Celestian Sacresant Aveline: Model & Novel (Daemonbreaker)

[Evil Eye]

Are we seriously worried about a cool lady space crusader model converting people to fascism (whatever that even means anymore)? C'mon, fraters.

 

I will say as cool as this model is, it seems a bit weird to be getting a mini of a character who AFAIK hasn't even had her book released yet? I know he's dead in the "present" of 40K but are you telling me Ciaphas Cain and Jurgen models wouldn't sell given how iconic a character the HERO OF THE IMPERIUM and his trusty sidekick are? Or Honsou? Or if we wanted to get a bit more obscure, Shira Calpurnia? Defay and Gravier from those graphic novels from ages back?

 

...To be fair, a Black Library character series would be very cool. Rules or not.

[Petitioner's City]

That's not what I said and you all are misunderstanding me. 

 

I said I feel it should as a diorama piece more openly problematise it's subject matter, thats all. I want it to show that sisters are ... Not nice? And that the imperium is not nice? By presenting its subject matter in a heroic pose, despite the cherubs, it's not doing much to show how frightening celestians (as the most pious of a very dystopian faction) are. 

 

Thats what I want, essentially - a more grimdark version rather than a model which feels like bland, mass media, propaganda art.

[caladancid]

14 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

I must admit I'm ambivalent about this model - its heroic pose, it's propagandistic nature - that makes me worry about the ease with which the Imperium can be read as straightly heroic, despite being theocratic and facist/totalitarian uber-dystopia. I feel that's something that occurs so often, and I worry how that gets read by less critical audiences.

 

There are elements which are (hopefully deliberately) disconcerting - the cherubs should be deeply worrying, they are mutilated and brutalized children essentially (even if vat grown), but the Blanchian subtext of horror there is nearly obliterated by how darn heroic the model is. 

 

I just wish it was more critical, more artistic rather than stereotypical, more obviously disconcerting. 

Who are the less critical audiences you are worried about? And how would you “problematize” this model?

 

I think the universe is probably big enough to let people figure out how they want to represent it in a way that is most enjoyable to them. 
 

If Eisenhorn and Ciaphas can both exist I think there is a lot of space for imaginative freedom, and I don’t believe people need to have choices taken away so it fits one fraters vision. 

[Evil Eye]

Not to mention, half the point of 40K is that by the standards of the 41st Millennium, a character flanked by cyborg vat-grown lobotomized babies is an unironic hero. That's what makes the setting interesting; the contrast between the heroic nature of a character in an absolute crapsack of a world. If you need to put big arrows pointing to the character going "This is actually BAD!" then it goes from a cool juxtaposition to meaningless misery-porn. Not to mention the insult to people's intelligence that they can't figure out that grimdark things are grimdark.

[Applejack1989]

13 hours ago, Nova-V said:

To be fair shield isn't an option for Sacresants either.  Their war gear is simply Bolt Pistol and Hallowed Mace (which is swappable for Halberd).  Bolt Pistol and Blessed Blade is valid for a Cannonsess so she is closer to a Cannoness than a Sacresant.

You know what I mean. She can't really be a stand-in, she is carrying something that a Cannoness can't carry, carrying something a Sacresant can't carry. It would be one thing if this was a third party model or an older model or a kitbash, but I'm not aware of an officially released 40k model that is unusable from launch in the last few years. Characters like Minka Lesk may not have bespoke rules but their loadouts enable them to be usable stand-in. Minka can be a Cadian Castellan or Commander (not a Shocktrooper Sgt though she could be a normal Cadian Shocktrooper), a Watchmaster, Infantry Squad Sgt, normal officer,  or a Commissar in terms of loadout (even if the optics and aesthetics would be rough for the last few). Other characters have Legends rules. I just don't see it as likely that they would release a model in 40k that can't be used at release as anything.

Edited June 7 by Applejack1989

[Nova-V]

13 hours ago, Applejack1989 said:

You know what I mean. She can't really be a stand-in, she is carrying something that a Cannoness can't carry, carrying something a Sacresant can't carry. It would be one thing if this was a third party model or an older model or a kitbash, but I'm not aware of an officially released 40k model that is unusable from launch in the last few years. Characters like Minka Lesk may not have bespoke rules but their loadouts enable them to be usable stand-in. Minka can be a Cadian Castellan or Commander (not a Shocktrooper Sgt though she could be a normal Cadian Shocktrooper), a Watchmaster, Infantry Squad Sgt, normal officer,  or a Commissar in terms of loadout (even if the optics and aesthetics would be rough for the last few). Other characters have Legends rules. I just don't see it as likely that they would release a model in 40k that can't be used at release as anything.

I don't know what you mean.  Why can't a cannoness hold a shield?  I can't see any rules or lore reason to prevent it.  The model has a sword and a bolt pistol which is a legal cannoness (or Palatine) load out the same way Minka Lesk has a load out that matches a variety of Guard leaders.

 

If you don't want to use her as a cannoness fair enough but there is no reason for others not to.

[DemonGSides]

Yeah if the shield isn't bespoke wargear (I know basically nothing about how a Sisters army is put together), much like bladeguard, it's just fancy additive fun stuff.

After hearing more about loadouts, I'm guessing she'll end up with her own datasheet.

[ThePenitentOne]

These days, some shields aren't spoken of as "Gear" - it's just reflected by whether or not a unit has an invulnerable save, and the strength of the save if they have one.

 

I think the character will get a legends card or a WD card. She could actually be pretty deadly if they do the attachments right: if she can lead Sacressants while they are attached to a Canoness, she'd be pretty bulletproof.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:38 PM, Petitioner's City said:

 

 

I said I feel it should as a diorama piece more openly problematise it's subject matter, thats all. I want it to show that sisters are ... Not nice? And that the imperium is not nice? By presenting its subject matter in a heroic pose, despite the cherubs, it's not doing much to show how frightening celestians (as the most pious of a very dystopian faction) are. 

 

Have you heard of something called "relativism"?

 

The Imperium is not nice compared to real-world western societies. 

In the context of the 40k universe, it isn't a as simple. 

 

Also, the Imperium can encompass multiple truths simultaneously. It can be both a terrifying distopia, and it can also have heroic symbols that fight to protect humanity from even worse horrors.

 

This sister is a hero of humanity. It might not be the humanity you or I are accustomed to, but it's the humanity that exists in the context of the 40k universe.

Edited June 11 by Orange Knight

[LSM]

20 hours ago, Nova-V said:

...The model has a sword and a bolt pistol which is a legal...

 

(Model has a Hand Flamer.)

[sitnam]

How many players would truly have a fit if you rolled up with this Sacresancts as a counts as Canoness?

[Petitioner's City]

On 6/8/2024 at 9:18 AM, Orange Knight said:

 

Have you heard of something called "relativism"?

 

The Imperium is not nice compared to real-world western societies. 

In the context of the 40k universe, it isn't a as simple. 

 

Also, the Imperium can encompass multiple truths simultaneously. It can be both a horrifyingly distopia, and it can also have heroic symbols that fight to protect humanity from even worse horrors.

 

This sister is a hero of humanity. It might not be the humanity you or I are accustomed to, but it's the humanity that exists in the context of the 40k universe.

 

Please, I know this, and as a medievalist kind of do wish to consider this both as media for us - part of my criticism - and within the fictional setting, ie with the period eye (to borrow Baxandall's phrase).

 

Interestingly, we have lots of lovely imperial characters, some who accept their system (Gaunt), but others who realize the horrors of the system entrapping them while still serving (eg in Bloodlines). And of course we have plenty of normal people who just ... are. I just wished this model was more grimdark than bland, and I was expressing why.

 

When we have more clean heroic models (eg like many primaris), it feels a bit sad, especially for this faction. This was a chance to show heroism as horrifying - rather than just nice, Joan of Arc-y. I think thats key - the most propagandistic images of sisters probably are terrifying, especially when you consider the wider, horrifying, aesthetic of the Sisters of Battle through much of their history. That can be the image of one in rogue trader as a punishing enforcer nun, or the 2nd edition codex with its blanchian cover, or the oscillating bricolage of religious horror - of 17th century protestant witch hunters with (very post reformation engraving-style) dark catholic imagery - in Codex Witch Hunters itself.

 

That's what I'm trying to convey, this is a lovely heroic model, it's not what id hope for from the sororitas, who quite literally burn people with over the top flamers for disagreeing with the truths of their creed, lock people within torture machines to eviscerate opponents while dying from the deeds of their act, and punish others in various grisly and/or humiliating ways - and whose whole system of training is to make battle sisters think this is utterly correct (or punish them in one of those many or other ways). The propaganda of the sisters should be through the period eye of the imperium, which itself is utterly disturbing (to us), while of varying levels of horror/subliminality/bodily spirituality/etc to imperial citizens.

 

Hence this feels too ... Bland. There absolutely are very sororitas heroes we can empathise with (going back to Daemonifuge, although that is an argument almost against the puritanical nature of imperial religion; and various conflicted sisters since - in Fehervari, in French's Covenant books, in the Plague Wars books - and one is the opportunity to make conflicted or compromised characters in FFG's works (sisters famulous are great for this!). But behind these, there are the indoctrinated majority of battle sisters, and then straight up evil bastards, like in the Iron Kingdom novel. 

 

I just wish there was something more discomforting to it, more disturbing - than two cute cherubs that kind of feel the fluffy version of the much more horrific reality of servitorisation. I wish it has the reality of something like Mantel's Cromwell, i.e. a figure not bound to 21st century heroic poster art or our expectations of heroism (which is why I called it propagandistic), but a figure out of the heroic art of the 41st millennium, which is very alien from us (and much closer, due to the setting's sources, to the period eye approach of premodern centuries). I hope that makes better sense. 

Edited June 9 by Petitioner's City

[Marshal Reinhard]

9 hours ago, sitnam said:

How many players would truly have a fit if you rolled up with this Sacresancts as a counts as Canoness?

Just the ones not worth playing

[Nephaston]

This feels like it is once again down to the paintjob. It's a product to be shown off, anything but a clean paintjob showing all the details would be insufficient for presentattion. If it is not grimdark enough, just paint it more grimdark. If the cherubs are to "cute" (one is a literal skull head, the other is half a replaced head) then just maake the skull dirtier and the half head inflamed. If the base is too heroic just staple various corpses on it and drench it in  blood and ash.

 

This is a painting hobby, just paint the minis how you think they should be like.

 

[Lay]

38 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

Hence this feels too ... Bland. There absolutely are very sororitas heroes we can empathise with (going back to Daemonifuge, although that is an argument almost against the puritanical nature of imperial religion; and various conflicted sisters since - in Fehervari, in French's Covenant books, in the Plague Wars books - and one is the opportunity to make conflicted or compromised characters in FFG's works (sisters famulous are great for this!). But behind these, there are the indoctrinated majority of battle sisters, and then straight up evil bastards, like in the Iron Kingdom novel.

 

I think it's a bit premature to judge the model by itself, when it's a tie-in for a novel that has yet to come out. It's better to wait for the actual story to flesh out the character and get the full picture. For all we now the book might very well be in line with the stories you list here.

 

I can kinda sorta see where you're coming from though. I have the same issue with Guilliman's overly heroic - toyish even- 40k model, but then again, his story in the setting paints a much darker picture then what the mini alone would let you assume about him.

[caladancid]

5 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

Words

 

So here is a picture from that Witch Hunters codex- fairly similar to the new model in a lot of ways. Also, the Celestine model still has doves flying around so it hasn't always been catholic horror nuns all the time (though there is that also).

 

 

You also really don't address the most, pardon the phrase, problematic part of your original post regarding the "less critical audiences."

[Schurge]

There's something to be said about desensitization. The cherubs are more than enough for me to view the model as grotesque and less than an ideal image of heroism. I would remove them if that was what I was going for with the model. (Edit: Maybe not, to hold the fact that all is grey.)

 

I can certainly see that it falls far short of the grimdark standard set by many of the older 40k artists... But I am hard pressed to think of many Imperium models that capture it. (Outside of, ironically, Inquisition and Sisters models.)

 

I wonder though, how many really internalize the Imperium - or whatever faction they play - as... well... anything? Is it necessary?

 

I explore myself, when I explore the hobby. What ever faction I am engaging with. My Grey Knights are closer to what is good in me, but all light casts a shadow.

 

 

Edited June 9 by Schurge

[Petitioner's City]

2 hours ago, caladancid said:

 

So here is a picture from that Witch Hunters codex- fairly similar to the new model in a lot of ways. Also, the Celestine model still has doves flying around so it hasn't always been catholic horror nuns all the time (though there is that also).

 

 

You also really don't address the most, pardon the phrase, problematic part of your original post regarding the "less critical audiences."

 

Good points, but this art is wonderfully dark - Celestine chained, with spiky weights, suggesting something less angelic and much more daemonic - or also the fetishes of a saint suggesting their grisly demise (like a Catherine wheel or other similar token); the folks in the bottom right (who are they?) being burned!; the sister holding up something obscured (a decapitated head? A reliquary?) to the bottom left; and yes a much more creepy cherub in the top-left. This contrasts with the bright saint, yes, surrounded by those rather Christian doves - but the work serves to add a disconcerting sense of unease surrounding it, the violent excesses of the sisters & imperial religion. This is such a great work! Sadly Celestine's model missed some of this, alas, in that it isn't a diorama and thus all we have is the St Michael-like battle angel.

 

But this art is what i'd hope for, for sure, from a new "hero" sister - be it a cover image or a diorama model. Thats what I've been trying to express - that I wish the new model/cover was much closer to this - thank you for sharing this again :) 

 

In terms of less critical audiences, some of the fans are less critical in how they relate to the imperium, that's totally true. We all know people forget, or never think about, how bad the imperium is - and tend to project onto its more frightening elements heroism (and indeed it is heroism) without thinking about the bad stuff (like Paul Atriedes without the jihad, versus Paul in Messiah after the jihad). This new model (and cover) projects a heroism that I imagine the text is far more critical of (since most modern texts are, to some extent) - or perhaps the book is a wonderfully demented exploration of what it is to truly be a terrifying fanatical battle sister, informed by the many pious violent fanatics of history. Will be really intriguing to read & find out :) 

 

[beefeb]

I just looked at the model and thought....yay, new sister for my force.  It looks cool.  I didnt analyse or even think of all that stuff.....I think its just a cool nun with gun/sword/shield/big choppy flamey thing and it will be fun to paint.

[SvenIronhand]

On 6/9/2024 at 1:06 PM, Petitioner's City said:

 

Good points, but this art is wonderfully dark - Celestine chained, with spiky weights, suggesting something less angelic and much more daemonic - or also the fetishes of a saint suggesting their grisly demise (like a Catherine wheel or other similar token); the folks in the bottom right (who are they?) being burned!; the sister holding up something obscured (a decapitated head? A reliquary?) to the bottom left; and yes a much more creepy cherub in the top-left. This contrasts with the bright saint, yes, surrounded by those rather Christian doves - but the work serves to add a disconcerting sense of unease surrounding it, the violent excesses of the sisters & imperial religion. This is such a great work! Sadly Celestine's model missed some of this, alas, in that it isn't a diorama and thus all we have is the St Michael-like battle angel.

 

But this art is what i'd hope for, for sure, from a new "hero" sister - be it a cover image or a diorama model. Thats what I've been trying to express - that I wish the new model/cover was much closer to this - thank you for sharing this again :) 

 

In terms of less critical audiences, some of the fans are less critical in how they relate to the imperium, that's totally true. We all know people forget, or never think about, how bad the imperium is - and tend to project onto its more frightening elements heroism (and indeed it is heroism) without thinking about the bad stuff (like Paul Atriedes without the jihad, versus Paul in Messiah after the jihad). This new model (and cover) projects a heroism that I imagine the text is far more critical of (since most modern texts are, to some extent) - or perhaps the book is a wonderfully demented exploration of what it is to truly be a terrifying fanatical battle sister, informed by the many pious violent fanatics of history. Will be really intriguing to read & find out :) 

 

 

While I agree with you on the broader points, is this model in of itself really the place for the darker depiction? 

[Petitioner's City]

3 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

While I agree with you on the broader points, is this model in of itself really the place for the darker depiction? 

 

A very fair point, also as it is a representational figure with our first clearly principal, main character, person of colour for the faction. 

[phandaal]

3 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

A very fair point, also as it is a representational figure with our first clearly principal, main character, person of colour for the faction. 

 

Is this the first time she has shown up? Could have sworn the character has been in other novels but my mind is blank at the moment.

 

Also keep in mind that there are no "people of color" in 40k. The setting is so far removed from modern day Planet Earth that any races present today have probably been mixed and remixed hundreds of times on different planets all around the galaxy. Any resemblance is purely coincidental.

 

People in 40k just want you to have the right number of fingers, toes, eyes, etc and to show the proper reverence for the glorious God-Emperor of Mankind. And show the right amount of justified hatred for the Xenos. 

[Petitioner's City]

9 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Is this the first time she has shown up? Could have sworn the character has been in other novels but my mind is blank at the moment.

 

Also keep in mind that there are no "people of color" in 40k. The setting is so far removed from modern day Planet Earth that any races present today have probably been mixed and remixed hundreds of times on different planets all around the galaxy. Any resemblance is purely coincidental.

 

People in 40k just want you to have the right number of fingers, toes, eyes, etc and to show the proper reverence for the glorious God-Emperor of Mankind. And show the right amount of justified hatred for the Xenos. 

 

But it does matter to us, and I think that's something we can never not acknowledge - especially as I think it's relevant for several people's points made to us, even if unspoken. If this isn't a propaganda model of the 41st millennia, in the mode of that period eye, it is a model for our period eye :)

 

GW are consciously improving the variety of faces and people types we see in the far future - for good reason.

 

I still wish it fit with the concerns I raised above, felt more dystopian - but happy to see GW continue to expand the world Warhammer presents to us. 

Edited June 13 by Petitioner's City

[Captain Idaho]

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. Let's not start discussing representation and the like as it is a slippery slope of off topic.

 

Let's focus on how it is a great model (or not, we're allowed to think that. Though you'd be wrong ).

 

****

 

I do think the model will be a tough one to paint for a beginner painter. Getting the flames on the sword right would be crucial as it's a central piece.

 

I quite like the thought of GW making more complex and involved models, branching out from the rather simple armour plates style of the big releases.

Edited June 13 by Captain Idaho

[DemonGSides]

5 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war. Let's not start discussing representation and the like as it is a slippery slope of off topic.

 

Let's focus on how it is a great model (or not, we're allowed to think that. Though you'd be wrong ).

 

****

 

I do think the model will be a tough one to paint for a beginner painter. Getting the flames on the sword right would be crucial as it's a central piece.

 

I quite like the thought of GW making more complex and involved models, branching out from the rather simple armour plates style of the big releases.

 

Wanting something to connect to in an entertainment property is hardly political.  Unless you automatically think people of color are political by merely existing.

 

 

I also don't think this model would ever be some mini painters starting attempt.  It's gonna be a single model of plastic for $40; that's not normally where people start.

It's come to my attention that Captain Idaho would rather delete posts than interact with them.  For shame.

Edited June 13 by DemonGSides