List tailoring

[Jolemai]

There's certainly a context aspect that comes into play:

• I feel like a themed list is something that a more casual player does. You pick a theme, build towards it, learn it, improve it, and so on. It stays on point throughout editions despite many revisions, you even paint towards that theme. In short, it's a lot more personal
• A skew list has a more negative outlook where someone has built and often, heavily slanted a list towards a certain meta/anti meta in order to win. These don't last long when the meta changes

Perhaps I'm biased as it's not secret that I run themed lists (see signature) and these evolve over time to be able to hold their own despite their apparent weaknesses. However, I have had them referred to as skew lists which wasn't pleasant tbh.

Edited June 7 by Jolemai

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

41 minutes ago, Jolemai said:

There's certainly a context aspect that comes into play:

• I feel like a themed list is something that a more casual player does. You pick a theme, build towards it, learn it, improve it, and so on. It stays on point throughout editions despite many revisions, you even paint towards that theme. In short, it's a lot more personal
• A skew list has a more negative outlook where someone has built and often, heavily slanted a list towards a certain meta/anti meta in order to win. These don't last long when the meta changes

Perhaps I'm biased as it's not secret that I run themed lists (see signature) and these evolve over time to be able to hold their own despite their apparent weaknesses. However, I have had them referred to as skew lists which was pleasant tbh.

No one has accused my theme of being a skew list yet :’(

 

guess I suck too much for that confusion to occur lol

[Moonstalker]

I don't think theme vs skew is something worth quibbling over too much here.  A skew list is, in my eyes, a list that identifies something that TAC lists or the local meta has difficulty dealing with (such as vehicles, or massed infantry) and brings more of it in an attempt to overwhelm the opponent's ability to effectively deal with it, even to the point of going all in (like an infantry list with zero vehicles) in an attempt to make any threats that aren't geared toward dealing with the skew practically irrelevant - your lascannon is really pulling its weight by vaporizing one guardsman at a time, right?

 

A theme list can function as a skew list.  The reason you are skewing is different, but the end result is the same for your opponent: they could end up facing something that's just not fun to play against with their TAC list because they lack the tools to interact with your skew on a meaningful level.  So, communicate and set expectations.  Not all theme lists are skew lists, and depending on the theme they could even just be handicapped at the table.  But bringing an IG tank company to a friendly 1k point game, even though you've named every member of the tank crews and they're all wonderfully modeled and painted and fit into all your lore and everything is still what is colloquially known as a "dick move."

Edited June 7 by Moonstalker

[Rogue]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Using games-workshop for genestealer info, but it looks like maxing out aberrants and genestealers in a 2k list still leaves roughly 25% of points available for other units.

 

so they’re not an overwhelming number of units, and they’re not oppressively hard to deal with offensively, or defensively.

 

doesnt really sound like a skew list in any way to me

 

edit

phone autocorrected games-workshop to games workshop

 

ok this must be a website thing rather than a my phone thing

 

used waha-pedia for genestealer info

are we not allowed to talk about WP here is that why the website autocorrects it to games workshop?

 

Sort of. Three full units of aberrants is 1080; three full units of grnestealers is 520. But if you're going all in, you're also taking the Abominant, a Biophagus and the Patriarch to buff three of those six units, and then you're looking at 1750 (and 1780 for the 'infiltrate a unit of aberrants' enhancement). That's near enough 90% of a 2000 point list, and is either going to roll over your opponent's lines in turn one, or get shot to pieces on the way in :)

 

Anyway. I've been using skew is the sense of tilted towards (that being one of the general English uses), whereas I think other people are using it to mean a list that only consists of a very specific unit or unit-type. So perhaps I'm really talking about themed lists, or lists that sit somewhere between the two ideas.

 

Which was my point about detachments - they want you to theme/skew/bias towards a more limited build if you want to maximise the detachment benefit. Good tactical play might push you towards balance, but I don't think the detachments do it by default.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 minutes ago, Rogue said:

 

Sort of. Three full units of aberrants is 1080; three full units of grnestealers is 520. But if you're going all in, you're also taking the Abominant, a Biophagus and the Patriarch to buff three of those six units, and then you're looking at 1750 (and 1780 for the 'infiltrate a unit of aberrants' enhancement). That's near enough 90% of a 2000 point list, and is either going to roll over your opponent's lines in turn one, or get shot to pieces on the way in :)

 

Anyway. I've been using skew is the sense of tilted towards (that being one of the general English uses), whereas I think other people are using it to mean a list that only consists of a very specific unit or unit-type. So perhaps I'm really talking about themed lists, or lists that sit somewhere between the two ideas.

 

Which was my point about detachments - they want you to theme/skew/bias towards a more limited build if you want to maximise the detachment benefit. Good tactical play might push you towards balance, but I don't think the detachments do it by default.

 

Which is why i asked how you defined it.

 

from my experience when people talk about a skew list it isn’t a list that leans into one thing or another, but goes full into a specific thing in order to overwhelm in some manner or another.

 

hence why I wouldnt say any detachments encourage skew lists, especially in that GSC example you gave. T6 3W in decent numbers is annoying and frustrating, but not too hard to deal with using a TAC list.

Edited June 7 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Schlitzaf]

Purposeful player tailoring is bad. I run Horde Marines not because I want to be l33t I just enjoy it. But also because if I only run a 1-2 tanks they are dead tanks. Sense you need a critical number of tanks before: “All My opponent Anti-Tank has 1 Target it dies now”. 
 

Someone I played end of 9th mid game wanted to list tailor because they had a bunch of weaponry that was literally useless against me. And were frustrated because “take baksies” which were “I am sorry mini was half inch over line in deployment or that setting up minis in tts :cuss:ing sucks. But I declared clear intent of folks to be in aura range and I clearly could do so.” 

 

(Specifically he took a setup that was for Mont’ka not Kauyon and realized two turns in and went “I was playing vs Templars why ever do x”). 

 

But like that a different rant. But he basically built an army that was designed  to kill deathstars which I didn’t have. And he then asked to rewrite list midgame because “My list is bad”. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

53 minutes ago, Schlitzaf said:

Purposeful player tailoring is bad. I run Horde Marines not because I want to be l33t I just enjoy it. But also because if I only run a 1-2 tanks they are dead tanks. Sense you need a critical number of tanks before: “All My opponent Anti-Tank has 1 Target it dies now”. 
 

Someone I played end of 9th mid game wanted to list tailor because they had a bunch of weaponry that was literally useless against me. And were frustrated because “take baksies” which were “I am sorry mini was half inch over line in deployment or that setting up minis in tts :cuss:ing sucks. But I declared clear intent of folks to be in aura range and I clearly could do so.” 

 

(Specifically he took a setup that was for Mont’ka not Kauyon and realized two turns in and went “I was playing vs Templars why ever do x”). 

 

But like that a different rant. But he basically built an army that was designed  to kill deathstars which I didn’t have. And he then asked to rewrite list midgame because “My list is bad”. 

Feel like I’ve heard reddx read a story about that guy lol

[tychobi]

Detachments rules often promote skew lists. Green tide, endless swarm, every knight list, iron storm, soulforged, all promote skew list play and are just a taste of the myriad of rules that promote skew play.  GW go long and far to hold up the edge case play styles.  

 

It can be rough to run into a hard counter just like it's rough to roll 10 1s in a row. But the game is what it is. Pointing fingers at someone else's list as unfun is missing the point. The failure is one of communication as to what kind of game you were looking for.  Take all comers means taking all comers. Not just armies you tailored your list to fight.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

On 6/5/2024 at 9:51 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

This might be controversial, but if you have a regular opponent who plays the same or similar lists every game, I don’t think there’s any issue with tailoring a list to what you expect they will likely bring.

 

like if one of my opponents brought a bunch of melta and lascannons because they knew I’d probably bring 4-10 vehicles, i wouldn’t be be mad about that.

 

if I sent them my list and they did not do likewise in a reasonable time, and it turns out their list is a hard counter to mine, then I’d be pretty annoyed.

Back in the day during 3rd 40K my regular opponent was a Dark Angels player. He was usually fighting my Night Lords and we both knew very well what would be present on the table. As there was also a FOC in that edition that meant it was very difficult if not even impossible to build an obnoxious list.

[MegaVolt87]

On 6/8/2024 at 2:00 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

No, only a sore loser would claim a themed list that is not skewed is a skew list.

 

my typical guard army is themed, but not remotely skewed, and I plan on building it out to an even more niche theme, which will still not be a skew list.

 

a mechanized infantry/dragoon themed list is far from a skew list.

 

a SM 10th company themed list, is not a skew list.

 

almost every army list has a theme, ironically often except skew lists when the only real theme behind the thought process is “I just gotta win”

can there be overlap between a theme and a skew list? Sure. 
 

a theme of super heavy tanks, is also a skew list if you’re tanking 4 baneblades in a 2k game. That’s a list an opponent won’t be able to do much about, unless they tailor their list to it.

 

 

 

I'll stick with your Guard example. You may have intended the all infantry guard as a theme, but the edition changes and that comp list is now OP, its now a skew list for instance. Thats my point, any theme can potentially shift to a skew and a skew could very well shift to a theme. Vehicle's are apparently strong in 10th, so IG all tanks is OP/ comp etc, say vehicles' are nerfed in 11th, well the list is now a theme list. A theme list inherently rewards a skew, because thats the design. In the end, I believe its easiest to write the strongest version of your list then dial it back from that, its how I write my 30k lists. I have a few disgusting IW lists I write down from. This way my lists are still themed without an oppressive skew or becoming one trick pony lists that the majority of people would be miserable to play against. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

36 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 

I'll stick with your Guard example. You may have intended the all infantry guard as a theme, but the edition changes and that comp list is now OP, its now a skew list for instance. Thats my point, any theme can potentially shift to a skew and a skew could very well shift to a theme. Vehicle's are apparently strong in 10th, so IG all tanks is OP/ comp etc, say vehicles' are nerfed in 11th, well the list is now a theme list. A theme list inherently rewards a skew, because thats the design. In the end, I believe its easiest to write the strongest version of your list then dial it back from that, its how I write my 30k lists. I have a few disgusting IW lists I write down from. This way my lists are still themed without an oppressive skew or becoming one trick pony lists that the majority of people would be miserable to play against. 

At 2k pure infantry is always a skew list for guard since that’s likely 200 wounds in the army.

 

19 20 man squads of Cadian shock troops is 1980pts, and 380 wounds that are pretty easily hidable.

 

not sure if we have a 20 pt character but dropping 1 squad won’t de-skew the list.

 

also pure infantry isn’t really a theme…scouts/recon like tanith, or heavy weapons specialists are themed pure infantry lists.

 

but yes a themed list can be a skew list but they are far from one and the same.

Edited June 10 by Inquisitor_Lensoven