List tailoring

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I my biggest disagreement with AT here, is he seems to imply he thinks it’s wrong to tailor against skew lists. I feel that it’s unfairly difficult to beat a skew list if you don’t tailor to them.

you warn people you’re taking skew lists specifically to provide them the option to tailor so the game can be more fair.

[Doobles57]

I'm kinda with you on this. Specifically I always make people aware when I'm going to be bringing a full Knights list to a game. I don't expect my opponent to tailor into full anti-tank units, but I also don't want them to turn up with nothing that can handle a pure big knight list. Gives them a chance to bring something that'll make the game fun for both of us.

[gideon stargreave]

IMHO skew lists belong in narrative only. They can be really fun, death company last stands, tyrranid hordes against ultramarine dreadnoughts, eldar jetbike raids, knight last ditch siege breakers etc. they should be agreed up front, and battle conditions decided between the players. Not exactly tailored lists, but designed battles 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

This might be controversial, but if you have a regular opponent who plays the same or similar lists every game, I don’t think there’s any issue with tailoring a list to what you expect they will likely bring.

 

like if one of my opponents brought a bunch of melta and lascannons because they knew I’d probably bring 4-10 vehicles, i wouldn’t be be mad about that.

 

if I sent them my list and they did not do likewise in a reasonable time, and it turns out their list is a hard counter to mine, then I’d be pretty annoyed.

[Moonstalker]

In a competitive environment anything goes; however, when playing casually, it's always important to communicate clearly with your opponent.  You never want to be That Guy.  Whether a skew list is acceptable or not, whether list tailoring is acceptable or not, isn't something that can be universally defined online, it's something that should be communicated and agreed on individually.

 

The only correct etiquette is clear communication and making sure everyone is having fun.  If you and your opponent think it's fun for everyone to show up with surprise lists with hard skews and just see what crazy things happen, then do that.  If you think sending your lists back and forth till you both agree on a matchup that sounds fun and fair is the right way, then do that.  Taking a skew list, not taking a skew list, list tailoring or not, there is no clear right or wrong that is universally applicable.

[MARK0SIAN]

I mainly play 30k and whilst I don’t generally share my full list with my opponent, I do give them a general idea of it for both our sakes. For example I might say it’s very melee heavy so they can be prepared for that but equally if it’s a new force or I’m trying something different I might say something like ‘I don’t have much to deal with dreads or vehicles.’ Knowing I can trust them to then avoid spamming stuff I can’t deal with. They’ll then give me the same guidance about their list and I’ll do the same for them. This way, our lists are still a surprise for each other but it usually means it’s a fairly even match up. When we play full skew games like all knights then it’s arranged fully in advance so everyone brings the right stuff.

 

IMO, the only problem with list tailoring is when it’s one-sided and the list is specifically designed to utterly ruin an opposing list to the point where the game is over before it’s even begun. 

Edited June 6 by MARK0SIAN
Spelling

[Orange Knight]

I list tailor to make my army weaker in pick-up games.

 

Typically I ask my opponent what kind of game they are looking for; competitive, casual, friendly, narrative etc

If casual or friendly, I ask them for a brief run down of their army, how long they have played, history in the hobby, etc.

 

I have about 10 pre made lists in the gw app, and I transport around 6k points of models in my KR cases that can be arranged as different 1/2k lists. When I get an idea of my opponent's army, I select the list that would have the best back and forth game against it.

 

If my opponent is being unnecessarily cagey, despite me explaining everything, then I simply run the most powerful list of whatever army I happen to be bringing into the store/club.

 

To me having a nice game with fun narrative moments is far more important than winning or losing some casual match at the local club lol.

[Vassakov]

I'm primarily a GT/RTT player these days, so my lists reflect that - all comers lists, capable of playing the missions and dealing with a broad array of enemies. Occasionally you'll get skew lists that tend to be very good or very bad into an opponent, but that's the nature of skew. Similarly, a lot of my friends and opponents are on the same page so we're usually practicing for those events.

 

I think if you're organising a friendly game, list tailoring is less important than having a rough idea where you're pitching your relative armies - you don't want to be, say, the Green Tide v Chaos Knights where it's almost comically one sided in favour of the Knights (Green Tide struggles with vehicles at the best of times, and the Battleshock nonsense from CK cripples the Ork's objectives game.) Similarly, if one person is bringing a Guard armoured list and the other person turns up with say 3 Gladiator Lancers, a Drop Pod full of Grav Devastators and half a dozen Centurions with Lascannons and almost no anti-infantry stuff, you might be reasonably peeved.

 

And, of course, narrative/Crusade games should be worked out in advance.

 

But basically 40k is a social game, and you need to be on the same page expectations wise going in I think.

[phandaal]

17 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

This might be controversial, but if you have a regular opponent who plays the same or similar lists every game, I don’t think there’s any issue with tailoring a list to what you expect they will likely bring.

 

like if one of my opponents brought a bunch of melta and lascannons because they knew I’d probably bring 4-10 vehicles, i wouldn’t be be mad about that.

 

if I sent them my list and they did not do likewise in a reasonable time, and it turns out their list is a hard counter to mine, then I’d be pretty annoyed.

 

Yeah, if both players know what they are getting into then there is nothing wrong with list tailoring. The biggest issues with list tailoring in my opinion are when one person does it without letting the other person know about it, or they do it in such a way that they hard counter their opponents without any kind of counterplay.

 

All about the social contract in the end. Don't be a goblin prick, and remember that it is a game designed for two people to have fun.

[Orange Knight]

List tailoring (when applied correctly) in a casual setting can be very beneficial. "Fun" should be the primary goal for both players to achieve when they commit their time to a game outside of a tournament. I think people sometimes forget that the opponent in a tabletop game of 40k is not a video game NPC.

 

Fun side story:

 

Historically, the most egregious examples of list tailoring and "proxy" abuse came from a Guard player that used to frequent my local scene.

 

He had a Guard army, built up entirely of a mish-mash of weapons scattered across various units. When he found out what kind of army his opponent was running, he would declare all the weapons in his units to be whatever option would give him an advantage.

The squads with meltas over there? When facing Orks those would be flamers. Those auto-cannons? Suddenly they were las cannons when coming against Knights. 

 

Back to the present:

 

I theorise that some players are simply anxious when they play. It could be because they don't get frequent opportunities to game and a loss can't be "righted" for a long time. They could be putting pressure on themselves to make an impression as a competent players. Alternatively, they could have fragile egos, or they could simply be selfish and lacking in empathy.

List tailoring to have an advantage against an opponent is not in the spirit of the game. 40k is about co-operation.

 

The people we face on the tabletop are giving up their time and their money to be there. They have travelled from their home, often away from their family, so they can enjoy a game with their cherished models.

Unless the game is agreed to be competitive in nature, people should not be putting their own fun or their desire to win ahead of everything their opponent is hoping to get out of the experience.

[Zoatibix]

I’m a filthy casual but I have ended up tailoring after being flattened week after week by thee same  skew lists. 
 

 

[Dark Legionnare]

3 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Yeah, if both players know what they are getting into then there is nothing wrong with list tailoring. The biggest issues with list tailoring in my opinion are when one person does it without letting the other person know about it, or they do it in such a way that they hard counter their opponents without any kind of counterplay.

 

All about the social contract in the end. Don't be a goblin prick, and remember that it is a game designed for two people to have fun.

This.  Every person involved is giving up hours of their lives to play a game with each other, everybody should be aiming to have a good time.

For instance, our 30K group now often brings SOMETHING capable of anti-air because I usually ran my Lunas with some form of spear-thrust type flyer.

Prior to this, I would always warn everybody if a list had even just two planes in it.  Even if they were more inconsequential ones like the Xiphon and Stormeagle.

We also maintain a "No LoW's until 3500 pts" system so people don't run into a chance of having no hope in hell for fun because a fell(bane, storm, etc...)blade is on the other side of the table and nuked their "normal game anti-tank level" units in one fell swoop.  If it's a 3500pt game, people know by writ the potential for a LoW exists, and adapt for it.

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Zoatibix said:

I’m a filthy casual but I have ended up tailoring after being flattened week after week by thee same  skew lists. 
 

 

 

This is a different problem entirely. Tell your opponents you want them to adjust their lists for a more casual, lower power game.

 

If they refuse to do that, look for different opponents or a different place to play.

 

It sounds severe perhaps, but these are people that clearly don't empathise with the gaming experience of their opponent. At least they can be challenged more often than not.

[Rogue]

It feels like 10th has pushed list-building towards skew, via detachments.

 

Take the preview detachments for GSC, for example - the Xenocreed Congregation wants you to load up on hybrids; the Biosanctic Broodsurge strongly favours aberrants and genestealers; and the Outlander Claw builds around mobile units like trucks, bikes and ridgerunners. 

 

If I want to take full advantage of a detachments rule, I'm inclined to skew. As is my opponent, of course, and often-times it feels as if the game turns on whose skewed list works better into the other.

 

On the tailoring front, I have found myself tailoring more often recently, but often as a consequence of victory. For example, one of my regular opponents is building a Tyranid list. Because he's limited to what he has, I took what I thought would be a less effective mechanised Cult list - ridgerunners, rockgrinders, ridgerunners and a couple of infantry units (aberrants and metamorphs, I think). Turns out, they romped all over his list twice in one evening. So next time we play, I won't be using that list - what's the point? We both know it works really well into his list, he can't change the list, so of we want a fun game, I need to change mine. 

 

So I'm tailoring, but for a more fun outcome.

[ThePenitentOne]

In many campaign systems, your army is represented by a roster of units that are rarely, if ever, fielded simultaneously as one force.

 

Obviously, a whole different vibe from a stand-alone game, and MILES away from a pick-up game, but this style of play takes list tailoring seriously, especially in map-based campaigns where you're required to leave a standing force in a territory if you want to maintain control. In cases like these, committing a unit to battle in order to tailor the army list might mean that unit is unavailable to tailor the army list in the defensive battle that will inevitably happen once the next player in line declares their attack for the round.

 

Attrition campaigns put even more pressure on a player to choose wisely- risking the demise of specialist units in the early stages of the campaign could leave you vulnerable for the endgame. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Rogue said:

It feels like 10th has pushed list-building towards skew, via detachments.

 

Take the preview detachments for GSC, for example - the Xenocreed Congregation wants you to load up on hybrids; the Biosanctic Broodsurge strongly favours aberrants and genestealers; and the Outlander Claw builds around mobile units like trucks, bikes and ridgerunners. 

 

If I want to take full advantage of a detachments rule, I'm inclined to skew. As is my opponent, of course, and often-times it feels as if the game turns on whose skewed list works better into the other.

 

On the tailoring front, I have found myself tailoring more often recently, but often as a consequence of victory. For example, one of my regular opponents is building a Tyranid list. Because he's limited to what he has, I took what I thought would be a less effective mechanised Cult list - ridgerunners, rockgrinders, ridgerunners and a couple of infantry units (aberrants and metamorphs, I think). Turns out, they romped all over his list twice in one evening. So next time we play, I won't be using that list - what's the point? We both know it works really well into his list, he can't change the list, so of we want a fun game, I need to change mine. 

 

So I'm tailoring, but for a more fun outcome.

I haven’t looked at any of the GSC detachments yet but none of the detachments in any other codex really lead to skew lists so I doubt the GSC detachments will

[Rogue]

In which context, though? Are you talking about more serious, competitive games, or more casual games?

 

My group is mostly casual, so if I'm playing a detachment that favours aberrants and 'stealers, I'm inclined to lean into that theme because it's fun and different, even if it leaves me short in other areas.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

37 minutes ago, Rogue said:

In which context, though? Are you talking about more serious, competitive games, or more casual games?

 

My group is mostly casual, so if I'm playing a detachment that favours aberrants and 'stealers, I'm inclined to lean into that theme because it's fun and different, even if it leaves me short in other areas.

What does ‘skew list’ mean to you?

[Rogue]

A list that leans heavily into a certain approach or unit type - all tanks, for example, or jamming in as many troops as you can.

 

And I guess I'd also apply it to a list that doesn't go 100%, but still tilts significantly towards a specific tactic - a couple of neophytes units to hold objectives, and everything else spent on aberrants and 'stealers to swarm and overwhelm the enemy lines.

 

But I suspect that's different to how you're using it...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Rogue said:

A list that leans heavily into a certain approach or unit type - all tanks, for example, or jamming in as many troops as you can.

 

And I guess I'd also apply it to a list that doesn't go 100%, but still tilts significantly towards a specific tactic - a couple of neophytes units to hold objectives, and everything else spent on aberrants and 'stealers to swarm and overwhelm the enemy lines.

 

But I suspect that's different to how you're using it...

Considering you can only take 3 units of aberrants I’m not seeing how you can skew into aberrants.

 

to me a skew list is a list designed to be oppressively difficult to deal with in one manner or another without specific builds.

this can be offensively or defensively.

so a mass of high S, AP, and D weapons with few shots is an anti-tank/monster skew list. 300 T3 1W infantry is an infantry skew list.

 

having a few extra units/models of a specific type than normally expected is not what I would call a skew list.

 

up to 30 T6 3W doesn’t sound too skewy to me…

 

any TAC list should have no problems dealing with that.

Edited June 7 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Using games-workshop for genestealer info, but it looks like maxing out aberrants and genestealers in a 2k list still leaves roughly 25% of points available for other units.

 

so they’re not an overwhelming number of units, and they’re not oppressively hard to deal with offensively, or defensively.

 

doesnt really sound like a skew list in any way to me

 

edit

phone autocorrected games-workshop to games workshop

 

ok this must be a website thing rather than a my phone thing

 

used waha-pedia for genestealer info

are we not allowed to talk about WP here is that why the website autocorrects it to games workshop?

Edited June 7 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[MegaVolt87]

"Skew list" and "theme list", depending from what end of the table you are and if you are winning/ losing its largely interchangeable. Should actually remember the old definition "one trick pony lists", which more accurately hit the intended goal of comp by doubling down on units/ playstyle to win. An example, IF 30k stone gauntlet ROW, this qualifies as a theme list/ skew list and if you hard tune it, a one trick pony list that is very effective with the parts it benefits. The "trick" will either work and you win or you won't. A skew list and a theme list are interchangeable. Comp players attempt to muddy the waters by saying their one trick pony list is a theme list, newer players dub it a skew list, while themed list players would describe their list as "skewed towards infantry on foot" as the "theme". You shouldn't be painting "skew lists" with the same brush, its not that cut and dry. 

[DemonGSides]

I don't think skew list and theme list are interchangeable.

Skew list would be 4-6 Dreadknights, like we've seen in GK competitive lately.

A themed list that can do some work isn't an automatic skew list unless it's that way because it's 10 dreadnoughts that are busted.  I don't understand your random acronyms so I can't speak to it (I don't play 30k), but you're muddying the waters by calling them interchangeable when that's absolutely not true.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, MegaVolt87 said:

"Skew list" and "theme list", depending from what end of the table you are and if you are winning/ losing its largely interchangeable. Should actually remember the old definition "one trick pony lists", which more accurately hit the intended goal of comp by doubling down on units/ playstyle to win. An example, IF 30k stone gauntlet ROW, this qualifies as a theme list/ skew list and if you hard tune it, a one trick pony list that is very effective with the parts it benefits. The "trick" will either work and you win or you won't. A skew list and a theme list are interchangeable. Comp players attempt to muddy the waters by saying their one trick pony list is a theme list, newer players dub it a skew list, while themed list players would describe their list as "skewed towards infantry on foot" as the "theme". You shouldn't be painting "skew lists" with the same brush, its not that cut and dry. 

No, only a sore loser would claim a themed list that is not skewed is a skew list.

 

my typical guard army is themed, but not remotely skewed, and I plan on building it out to an even more niche theme, which will still not be a skew list.

 

a mechanized infantry/dragoon themed list is far from a skew list.

 

a SM 10th company themed list, is not a skew list.

 

almost every army list has a theme, ironically often except skew lists when the only real theme behind the thought process is “I just gotta win”

can there be overlap between a theme and a skew list? Sure. 
 

a theme of super heavy tanks, is also a skew list if you’re tanking 4 baneblades in a 2k game. That’s a list an opponent won’t be able to do much about, unless they tailor their list to it.

 

 

[DemonGSides]

Yeah if the "theme" is "I'm bringing an annoying grouping of things" than sure, Skew is a theme LOL

Edited June 7 by DemonGSides