necromunda Malstrain Coalescence- Sculptor Stephen May

[Robbienw]

Split from this thread:

 

=]Play nice or this thread will be closed too- WAR[=

 

 

On 6/18/2024 at 1:20 AM, sarabando said:

It was Stephen May and they majorly changed his design after he left and hes not happy with the end result. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C8UnKFFtRDS/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

 

 

Someone needs to invite him on a youtube channel to go over what happened to him in his time at GW.  It sounds like he had a really rough time working there.  Most of his resin sculpts were changed in some way after he left, and not just because of mold making requirements.

Edited June 19 by WAR

[sarabando]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

 

Someone needs to invite him on a youtube channel to go over what happened to him in his time at GW.  It sounds like he had a really rough time working there.  Most of his resin sculpts were changed in some way after he left, and not just because of mold making requirements.

he has said hed be open to it. 

[Petitioner's City]

I also feel he's very negative, in that he doesn't seem in any way collaborative. He tends to damn his former colleagues, including fellow designers - anonymously - in ways that aren't nice.

 

I just honestly feel he doesn't seem well? Or prone to highly negative readings of situations - this was his story after Secundus was revealed on the Saturday, before the rest of the spyrers on Monday:

 

 

But when I read his wall, I just couldn't imagine working with him - he's too negative about his juniors and co-designers. Punching down to people?

Edited June 18 by Petitioner's City

[Petitioner's City]

1 hour ago, Robbienw said:

 

Someone needs to invite him on a youtube channel to go over what happened to him in his time at GW.  It sounds like he had a really rough time working there.  Most of his resin sculpts were changed in some way after he left, and not just because of mold making requirements.

 

That's became design is collaborative, and he left a lot unfinished too? When you take on another's design, you do change it - that's part of the process of working in a design team :)

 

This is *who* he's critiquing in the Hibou miniature, for example:

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/C5oFsTHN1jC/?igsh=MWE2eWxuazlsN2d2MQ==

 

 

 

Edited June 18 by Petitioner's City

[Petitioner's City]

12 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Huh, yeah i can see a spore mine actually once you take off the Zoanthrope crest, and of course hes negative now, there was clearly not an amicable situation when he left and now his work is being tweaked almost every time without input, sometimes radically, and on something like a personal project that certainly feels spiteful even if GWis obviously free to do what they want with anything their employees did whilst working for them, certainly that was in the contract when i worked for them.

But yeah, the man working for the company is not the man after the bitter breakup i can tell you that from experience (Albeit in a different field).

EDIT

In fact, as someone asked if it upset him that they changed his work: 

" I think if it is done for good reason, it's fine. Sometimes models need altering for moulding and sometimes a model just needs a bit of improvement. Unfortunately with a lot of my models, It's a bit more personal, because certain people didn't take me leaving well and it's a less of a business decision and more of a personal one."

 

But I feel he's so negative, so hurt, so 'woe is me", I honestly can't take what he says as balanced or objective? That story on insta after the preview of Secundus was just so ott, and not atypical of his output. Like he's a great sculptor, but he feels so very "solo genius" in his approach - and unable to look at his work professionally or with any sense of detachment? Compare this to any other ex-staffer, including those who left for difficult reasons like Sugden or Hewitt? It just feels so much more .... ugly.

 

It is fellow juniors like Daniel Mason he is effectively targeting in his public criticisms - another great designer with a different style & approach - even if his actual targets are Mark Bedford (as senior mini designer) and Andy Hoare (as studio head). 

[Robbienw]

10 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

But I feel he's so negative, so hurt, so 'woe is me", I honestly can't take what he says as balanced or objective? That story on insta after the preview of Secundus was just so ott, and not atypical of his output. Like he's a great sculptor, but he feels so very "solo genius" in his approach - and unable to look at his work professionally or with any sense of detachment? Compare this to any other ex-staffer, including those who left for difficult reasons like Sugden or Hewitt? It just feels so much more .... ugly.

 

It is fellow juniors like Daniel Mason he is effectively targeting in his public criticisms - another great designer with a different style & approach - even if his actual targets are Mark Bedford (as senior mini designer) and Andy Hoare (as studio head). 

 

I think you are just inventing a narrative there now mate. 

 

He's obviously been affected by his time there, would be interesting to know what went on exactly beyond what he has already said.

[DemonGSides]

39 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Huh, yeah i can see a spore mine actually once you take off the Zoanthrope crest, and of course hes negative now, there was clearly not an amicable situation when he left and now his work is being tweaked almost every time without input, sometimes radically, and on something like a personal project that certainly feels spiteful even if GWis obviously free to do what they want with anything their employees did whilst working for them, certainly that was in the contract when i worked for them.

But yeah, the man working for the company is not the man after the bitter breakup i can tell you that from experience (Albeit in a different field).

EDIT

In fact, as someone asked if it upset him that they changed his work: 

" I think if it is done for good reason, it's fine. Sometimes models need altering for moulding and sometimes a model just needs a bit of improvement. Unfortunately with a lot of my models, It's a bit more personal, because certain people didn't take me leaving well and it's a less of a business decision and more of a personal one."

 

39 minutes ago, Noserenda said:

Huh, yeah i can see a spore mine actually once you take off the Zoanthrope crest, and of course hes negative now, there was clearly not an amicable situation when he left and now his work is being tweaked almost every time without input, sometimes radically, and on something like a personal project that certainly feels spiteful even if GWis obviously free to do what they want with anything their employees did whilst working for them, certainly that was in the contract when i worked for them.

But yeah, the man working for the company is not the man after the bitter breakup i can tell you that from experience (Albeit in a different field).

EDIT

In fact, as someone asked if it upset him that they changed his work: 

" I think if it is done for good reason, it's fine. Sometimes models need altering for moulding and sometimes a model just needs a bit of improvement. Unfortunately with a lot of my models, It's a bit more personal, because certain people didn't take me leaving well and it's a less of a business decision and more of a personal one."

 

He's working for a giant corporation making plastic toys. They aren't just "his" work, it's derivative work from the long history of GW and Warhammer.

 

He shouldn't be throwing a hissy that other sculptors are changing his work. He'd be fine to complain about management or the like, but taking shots at other rank and file workers just makes him look like a whiney baby. 

 

(Edit not sure why it posted twice, not can I delete the second quote on mobile.  Apologies for the cruft)

Edited June 18 by DemonGSides

[Noserenda]

35 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

But I feel he's so negative, so hurt, so 'woe is me", I honestly can't take what he says as balanced or objective? That story on insta after the preview of Secundus was just so ott, and not atypical of his output. Like he's a great sculptor, but he feels so very "solo genius" in his approach - and unable to look at his work professionally or with any sense of detachment? Compare this to any other ex-staffer, including those who left for difficult reasons like Sugden or Hewitt? It just feels so much more .... ugly.

 

It is fellow juniors like Daniel Mason he is effectively targeting in his public criticisms - another great designer with a different style & approach - even if his actual targets are Mark Bedford (as senior mini designer) and Andy Hoare (as studio head). 

Hes obviously upset, but i think a lot of the tone you are worried about is just medium, text tone is inherently always going to be a lot more subjective than video, Sugden and Hewitt in particular are both pretty high energy at times, the latter in particular can be absolutely savage whilst coming across very positively. 

I think unlike most others (And i may be wrong on this) Stephen May isnt really promoting something right now with his comments either as they tend to be disconnected from his current work and hes not got a youtube or anything, so he can be as direct as he likes. 

I have no idea his relationship with the other sculptors or studio members, for all we know Daniel Mason killed his dog :D Either way they were in essentially the same job, it hardly feels like punching down or something.
 

15 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

 

He's working for a giant corporation making plastic toys. They aren't just "his" work, it's derivative work from the long history of GW and Warhammer.

 

He shouldn't be throwing a hissy that other sculptors are changing his work. He'd be fine to complain about management or the like, but taking shots at other rank and file workers just makes him look like a whiney baby. 

 

(Edit not sure why it posted twice, not can I delete the second quote on mobile.  Apologies for the cruft)

Yeah i mentioned its IP work it my post, and in the quote he comments on it too. And as mentioned above changing a model that was not sculpted to a brief for non technical reasons feels a lot like spite, which he is plenty entitled to feel put out by and especially as hes not working for them anymore, or presumably ever planning to, why should he not be honest?

(And yeah, the quote system on the newer forum software often has a will of its own, which is why i avoid it so much)

[Captain Idaho]

If we're gonna give credit to a sculptor or artist for their work, such as people praising Jess Goodwin Primaris designs or Blanche... well everything as he's awesome... then we need to hold that standard to their right to have some ownership over their work from a creative standpoint. 

 

I still really like this miniature regardless of what transpired behind closed doors in the office. Quality is still there for it even if it was changed due to personal issues or whatever afterwards.

Edited June 18 by Captain Idaho

[Petitioner's City]

2 hours ago, Robbienw said:

 

I think you are just inventing a narrative there now mate. 

 

He's obviously been affected by his time there, would be interesting to know what went on exactly beyond what he has already said.

 

I don't know, I've followed him through his career and I have really struggled with his posts since he left, as this bitter personality is more and more on display, ultimately critiquing his colleagues - mini designers - who arent able to respond, due to being employees. This dialogue is always going to be one sided, as everyone he alludes to as ruining his vision can't respond to what he says or why they did what they did. And due to ndas, May cant share his originals - but talks of them, and they gain a kind of lost art status.

 

He clearly fell out with Hoare and Bedford, since they mutually stopped following one another on insta (and you can see old posts of Hoare and May playing together!), and he later posted a story (sadly I didn't screenshot) when he was talking about depression and the disappointment of meeting your heroes and them not being who you thought they were, in relation to leaving GW. As he worked purely with SDS, I assume he's meaning people like them?

 

Most apparent of this narrative here is his bone dragon post (when he talks about someone in the studio being obsessed with dragons, which he was opposed to, which could be Alderman, or someone else), there is his hibou post, his spyrer post, his veletarii post, and others - and then his stories, where he clearly feels empowered more and more to be angry and/or desperate publicly - not just critical. And always his words are that later artists' works are bad and his originals best - at least at first (he did say released Hibou looks good!).

 

It's tough, but he's talked enough about being down, about rejection, and so on - and he's a deeply critical mind, of others work (and I am sure his own). That's all on display? Not a narrative, but someone who thinks higher of his work than some others' work?

 

As I said before, hes very talented - and more than this, deeply thoughtful about design. His post on the fixer and proxy was positive and explained why changes occur - to make it castable - but he was also positive about the cosmetic changes "I like it better this way". If that's the case, why does it have to be a conspiratorial narrative when he doesn't like the changes, and fine when he does?

 

Just wish he spoke more about what it was like to work in a team, to collaborate, and so on - in a more bilateral way. 

 

Anyway, excited to see what he does next - the scouts were lovely if too expensive for me.

Edited June 18 by Petitioner's City

[DemonGSides]

16 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

If we're gonna give credit to a sculptor or artist for their work, such as people praising Jess Goodwin Primaris designs or Blanche... well everything as he's awesome... then we need to hold that standard to their right to have some ownership over their work from a creative standpoint. 

 

I still really like this miniature regardless of what transpired behind closed doors in the office. Quality is still there for it even if it was changed due to personal issues or whatever afterwards.

 

No we don't. They are entirely different situations and acting like they are the same is intentionally obfuscating what each of the named people contributed to the rich history of Warhammer.

 

Saying Blanche is on the same level as random guy who worked for GW for a few years is kinda crazy, not gonna lie.  One of these people has long standing influence in the art, style and history of the game. The other is a guy who worked as a digital artist for a few years.  I think there's a world of difference in how much impact and importance they have to the hobby and the various ways people interact with it.

 

I'm not saying he isn't an artist. I'm saying he doesn't have much of a leg to stand on to claim that his work has been besmirched when his work is just derivatives of other people's work, that he made while working under a corporation for the corporations bottom line.  If it was a bespoke creation without ties to Warhammer, he'd have some complaints. But he's basically complaining that his bosses didn't like his work and they shouldn't be able to change it, which isn't true in any other job that's ever existed.

 

If his art is so good, put it out there on his own without the need to belittle other artists. Seems pretty easy to do, what with social media and what not. 

[Petitioner's City]

4 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

If his art is so good, put it out there on his own without the need to belittle other artists. Seems pretty easy to do, what with social media and what not. 

 

To be fair, that is what is he is doing. It remains derivative, but it's very good!

[DemonGSides]

22 minutes ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

To be fair, that is what is he is doing. It remains derivative, but it's very good!

 

Agreed! I just think he could do it all without so much sour grapes towards other artists. If he just railed against GW corporate then I'd have no issue. But the dude is just pissed he lost a dream job and taking it out on everyone. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

But the dude is just pissed he lost a dream job and taking it out on everyone. 

 

The job so dreamy it haemorrhages talent? Like, it's very obvious that being a creative at GW is like being a developer at Blizzard. It only becomes dreamy when you're an executive, otherwise your enthusiasm and skill is just getting mercilessly exploited. 

 

Duncan Rhodes et al. in the painting side are many examples, but so is the guy who made AT2018 and basically caused it to be a smash out hit rather than a super weird money sink. 

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Miniatures designers and games designers don’t like each other or don’t work well together going so far as throw shade and talk crap? Judging from the experiences of utopia and harmony between regular hobbyists I find this deeply shocking. 

[Vazzy]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

The job so dreamy it haemorrhages talent? Like, it's very obvious that being a creative at GW is like being a developer at Blizzard. It only becomes dreamy when you're an executive, otherwise your enthusiasm and skill is just getting mercilessly exploited. 

 

Duncan Rhodes et al. in the painting side are many examples, but so is the guy who made AT2018 and basically caused it to be a smash out hit rather than a super weird money sink. 

 

 

Also, Steve sculpts everything for and owns Spectre, which is kind of like, THE Ultramodern game, and has the best sculpts in the business for it. He also has done a ton of freelance work for BSS which looks great. 

 

To be clear I'm agreeing with you, but from having chatted with him on discord he seems much happier being his own boss. 

Edited June 18 by Vazzy

[DemonGSides]

9 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Oh I see, because he's not as successful as established artists who are well regarded, his right for recognition regarding his own art is void.

 

I'm fairly certain you've misinterpreted my post.  See, you assumed I was criticizing his art, because you don't read my posts.  I would suggest reading it again.

 

9 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

That's your opinion. I personally think the code and honour of artists is relevant regarding what they work on.

 

It isn't my opinion, it's one you constructed.  He also threw that code of honor out when he started criticizing other artists, no?  Or does the code of honor only work one way.  I want to know, since you're an expert, on this supposed 'code of honor' that all artists live by.

 

9 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Complaining his work is derivative whilst defending GW is perplexing at best though. As if GW never derivatively produced anything! 

 

I never COMPLAINED that his work was derivative.  It's by definition derivative, because he's being paid by the company to make art they want!  GW's IP being a gestalt of everyone else's IP literally has no point to the conversation at hand; that maybe he shouldn't be lambasting other artists (So much for his code of honor, huh?) because he lost a job.  Also; defending GW?  Everyone who disagrees with you isn't a GW shill.  I just don't think people who are making miniatures for the company should be mad when... people make miniatures for the company.

 

9 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

I do agree that comments online doesn't paint a professional in a positive light and he should either provide detailed clarification as to why he feels that way or be quiet, for his own career's sake if nothing else.

 

Oh okay so you just disagree to argue.  Good to know that's what we're doing here.

7 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

The job so dreamy it haemorrhages talent? Like, it's very obvious that being a creative at GW is like being a developer at Blizzard. It only becomes dreamy when you're an executive, otherwise your enthusiasm and skill is just getting mercilessly exploited. 

 

Duncan Rhodes et al. in the painting side are many examples, but so is the guy who made AT2018 and basically caused it to be a smash out hit rather than a super weird money sink. 

 

It sure as wouldn't be MY dream job, but the guy's got the sour grapes to make it sound like it was everything he wanted until he got run out of town.

That's his opinion, not mine.

Edited June 19 by DemonGSides

[DemonGSides]

11 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Yeah i mentioned its IP work it my post, and in the quote he comments on it too. And as mentioned above changing a model that was not sculpted to a brief for non technical reasons feels a lot like spite, which he is plenty entitled to feel put out by and especially as hes not working for them anymore, or presumably ever planning to, why should he not be honest?

 

I just don't trust his opinion that it was done out of spite.  I don't think the stuff I looked at that he's currently offering is anything that's like head and shoulders better than anything else (And from what I can gather, he was mostly responsible for Necromunda stuff, which definitely has a very specific "look" even within GW's motifs), and even if it was done out of spite, I think there's a lot of better ways to handle your emotions over it than wailing on the internet about other artists.

[Domhnall]

This model is very cool, and a bit different from what I'm used to! Nasty stuff!
 

I don't know the guys personal relationships with other members of GW while he was there which can skew your perception of where you work, but I can see where he's coming from if he's annoyed with any changes to his sculpts whilst at the same time understand that they are not 'his' models but the companies and they can do what they want with them.

 

I produce Structural drawings within the construction industry, and I feel very protective of every model/drawing that I produce and absolutely hate when somebody else touches them (because they always make a mess of them!). However, I also understand that if I'm not there (on holiday/working on another project etc), or I have left that company then everything I produce is 'company owned' and can/will be changed to what is required by whoever is available. I've despaired about how some of my work has been butchered but it is what it is and it can suck big time but I can be proud of the work I do produce. 

[Antarius]

I really think you’re wrong here, Idaho. Or rather, I think you two are talking past each other.

 

I consider myself an artist (not a good one, but I make things that I definitely consider art), but some of my art is obviously derivative, in the sense that it’s hugely inspired by others. Many artists would say the same.

Whenever I do anything warhammer-related, it is derivative by definition, in a way that e.g. John Blanche’s stuff simply isn’t, because he was one of the standard bearers in the field. His work shaped the aesthetic that the rest of us work within when we do something “Blanchey”, which is not to say that our work is bad - it’s just not groundbreaking in the same way.

 

That’s not a comment on the quality of my (or anyone else’s) work, although I can see where the misunderstanding arises - in many cases, derivative would be a bad thing, but in this case it’s simply part and parcel of doing something in a field that has such a well-defined style.

 

For example, I am often turned off by 3rd party sculpts (hell, sometimes by GW sculpts too), because I feel that they don’t look right for the setting/alongside other models/paintings in the same universe. This is almost always because they step subtly outside the boundaries of the aesthetic that has been laid down by all the previous works they’re supposed to draw on. Or, in other words, they’re not derivative enough (or rather, they’re not derivative of the right things, so they don’t fit in).

 

In fact, I think if anyone did something completely original we would simply not recognise it as warhammer anymore. 
That’s not to say that there aren’t degrees of derivativeness - sometimes we see models that are almost 100% derivative in a great way (e.g. the WH+ Khorne terminator that is supposed to be as close a recreation of the classic piece of art as possible), sometimes things are more original within the set boundaries of the warhammer aesthetic.

In this particular case, I can point to several design cues from other model ranges that the model directly draws on, so it obviously derives central parts of its look from previous works, but that’s also a central part of what makes it work. And noone’s saying it doesn’t take skill and imagination (aka artistry) to blend those elements in a cool and (somewhat) original way, which the model clearly does!

 

All that aside, I can see this being a sensitive topic for sculptors. I am not certain I’d be able to be levelheaded about it either.

 

Edited June 19 by Antarius

[Marshal Rohr]

Guys, it’s literally just the thing, why is it being debated if it’s derivative? 

Edited June 19 by WAR

[Petitioner's City]

Some further discussion - almost repeating some of our points, but also adding context 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "Kev" in discussion is Kev White, formerly also of Hasselfree. Sally is Kev's wife.

 

Edit: also important! Someone passing gossip, and Steve's reply:

 

 

Edited June 19 by Petitioner's City

[phandaal]

On 6/18/2024 at 5:36 AM, Petitioner's City said:

I also feel he's very negative, in that he doesn't seem in any way collaborative. He tends to damn his former colleagues, including fellow designers - anonymously - in ways that aren't nice.

 

I just honestly feel he doesn't seem well? Or prone to highly negative readings of situations - this was his story after Secundus was revealed on the Saturday, before the rest of the spyrers on Monday:

 

[pic]

 

But when I read his wall, I just couldn't imagine working with him - he's too negative about his juniors and co-designers. Punching down to people?

 

Agreed. It is hard to make judgements about people off of extremely limited public interactions. However, there is the old truism about what it means if everyone you meet is an :cuss:. 

[sarabando]

Ive had a few limited interactions with Kev White and he can be pretty antagonistic himself. 

 

 

On this i can see where Steve is coming from he clearly has some history that has soured him to his former employer and colleagues, and as a creative id feel pretty :cuss:ty if my work got change substantially especially if it kept happening. 

 

I know exactly what its like to have a big falling out at work and have it feel (justified or not) that everyone is against you. 

 

I think a lot of us who have worked for GW have had that moment of realisation that "working at GW" is not the awesome thing we thought it would be.  

[Marshal Rohr]

3 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

Some further discussion - almost repeating some of our points, but also adding context 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "Kev" in discussion is Kev White, formerly also of Hasselfree. Sally is Kev's wife.

 

Edit: also important! Someone passing gossip, and Steve's reply:

 

 

Sounds like specialist games wasn’t “hemorrhaging talent” as some have suggested. Sound a lot like someone had a problem putting on his big boy pants and just doing his job.