Games Workshop has once again dropped the ball with Terminators.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

57 minutes ago, Minsc said:

They could, but they shouldn't buff all forms of Powerfists and Bolters just because Terminators need a damage increase.

That’s literally the exact reason they put weapon profiles on data cards so a bolter could mean different things on different units within the codex.

 

they just haven’t actually followed through with that very well. 

[Beta galactosidase]

 

 

8 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

The same thing I always suggest in regards to Space Marine Vets in general, and that's an increase on their hit values. Making all Vet Terminators (so to not include the base Grey Knight Terminators) to WS/BS2+ makes for a unit less reliant on rerolls or character

 

A lot of people do intuit this as an idea.  However it's also a bonus that's irrelevant in my opinion.

You expect to get an extra 0.028 of a wound against marines if your bolt gun shot to-hit roll goes from 3+  to 2+. 

 

 

I have the idea that when we're reading and replying to posts that we've thought about it more.  If you and I were planning a game against each other I don't think we'd notice the difference with 2+ Terminators.  We would need a much better idea

 

18 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Interestingly, SWs can play the wombo-combo on Terminators since we have a Terminator Lt in the shape of the Wolf Guard Battle Leader in TDA. This means we can proc the Lethal Hits + Crits on a 5+ combo on a squad of 10 Deep Striking Terminators. We will probably lose the combo when our codex drops but since that is not likely to happen before Christmas, we can have some fun with it in the meantime.

 

 

It's always insane to me that in order to stretch the buffs and get a workable unit, we have to use a 10 model unit. 

 

It's a super valuable asset meant to be used in cramped spaces.  There are more than a few places in the background that accommodate this by saying a full squad is five Terminators and a fully terminator 1st Company is 20 squads of five.  The rules just don't accommodate that well. 

 

As personal preference I'm too annoyed by the idea to use a squad of ten.  Even if they're painted as two squads and only played as one, they just shouldn't be in the same quarter of the board.

 

 

Edited July 12 by Beta galactosidase
was wrong

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

they could buff the weapons.

that’s the exact sort of reason they put weapons on each card and there’s no index of weapon profiles there used to be.

 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That’s literally the exact reason they put weapon profiles on data cards so a bolter could mean different things on different units within the codex.

 

they just haven’t actually followed through with that very well. 

 

  

On 5/30/2024 at 11:15 AM, jaxom said:

1. Add the Sustained Hits 1 rule to their Storm Bolter profile.
2. Add the Lethal Hits 1 rule to their Power fist profile and/or increase Power fist strength to 10.
3. Add Sustained Hits 2 to their Lightning claw profile
4. Change the Fury of the First rule to read, "Each time a model in this unit makes an attack that targets your Oath of Moment target, an unmodified roll of 5+ scores a Critical Hit and an unmodified wound roll of 5+ scores a Critical Wound."
5. Replace Terminator Assault with Fury of the First.

 

 

 

Edited July 12 by jaxom

[Sir Clausel]

13 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Why should their powerfists be any stronger than an aggressor’s or a captain’s, or a sgt’s?

 

why should they be tankier than a custodian?

 

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That’s literally the exact reason they put weapon profiles on data cards so a bolter could mean different things on different units within the codex.

 

they just haven’t actually followed through with that very well. 

 

I feel you are contradicting yourself here.

 

But to explain my reasoning here. 

Terminator armor grants more power than regular power armor. That could mean more strength on the power fists and other weapons. 

Yes they should be tankier than current custodes. But i think custodians should be stronger, tankier and fewer than their current rules anyway. But thats a totally different topic.

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, Beta galactosidase said:

 

 

 

A lot of people do intuit this as an idea.  However it's also a bonus of less than 4%

You expect to get an extra 0.028 of a wound against marines if your bolt gun shot to-hit roll goes from 3+  to 2+. 

 

 

I have the idea that when we're reading and replying to posts that we've thought about it more.  If you and I were planning a game against each other I don't think we'd notice the difference with 2+ Terminators.  We would need a much better idea

 

 

 

It's always insane to me that in order to stretch the buffs and get a workable unit, we have to use a 10 model unit. 

 

It's a super valuable asset meant to be used in cramped spaces.  There are more than a few places in the background that accommodate this by saying a full squad is five Terminators and a fully terminator 1st Company is 20 squads of five.  The rules just don't accommodate that well. 

 

As personal preference I'm too annoyed by the idea to use a squad of ten.  Even if they're painted as two squads and only played as one, they just shouldn't be in the same quarter of the board.

It isn't just about the bonus "only" being 4%. It's also to help curb any modifiers against them. Under my plan, current Thunder Hammers would hit on a 3+. As of right now, if you get a -1 to hit in melee, those same Terminators will on average hit with ONE attack, AKA 10 hits from 10 Terminators. It's pretty ludicrous. A buff to hit instead? That's 15 hits instead if that same -1 was applied. 

 

Then there's the Stealth targets against their range attacks. In rapid fire range for the Storm Bolters, a group of 10 will not even kill two Marines (AKA they can't even kill an Eliminator squad). With this buff, they at minimum kill two dudes with an okay chance to kill all three. 

Keep in mind if course that's not incorporating their Heavy Weapons, but I still think that illustrates a good point with getting those less affected as well. 

 

That's something definitely noticeable in the long run. 

[Beta galactosidase]

I think my response to that is you're right, and its not really contestable.

 

In the case of something like the veteran intercessors upgrade that briefly existed I wouldn't be that interested in 2+.  Terminators are a different story

[HeadlessCross]

5 minutes ago, Beta galactosidase said:

I think my response to that is you're right, and its not really contestable.

 

In the case of something like the veteran intercessors upgrade that briefly existed I wouldn't be that interested in 2+.  Terminators are a different story

If I recall, that upgrade was just +1A/LD. Good if you were doing the melee route (ya know, if you didn't want Vanguard for some reason), but largely useless for the range ones. 

[Warden-Paints]

I know I'm getting on a bit, and I don't understand teen speak, but :cuss: is a wombo-combo? 

[Minsc]

1 hour ago, Warden-Paints said:

I know I'm getting on a bit, and I don't understand teen speak, but is a wombo-combo? 

 

It's when you wombo the combo dawg. Like, a real wombo-combo!

(Depends on the context, but in 40k I'd say it's a powerful combination, basically when units and/or rules synergize really well. Classic example would be to hand out re-roll to wounds on something with Devastating Wounds.)

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Warden-Paints said:

I know I'm getting on a bit, and I don't understand teen speak, but is a wombo-combo? 

A good, powerful combination. For example: 6 Aggressors, a Biologis, and Bolter Discipline.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Warden-Paints said:

I know I'm getting on a bit, and I don't understand teen speak, but is a wombo-combo? 

 

It is when two or more abilities are balanced on their own but when combined synergise to create something far more powerful. The combination that people are referring to in this case is when a Character with Lethal Hits is given the Fire Discipline enhancement. This stacks two powerful abilities (Lethal Hits and Sustained Hits) together with the ability to cause Critical Hits on a 5+ (rather than the normal natural 6) When in the Devastator Doctrine.

 

Apply this to a unit with a bucket of attack dice (e.g. Aggressors) and suddenly you have a unit that can reroll all hits when firing at the Oath of Moment target, All Hits of a 5+ automatically wound (thanks to Lethal Hits), they also generate additional Hits (thanks to Sustained Hits). Then all the normal hits get rerolls to Wound (thanks to Twin-linked) and can also get Ap-1 when shooting at the closest target (Aggressor special rule).

 

This would be pretty good if it was just a once-per-game ability but the Gladius Taskforce also has a stratagem called "Adaptive Strategy" which allows you to put a unit in the Doctrine of your choice meaning you can activate this ability every turn provided you have a Command Point spare. Or you can trigger it for free by putting a Gravis Captain in the squad with his Rites of Battle. And just as backup the squad has twin-linked power fists in melee meaning you really don't want to mess with them.

 

And this is why people rarely take Terminators. The existence of this unit and combination of abilities basically invalidate Terminators by doing everything that they do but better. The only thing Aggressors lack is Deep Strike and an Invulnerable save. Even these are not huge limitations since Land Raiders and Repulsors are pretty good these days. Or if you are playing Ultrmarines you can take the special Character Uriel Ventriss to give them Deep Strike.

[DemonGSides]

Or a BA Libby dread to huck em up the board. Lots of fun.

 

I wish terminators were better. But aggressors just shred. 

[HeadlessCross]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

It is when two or more abilities are balanced on their own but when combined synergise to create something far more powerful. The combination that people are referring to in this case is when a Character with Lethal Hits is given the Fire Discipline enhancement. This stacks two powerful abilities (Lethal Hits and Sustained Hits) together with the ability to cause Critical Hits on a 5+ (rather than the normal natural 6) When in the Devastator Doctrine.

 

Apply this to a unit with a bucket of attack dice (e.g. Aggressors) and suddenly you have a unit that can reroll all hits when firing at the Oath of Moment target, All Hits of a 5+ automatically wound (thanks to Lethal Hits), they also generate additional Hits (thanks to Sustained Hits). Then all the normal hits get rerolls to Wound (thanks to Twin-linked) and can also get Ap-1 when shooting at the closest target (Aggressor special rule).

 

This would be pretty good if it was just a once-per-game ability but the Gladius Taskforce also has a stratagem called "Adaptive Strategy" which allows you to put a unit in the Doctrine of your choice meaning you can activate this ability every turn provided you have a Command Point spare. Or you can trigger it for free by putting a Gravis Captain in the squad with his Rites of Battle. And just as backup the squad has twin-linked power fists in melee meaning you really don't want to mess with them.

 

And this is why people rarely take Terminators. The existence of this unit and combination of abilities basically invalidate Terminators by doing everything that they do but better. The only thing Aggressors lack is Deep Strike and an Invulnerable save. Even these are not huge limitations since Land Raiders and Repulsors are pretty good these days. Or if you are playing Ultrmarines you can take the special Character Uriel Ventriss to give them Deep Strike.

As a side note and being off topic, the Gravis Apothecary not bringing units back from the dead is super dumb. I'd rather that than the random offensive buff since it makes more sense. 

[Karhedron]

45 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

As a side note and being off topic, the Gravis Apothecary not bringing units back from the dead is super dumb. I'd rather that than the random offensive buff since it makes more sense. 

 

Whilst I completely agree, I can see why they didn't do that for balance reasons. An Apothecary's value is directly proportional to the value and durability of the models it brings back. Resurrecting expensive and durable models like Aggressors or Eradicators might be overpowered. 

[HeadlessCross]

5 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Whilst I completely agree, I can see why they didn't do that for balance reasons. An Apothecary's value is directly proportional to the value and durability of the models it brings back. Resurrecting expensive and durable models like Aggressors or Eradicators might be overpowered. 

It's overpowered if the character is cheap as chips. The Apothecary doesn't get value until you bring back two models from the dead. How often does a squad like that live for more than two turns to begin with? 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's overpowered if the character is cheap as chips. The Apothecary doesn't get value until you bring back two models from the dead. How often does a squad like that live for more than two turns to begin with? 

1. Most games my aggressors survive until at least T3 and I run a minimum sized squad

2. A lot more likely if they can bring one back at the start of T2

[DemonGSides]

4 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

As a side note and being off topic, the Gravis Apothecary not bringing units back from the dead is super dumb. I'd rather that than the random offensive buff since it makes more sense. 

 

Eh, I get the point that "apothecary" generally meant "Space Marine Medic", but this guy is more like a field researcher.  Probably should've called him something other than Apothecary Biologis; could've gone with Biologis Scientatus or something and then wouldn't have the Apothecary hang up.

I  do like the expansion of Apothecaries to be more than just medics and doctors though.

[Jolemai]

[Minsc]

^Well put.

I don't see the Biologis as an "Apothecary" in the traditional sense of the word as much as a (mad) field scientist. I mean, the guy wants to *punch* stuff to death in melee with his bare hands for one of his special rules to activate, not very MD of him. The name is pretty misleading I'd say. 

With that said, I honestly prefer the Biologis as a pure support character over the regular Apothecary. Reviving models is nice and all, but it does nothing if your opponent ignores the unit (or wipes it out in one turn), while Lethal Hits and a more than average OC (I did a literal double take when I saw the Biologis has OC 3 by default) that can become thrice as good will more or less always do something. 

While the Biologis ultimately is a Lethal Hits-bandaid due to the lack of Lt's for the Gravis units, it's a god damn effective bandaid. 

Now we just need for GW to give us a way to give Lethal Hits to Terminators...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Minsc said:

^Well put.

I don't see the Biologis as an "Apothecary" in the traditional sense of the word as much as a (mad) field scientist. I mean, the guy wants to *punch* stuff to death in melee with his bare hands for one of his special rules to activate, not very MD of him. The name is pretty misleading I'd say. 

With that said, I honestly prefer the Biologis as a pure support character over the regular Apothecary. Reviving models is nice and all, but it does nothing if your opponent ignores the unit (or wipes it out in one turn), while Lethal Hits and a more than average OC (I did a literal double take when I saw the Biologis has OC 3 by default) that can become thrice as good will more or less always do something. 

While the Biologis ultimately is a Lethal Hits-bandaid due to the lack of Lt's for the Gravis units, it's a god damn effective bandaid. 

Now we just need for GW to give us a way to give Lethal Hits to Terminators...

Idk about misnamed necessarily. An apothecary historically is someone who made and prepared drugs. 
 

I’d say someone researching medicine would qualify as an apothecary.

[Paladin777]

1 hour ago, Minsc said:

Now we just need for GW to give us a way to give Lethal Hits to Terminators...

Laughs in Blood Angels...

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Idk about misnamed necessarily. An apothecary historically is someone who made and prepared drugs. 
 

I’d say someone researching medicine would qualify as an apothecary.

 

I think historical more in the "History of the game" than "History of Real Life".  He's obviously named for the latter, but the game has had a pretty strong identity for what an apothecary does for 9 editions before this with variation but a pretty consistent theme.

[Tacitus]

On 7/12/2024 at 3:47 AM, Karhedron said:

 

It is when two or more abilities are balanced on their own but when combined synergise to create something far more powerful. The combination that people are referring to in this case is when a Character with Lethal Hits is given the Fire Discipline enhancement. This stacks two powerful abilities (Lethal Hits and Sustained Hits) together with the ability to cause Critical Hits on a 5+ (rather than the normal natural 6) When in the Devastator Doctrine.

 

Apply this to a unit with a bucket of attack dice (e.g. Aggressors) and suddenly you have a unit that can reroll all hits when firing at the Oath of Moment target, All Hits of a 5+ automatically wound (thanks to Lethal Hits), they also generate additional Hits (thanks to Sustained Hits). Then all the normal hits get rerolls to Wound (thanks to Twin-linked) and can also get Ap-1 when shooting at the closest target (Aggressor special rule).

 

This would be pretty good if it was just a once-per-game ability but the Gladius Taskforce also has a stratagem called "Adaptive Strategy" which allows you to put a unit in the Doctrine of your choice meaning you can activate this ability every turn provided you have a Command Point spare. Or you can trigger it for free by putting a Gravis Captain in the squad with his Rites of Battle. And just as backup the squad has twin-linked power fists in melee meaning you really don't want to mess with them.

 

And this is why people rarely take Terminators. The existence of this unit and combination of abilities basically invalidate Terminators by doing everything that they do but better. The only thing Aggressors lack is Deep Strike and an Invulnerable save. Even these are not huge limitations since Land Raiders and Repulsors are pretty good these days. Or if you are playing Ultrmarines you can take the special Character Uriel Ventriss to give them Deep Strike.

Yeah this is a fairly good explanation and its even missing a few of the combo bits.  Devastator allows Advance and Shoot thus 18" Assault Bolters + 5" movement + Advance roll, plus the other (Battle Tactic) Strat Storm of Fire - Ignores Cover + Dev Doctrine for an additional -1 to armor save.   6ish shots per 36 per 6, 12 miss, 12 double up (Before OOM), 36 hits, 12 auto wound, 24 roll to wound 8 will critically wound, all of them with a -2 to armor save.  Theoretically this takes 2CP per unit to fuel, but between Rites of Battle and/or Inspiring Leader from Calgar, It only costs you the 1 from your turn, leaving the 1 from their turn to charge AOC etc.  You're putting 20 -2 armor saves on I-Dont-Care-What-Your-Toughness-Is in a turn even before the attached characters add their little bit, plus Calgar's group gets to charge and punch assuming anything is left alive.  Its been a while since I worked this out so I think I'm still missing something, I thought you could get them to -3 to armor save but I don't remember how.  Maybe it was Calgar getting 4 -3 D2's, and I'm misremembering. Not bad for 30 points, and 2 but feels like 1 CP per battle round.  A less extreme example is the Phobos Libby leading a unit of Infiltrators.  You can't shoot me from outside 12, and you can't deep strike within 12 - and even if you could you're -1 to hit me. 

 

Edit to Add:  Oh yeah, I remember one of the things I forgot.  Calgar/Captain leads Aggressors.  Uriel Ventris leads something else, possibly throw away like the Company Heroes.  Calgar and his Aggressors are now a Deep Strike Bomb. 

On 7/12/2024 at 9:26 AM, HeadlessCross said:

As a side note and being off topic, the Gravis Apothecary not bringing units back from the dead is super dumb. I'd rather that than the random offensive buff since it makes more sense. 

At its most basic level the problem is not that the Biologis can't heal people.  The problem is they named him an Apothecary Biologis instead of a Gravis Lieutenant, which is what he is. 

Edited July 15 by Tacitus

[HeadlessCross]

10 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Yeah this is a fairly good explanation and its even missing a few of the combo bits.  Devastator allows Advance and Shoot thus 18" Assault Bolters + 5" movement + Advance roll, plus the other (Battle Tactic) Strat Storm of Fire - Ignores Cover + Dev Doctrine for an additional -1 to armor save.   6ish shots per 36 per 6, 12 miss, 12 double up (Before OOM), 36 hits, 12 auto wound, 24 roll to wound 8 will critically wound, all of them with a -2 to armor save.  Theoretically this takes 2CP per unit to fuel, but between Rites of Battle and/or Inspiring Leader from Calgar, It only costs you the 1 from your turn, leaving the 1 from their turn to charge AOC etc.  You're putting 20 -2 armor saves on I-Dont-Care-What-Your-Toughness-Is in a turn even before the attached characters add their little bit, plus Calgar's group gets to charge and punch assuming anything is left alive.  Its been a while since I worked this out so I think I'm still missing something, I thought you could get them to -3 to armor save but I don't remember how.  Maybe it was Calgar getting 4 -3 D2's, and I'm misremembering. Not bad for 30 points, and 2 but feels like 1 CP per battle round.  A less extreme example is the Phobos Libby leading a unit of Infiltrators.  You can't shoot me from outside 12, and you can't deep strike within 12 - and even if you could you're -1 to hit me. 

 

Edit to Add:  Oh yeah, I remember one of the things I forgot.  Calgar/Captain leads Aggressors.  Uriel Ventris leads something else, possibly throw away like the Company Heroes.  Calgar and his Aggressors are now a Deep Strike Bomb. 

At its most basic level the problem is not that the Biologis can't heal people.  The problem is they named him an Apothecary Biologis instead of a Gravis Lieutenant, which is what he is. 

He also has the Ancient vibe with the OC stuff too. It just feels all over the place. 

[Karhedron]

17 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

He also has the Ancient vibe with the OC stuff too. It just feels all over the place. 

 

My understanding is that the model designs come first and the rules are developed afterwards. I think he started life as a true Gravis Apothecary but his availability coincided with the design decision to remove revival abilities from 3-wound Marine models (e.g. Deathwing Apothecary). This left him without a role so they slapped on rules to turn him into a sort of pseudo Lt.