bounced, I remember actually sighing loudly and going "holy hell, Terminators are actually terrible" beneath my breath...

The problem is that you can't really buff (Storm)bolters or Powerfists, since these weapons are so heavily ingrained in the army already, so you'd have to come up with a """brand new""" weapon so you could make a targeted buff against Terminators specifically (and I guess Assault Terminators as well, they have similar issues with their S8 Thunder Hammers), like "Terminator Bolters" and "Terminator Fists/Hammers" that perhaps have some combination of improved S, AP or D, or some  built in special rule (like Lethal Hits since it's impossible for Terminators to actually get Lethal Hits right now.)

Something that comes to mind while writing this is Aggressors, and how they, despite being equipped with basically the same weapons as Terminators (powerfists and bolters) actually work because they have exactly what I just wrote that I want my Terminators to have above: Special rules that turns their rather unimpressive weaponry into something that enemy units might actually fear:  They have Twin-Linked on both their fists and bolters/flamers *and* they can have 1 point of AP on their Bolters/Flamers due to having a special rule that's actually useful in Close-Quarters Firepower.

I'm fine with Terminators going up in cost if they gain rules that actually turn them into an actual threat again, because currently, they aren't.
They just look threatening and have a threatening name.... 

they could buff the weapons.

that’s the exact sort of reason they put weapons on each card and there’s no index of weapon profiles there used to be.

 

[Minsc]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

they could buff the weapons.

that’s the exact sort of reason they put weapons on each card and there’s no index of weapon profiles there used to be.

 

They could, but they shouldn't buff all forms of Powerfists and Bolters just because Terminators need a damage increase.

[DemonGSides]

I could also see some sort of buff that made them draw fire.  No one's gonna bother shooting them if they don't have to, but if they had an ability that could force someone to target them it could go a long way towards fulfilling the fantasy of "walking tank" while not necessarily boosting their damage output through the roof.

It'd probably not be enough, but we're spitballing here.

Edited July 12 by DemonGSides