Anvil Siege Force and a Lot of Bolt Rifles

[jaxom]

I had a thought the other day about how Bolt Rifles (and the Heavy variant) are heavy weapons. Unlike most heavy weapons, they're also assault weapons so they allow a degree of mobility one would not otherwise have. I decided to play around with a list that goes heavy (heh) on utilizing them and the +1 wound bonus.

 

Battleline (1280 points)

Three 10x Heavy Intercessor Squads - Stationary: wounds T4 on a 2+ and even gets to a 5+ on anything T10 or higher. 2+ save on an objective is quite nice. Hail of Vengeance and No Threat Too Great help with deadliness.

Two 5x Heavy Intercessor Squads - See above.

Two 10x Intercessor Squads - Use Advance to push forward and try to move block units away from your HI Squads. Keep stationary when possible, but they're more of your utility pieces.

Two 5x Intercessor Squad - See above.

 

Force Multipliers (210)

Apothecary Biologis w/Architect of War - goes with one of the 10x HI Squads; use with Battle Drill Recall whenever the squad is stationary.

Two Librarians - One for each 10x Intercessor Squad, 4++ helps a lot with Intercessor survivability.

 

Assault/Counter-Punch (505 points)

Kayvaan Shrike - could be replaced with a JP Captain, but he adds some nice utility with his special rules; allowing one AIwJP Squad to pop off the board and makes them untargetable outside 12".

Captain with Jump Pack - Rites of Battle for one of the AIwJP and, of course, Finest Hour.

Two 10x Assault Intercessors with Jump Pack Squads.

 

That's 90+ marine bodies, 180 wounds on the Battleline units alone. Would it be worth dropping some of the 5x squads to get more characters? Maybe swap the two 5x Intercessors with 5x Infiltrators (marksman carbines are heavy -though lack AP - and they have their screen bubble) and either a second Biologis or a unit of 5x Scouts?

 

Or, more generally, what do folks think?

[Karhedron]

I really like it. Infiltrators would also potentially work well with their forward deployment, Omniscramblers and Heavy Marksman bolt carbines.

[AutumnEffect]

I really like this too. I think it'd be really fun to try out.

I think taking the squads of Infiltrators for the deep strike screen is downright necessary though to try and counter fast assault units putting pressure on you. I'd honestly consider taking 3x5 squads of them to get as much coverage as possible. I don't really think it needs more characters than what you've got.

[jpwyrm]

Well, this is leaning quite heavily on Battleline units to say the least. In fact, I think you have a little bit too much of those and not enough teeth to make them work. It's true Boltrifles really benefits from the Detachment special rules, but you also have to ask if they're worth it in mass? The lack of AP boosting mechanics really hempers the overall performance of Boltrifles on any target worth protecting for you opponent. Cover + Armour of Contemps equivalent will drastically lower the output of a 10-man Heavy Intercessor squad. Even with Igrone Cover, the AoC eats the -1 AP of their rifle and heavy bolter and the target is back to it's native armour save. They are not bad per se, but they won't kill the hard stuff coming at you - you need more efficient way of killing vehicles and elite infantry.

 

You could probably cut close to half of what you had in mind and still have an army that invests heavily on battleline. Say, 2 x 10 HI, 2 x 5 Intercessors would probably do the trick. Use the remaining points to get reliable killing power like Gladiator Lancers, Eradicators, Vindicators... might even be a good opportunity to flex a Devastator Squad with Razorback. That small package can rush into position, get out and shoot a juicy target with everyone getting reroll to wounds. Not bad for 215 points. Once you're there, the Dev can stay put and enjoy +1 to hit, +1 to Wound and Ignore Cover thanks to their Signum.

 

The  Battle Drill Recal and No threat too Great are two good stratagems that are Battleline - if you plan on using those a lot, I would get Captains in there to make them free once /turn. 

 

Infiltrators could be very usefull in certain matchups (GSC, Grey Knights, Deamons...). One unit with Phobos Librarian will block Deepstrike on a very wide part of the board and in matchups where the Scramblers are not needed, they can do actions and/or bully skirmishers quite well thanks to the psychic power and force sword of the Librarian.

Assault Intercessors should be kept in low numbers and used as roadblocks, skirmishers and mission play units. They are not that lethal in melee once the mortals are done though, so I would keep them for opportunity kills on something your gunline could not finish off. Grenades+Mortal Wounds on the charge also means they can tackle anything from cultists to Knights - just make sure you engage weakened units, not full strenght one or you'll be disappointed with their performance.

[Karhedron]

I agree that the army needs a bit more punch and may I suggest Hellblasters.

 

In a lot of ways, they are like superior Intercessors. Their Plasma guns have the same combo of Assault + Heavy meaning you are either firing while Advancing or standing still and getting both +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound. You can consider adding either a Librarian for the 4++ or an Apothecary for healing fallen models.

[jaxom]

Revised version, at 1990 points:

 

Battleline 

• Two 10x Heavy Intercessor Squads
• One 10x Intercessor Squads
   

Fire-base

• One 10x Hellblaster Squad
• Two Gladiator Lancers
   

Utility

• One 5x Infiltrator Squad

 

Force Multipliers 

• Apothecary Biologis w/Architect of War - Still goes with an HI Squad
• Librarian - Still goes with the Intercessor Squad
• Apothecary - New addition, goes with the Hellblasters
• Captain in Gravis Armour w/MCHBR&MCPW - Goes with the Apothecary Biologis for Rites of Battle on Battle Drill Recall and No Threat Too Great.

 

Assault/Counter-Punch 

Kayvaan Shrike - could be replaced with a JP Captain, but he adds some nice utility with his special rules; allowing one AIwJP Squad to pop off the board and makes them untargetable outside 12".

Captain with Jump Pack - Rites of Battle for one of the AIwJP and, of course, Finest Hour.

Two 10x Assault Intercessors with Jump Pack Squads.

 

I kept the AIwJP on the large side because, similar to what @jpwyrm noted, they're mortal wound bombs for wounded targets (hopefully getting 8 mortal wounds between Grenade and Hammer of Wrath). One thing I was thinking about, was whether the Gravis Captain would be better off as a normal Captain to go with the Hellblasters? Pay 1CP for Battle Drill Recall on the HI Squad, and use Rites of Battle to use the 2CP No Threat Too Great on a more punchy unit.

Edited June 3 by jaxom

[Galron]

I think the jump intercessors should be 5 man units. After having played with them a while, it takes work to get all 5 into engagement range at the end of a charge move, let alone 10. They really arent that great at shock attck either unless you are fighting very light infantry.  They will bounce off anything in power armor. Jump Intercessors especially with Shrike are for scoring, not fighting.

[chapter master 454]

Not fully compiled a version but I do feel like the use of the Jump Intercessors isn't entirely correct and I feel this style does lend better into going for Imperial Fists (who would of guessed) as Tor Garadon actually gives the same benefit as the enchancement so you can have 2 units with Ignore Cover (quite important to have when you lack AP and also making even ap1 stick against 3+ saves).

 

My thoughts are:

2x 10 Heavy Intercessors

Tor Garadon

Gravis Captain (artitect of war)

2x Biologis

2x Stock Intercessors with power fist sergeant

2x 10 man hellblasters

2x Librarians

1x 10 man jump intercessor squad, Power fist and 3x plasma pistol

2x 5 man jump intercessor squads, power fist and 2x plasma pistol

Jump Pack Captain

 

It isn't fully 2k points and so there is wiggle room for other stuff and I am building with my lack of any kind of want to include Primaris Chassis tanks though that does have its benefits as by all accounts Infantry get the privelage of having no movement restrictions.

You're main goal is to set-up at any point a means to get the opponent hammered by Bolter Drill, and if needed No threat too Great (though that I feel should be saved for Hellblasters mostly). The main goals here are to get the chungus brigade onto the central objective with enough back-pedal room and proper formation so that you can just use rigid discipline to catch your opponent, as really this style of army is wanting to get up the field turn 1 then afterwards take a volley of shots before wanting to move again.

Intercessors aren't damage dealers and get nothing, these are ObSec boys and will start as such, both squad toe-tapping homefield before getting set off to do other things.

Both Hellblaster squads get a Librarian each as of all units that need the boost, Hellblasters really are going to get lit up hard and having the hard 50% on saving throws is a major boon and will let them weather the undeniable attack they will need to endure to get their plasma volley off.

We have a whole wing of Jump Intercessors running around and really they are in two groups: the big blob is just to run interference during turns 1 and 2 really. Make it hard to just stay hidden and not get smacked, or acting as the counter charge.

The other 2 squads are just standard action monkey units who will be put into reserve to deep strike down later.

The Chungus Brigade however is a hefty load of wounds to chew through and not exactly a "charge and they fold" unit as now their bulk is backed by ether the gravis captain swinging for the fences with his fist or Tor Garadon doing the same. This means also that if the opponent for some reason throws a unit that is a little lighter than is ideal for the task, they give your Biologis their trigger and they become OC8 and are now the Ultimate Objective Toe-Tapping god (Their singular pinky toe being 8OC is kind of silly).

 

Certainly, I feel there are cutting points, mainly looking at cutting a 5 man intercessor squad and 1 5 man jump intercessor squad. Don't know how I would tune it but there's my thoughts and takes.

 

To be honest, wanted to do something similar and make Anvil work but...just never could get my head to cook something for it.

[Galron]

I would keep the two 5 man jump guys and drop the 10 man and the jump captain. Use those points to bring a Ballistus and Infiltrator squad or a Lancer and something else. I think 4-5 battle line is going to be standard in Nexus Pariah. 

[jaxom]

10 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

Not fully compiled a version but I do feel like the use of the Jump Intercessors isn't entirely correct and I feel this style does lend better into going for Imperial Fists (who would of guessed) as Tor Garadon actually gives the same benefit as the enchancement so you can have 2 units with Ignore Cover (quite important to have when you lack AP and also making even ap1 stick against 3+ saves).

16 hours ago, Galron said:

Jump Intercessors especially with Shrike are for scoring, not fighting.

 

Shrike brings a lot of utility and movement/targeting shenanigans which the list is otherwise low on. One reason I initially had so many bodies in the list was quantity being a quality of its own to overcome the lesser degree of "high quality" damage.

 

10 hours ago, chapter master 454 said:

My thoughts are:

*SNIP*

 

Very similar to what my initial thoughts were when I made the first list. I do like the 4++ on the Hellblasters, but I don't know if CP economy is more important. A normal Captain to go with the Hellblasters to reduce the cost of No Threat Too Great and an Apothecary for resurrection.

 

1 hour ago, Galron said:

I would keep the two 5 man jump guys and drop the 10 man and the jump captain. Use those points to bring a Ballistus and Infiltrator squad or a Lancer and something else. I think 4-5 battle line is going to be standard in Nexus Pariah. 

 

I'll tinker around with the list a bit more and post a list later. It may end up outside the "flood the board with bodies" initial concept, but it could be a better list for tournament play?

[jpwyrm]

1 hour ago, Galron said:

I would keep the two 5 man jump guys and drop the 10 man and the jump captain. Use those points to bring a Ballistus and Infiltrator squad or a Lancer and something else. I think 4-5 battle line is going to be standard in Nexus Pariah. 

 

I agree, the list needs a little more high AP high Dmg attacks. A lancer fits the bill nicely, though I'm very partial to the Vindicator. 4+ shots with Blast, Str 14 AP3 D6 dmg that is not shut down by close combat is so powerful. Shorter range of course, but then again if your opponent does not want to get into threat range, you're doing good.

 

I would not sweat with Hellblasters survival to be honest. What we want is for them to kill their target, so all the help they can get is welcome. Bog standard Lieutenants gives them Lethal and Fall Back and Shoot. Sprinkle some Battle Drill Recal to generate even more hits and it's getting very potent. 4++ is great in theory but when you get hit by high rate of fire low AP guns, it doesn't matter that much. It would be better to expose one unit at a time and make your opponent work to eliminate one before sending another identical plasma ball of death to deal with IMO.

[jaxom]

I took a look at what has heavy weapons in addition to what I've used so far:

• Gladiator Lancer (though already in the second version of the list)
• Suppressors
• Eliminators
• Eradicators
• Desolators
• Repulsor Executioner

Maybe Desolators with superkrak to add more high strength high AP?

[Galron]

Desolators are far too expensive for what are essentially slightly a upgraded dev squad with missile launchers. Have a look at Ballistus as well. They work very well on their own with no support and are fairly cheap and tough.

[Karhedron]

Desolators got hit with a classic GW knee-jerk overreaction. Everyone was spamming them at the start of 10th. They got hit with a triple nerf in that they got hiked to a whopping 200 points, capped at 5-man squads and also got affected by the nerf to indirect fire. IMHO they should at least come down to 150 points for 5.

Edited June 5 by Karhedron

[jaxom]

13 hours ago, Galron said:

Desolators are far too expensive for what are essentially slightly a upgraded dev squad with missile launchers. Have a look at Ballistus as well. They work very well on their own with no support and are fairly cheap and tough.

 

I like the Ballistus, but it doesn't lean into the Anvil perk. Devastators with lascannons or plasma cannons seem like a good fit. 

 

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Desolators got hit with a classic GW knee-jerk overreaction. Everyone was spamming them at the start of 10th. They got hit with a triple nerf in that they got hiked to a whopping 200 points, capped at 5-man squads and also got affected by the nerf to indirect fire. IMHO they should at least come down to 150 points for 5.

 

I agree; I forgot how much their points went up.

[DemonGSides]

RIP desolation squad. Ugly models, ugly rules (I just don't think they make a lot of sense for what the theme of SM is) and an ugly history.

 

Very happy to see them relegated to the dust bin. 

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, jaxom said:

I like the Ballistus, but it doesn't lean into the Anvil perk.

 

I dunno, gaining Heavy means it gets +1 to Hit any turn it does not move. Hitting on 2s it pretty good, especially if you want to shoot at a non-OOM target.

[jaxom]

That’s a good point. With 2 Lancers and a Dreadnought it maybe worth seeing if I can fit a tech marine in the list

[chapter master 454]

Could consider a whirlwind as an artillery option. Might be pricy but does benefit from gaining heavy to help counter act OoLoS penalty. Ultimately in someway you need to commit to the bit with the detachment to at least begin with, otherwise we will rapidly just get back to "why are we doing this again".

 

Sometimes going ham on a gimmick sometimes leads to interesting results.

[Galron]

15 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I dunno, gaining Heavy means it gets +1 to Hit any turn it does not move. Hitting on 2s it pretty good, especially if you want to shoot at a non-OOM target.

Even better, hitting on 2s with a reroll without OoM. Makes it very easily able to operate independently for the main thrust of your army. I try to work them in pairs since they are cheap. The main reason I dislike this edition(too many rerolls making rolling almost pointless) but if it works and everyone else is on the same page, why not?

[Malakithe]

My man trying to make a Green Tide list. Have you looked at Sternguard at all?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 6/3/2024 at 9:35 AM, jpwyrm said:

Well, this is leaning quite heavily on Battleline units to say the least. In fact, I think you have a little bit too much of those and not enough teeth to make them work. It's true Boltrifles really benefits from the Detachment special rules, but you also have to ask if they're worth it in mass? The lack of AP boosting mechanics really hempers the overall performance of Boltrifles on any target worth protecting for you opponent. Cover + Armour of Contemps equivalent will drastically lower the output of a 10-man Heavy Intercessor squad. Even with Igrone Cover, the AoC eats the -1 AP of their rifle and heavy bolter and the target is back to it's native armour save. They are not bad per se, but they won't kill the hard stuff coming at you - you need more efficient way of killing vehicles and elite infantry.

 

You could probably cut close to half of what you had in mind and still have an army that invests heavily on battleline. Say, 2 x 10 HI, 2 x 5 Intercessors would probably do the trick. Use the remaining points to get reliable killing power like Gladiator Lancers, Eradicators, Vindicators... might even be a good opportunity to flex a Devastator Squad with Razorback. That small package can rush into position, get out and shoot a juicy target with everyone getting reroll to wounds. Not bad for 215 points. Once you're there, the Dev can stay put and enjoy +1 to hit, +1 to Wound and Ignore Cover thanks to their Signum.

 

The  Battle Drill Recal and No threat too Great are two good stratagems that are Battleline - if you plan on using those a lot, I would get Captains in there to make them free once /turn. 

 

Infiltrators could be very usefull in certain matchups (GSC, Grey Knights, Deamons...). One unit with Phobos Librarian will block Deepstrike on a very wide part of the board and in matchups where the Scramblers are not needed, they can do actions and/or bully skirmishers quite well thanks to the psychic power and force sword of the Librarian.

Assault Intercessors should be kept in low numbers and used as roadblocks, skirmishers and mission play units. They are not that lethal in melee once the mortals are done though, so I would keep them for opportunity kills on something your gunline could not finish off. Grenades+Mortal Wounds on the charge also means they can tackle anything from cultists to Knights - just make sure you engage weakened units, not full strenght one or you'll be disappointed with their performance.

Rerolls to wound is largely considered one of the best abilities.

that said 90 marine bodies is ridiculous. That’s more infantry than my guard army has.

 

they probably could drop a 2-4 squads and take some sort of armor with some weapons that have a bit more oomph.

 

gladiator lancer’s main gun has heavy, so that might be the perfect option.

rerolling a 3+ to wound on monsters and vehicles is pretty dope.