warhammer 10th edition June Balance Dataslate and Field Manual

[TrawlingCleaner]

Balance Dateslate (Rules Changes)

 

Munitorum Field Manual (Points Changes)

 

Core Rules Updates

 

Pariah Nexus Tournament pack

 

There's some huge changes in here, Admech and Nids have had sizeable changes on top of Sisters, TS, Crons

Edited June 20 by TrawlingCleaner

[TrawlingCleaner]

Some big ones:

Abilites that used to make Battle Tactics free, now just reduce any stratagem cost by 1CP

DevWounds now cause Mortal Wounds that don't spill over. This is big benefit to the ways Custodes could get MW protection and other units like Chaplains etc

 

Mace of Absolution on DA get a big buff vs Monsters+Vehicles, Vowed Target is now against All objectives you don't control, Inner Circle get +1AP

Guard need to be able to see the target to get Lethal hits, Indirect only hits on 4+ max now

Warp Talons need to kill a unit to teleport

C'tan can't teleport 3" away

Daemons got some nice changes

Knights can walk through walls?

 

Massive changes to Admech that are pretty nuts and points increases that look in line

 

Edited June 20 by TrawlingCleaner

[Wormwoods]

Probably for the best that endless swarms only pop once a battle, now. 

[Lord_Ikka]

Knights, of either type, can walk through walls now- they just have to roll a d6 afterwards and on a 1 get Battle-Shocked. I'm liking that. Might have some interesting shenanigans there.

 

Edit- 

Also, now any Vect strat (increase opponent's CP cost for a Battle Tactic Strat) now changes to a 12" aura ability - which I think is what Cypher has natively. Looks like Callidus will probably not be as valuable anymore- they still can pop up and down and do actions, but don't won't really effect the enemy's CP use.

Edited June 20 by Lord_Ikka

[SvenIronhand]

Holy hell, that Champions of Russ change

[Captain Idaho]

The sheer amount of changes to the written rules, either in the main rules of Codex books (including dataslates)... the game is ponderous and I just can't bring myself to play it. Even fans of it must acknowledge the work required, as keeping track of everything written in the Codex, then changed, is a job and I have better games to play.

 

And if I'm not playing, I ain't bothering to paint and model it. Which means I ain't buying models either.

 

This game is a mess. It really needs a complete rewrite from the ground up. A new edition might save it, but I reckon 11th would just be an extension of 10th rather than a rewrite.

Edited June 20 by Captain Idaho

[SvenIronhand]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Even fans of it must acknowledge the work required, as keeping track of everything written in the Codex, then changed, is a job

Not really. If one is tech-savvy, there are plenty of regularly-updated means to keep track of rules besides the Codex. Honestly, GW should just make codexes more akin to lore and painting inspo books similar to the Arcane Journals of TOW, at this point. Maybe put the detachments and enhancements in there, if you must have rules. 

[Captain Idaho]

Well meanwhile, my gaming group of 40 year olds can't be convinced to bother playing it as they don't want to keep track of it all.

 

When you work for a living with kids, it can be detrimental to have to manage your game rather than just play it. Sure some folk don't mind, but others do.

 

I also can't get my sons to play as they feel like there's too much to keep track of and changes "all the time." Not when the PS5 does all that for you.(Which is sad times for me as a long term fan)

[Cpt_Reaper]

19 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

The sheer amount of changes to the written rules, either in the main rules of Codex books (including dataslates)... the game is ponderous and I just can't bring myself to play it. Even fans of it must acknowledge the work required, as keeping track of everything written in the Codex, then changed, is a job and I have better games to play.

 

And if I'm not playing, I ain't bothering to paint and model it. Which means I ain't buying models either.

 

This game is a mess. It really needs a complete rewrite from the ground up. A new edition might save it, but I reckon 11th would just be an extension of 10th rather than a rewrite.

 

Would you rather go back to the "good ol' days" where codex were dead on arrival for multiple editions and we got little to no updates during said edition? These frequent and in depth updates are objectively a good thing, because it means GW are trying (if not succeeding) to keep the game balanced and healthy.

[Captain Idaho]

1 minute ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

Would you rather go back to the "good ol' days" where codex were dead on arrival for multiple editions and we got little to no updates during said edition? These frequent and in depth updates are objectively a good thing, because it means GW are trying (if not succeeding) to keep the game balanced and healthy.

 

I don't feel like 8th edition was the "good ol' days". Nor 7th. Dead on arrival Codex books (like currently experiencing) is a relatively new phenomenon.

 

5th was good. Go back to that. (I say tongue in cheek)

Edited June 20 by Captain Idaho

[Indy Techwisp]

Anyone else feel that the "Pivot" rule thing is a little... vague?

 

The Mutalith Vortex Beast can pivot for free because its on a werid oval base but the significantly smaller Rhino has to spend 2" to turn a corner.

 

Also in the same vein, the oversized Primaris Hover Vehicles can also pivot for for free by virtue of being on a base

[TrawlingCleaner]

4 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Anyone else feel that the "Pivot" rule thing is a little... vague?

 

The Mutalith Vortex Beast can pivot for free because its on a werid oval base but the significantly smaller Rhino has to spend 2" to turn a corner.

 

Also in the same vein, the oversized Primaris Hover Vehicles can also pivot for for free by virtue of being on a base

 

It's only free pivots for circle bases, not ovals. Ovals still have to pivot like normal tanks.

There will be some weird interactions with this though as Eldar Vehicles, Impulsors etc pviot for free and measure from the hull so maybe some janky stuff you can do there? Like deploying on the line sideways, free pivot and then move from the furthest point

 

Knights and Primarchs moving through walls definitely have me a little nervous but I'm very interested to see what it does for the game

[jaxom]

10 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

10 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Anyone else feel that the "Pivot" rule thing is a little... vague?

 

The Mutalith Vortex Beast can pivot for free because its on a werid oval base but the significantly smaller Rhino has to spend 2" to turn a corner.

 

Also in the same vein, the oversized Primaris Hover Vehicles can also pivot for for free by virtue of being on a base

I get the feeling that if GW could wave a magic wand, all vehicles would have bases now.

[phandaal]

14 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

Would you rather go back to the "good ol' days" where codex were dead on arrival for multiple editions and we got little to no updates during said edition? These frequent and in depth updates are objectively a good thing, because it means GW are trying (if not succeeding) to keep the game balanced and healthy.

 

GW could try doing what they said they were going to do with 10th and simplify the game, giving themselves an actual chance at balance from the start, and remove the need for nonstop rules changes. It is not objectively good for a wargame that requires dozens of hours to build/paint an army to drastically change the construction parameters for those armies on a regular basis.

 

How many other wargames are out there completely upending things every three months? This is not an unsolvable problem.

[Indy Techwisp]

In other, slightly more annoying news:

Whoever was at the helm in the first balance database gas clearly brought the guns back around for another Broadside aimed squarely at us TSons again.

 

The 3 most used Rituals getting nerfed is a right PITA.

Twist of Fate already didn't work against Invulns and now its a 9 Cabal Point AP buff which iirc some non-invuln units can flat out ignore the AP.

Temporal Surge was a necessity to get our slow as hell army into the fight at all, so why limit it to once a turn? It already prevented you from charging as is, so it's not like it was just free movement.

Doombolt's changes make total sense tho.

 

And as for the whole "you need to pick different psykers" thing, I thought it always worked like that?

I've not seen anyone spamming all their rituals from the same Sorcerer at all in 10th, so I'm not sure where this has come from.

 

At least we got 3 units down in points (but not Rubrics because Tzeentch forbid we ever get to field Battleline units in Battleline numbers without being forced to cosplay an AoS army.)

 

 

Edit:

Also, I get the feeling we're only 1 or 2 instances of a Tank List tabling someone at a Tourney away from GW slipping Armour Facing back into the rules...

Edited June 20 by Indy Techwisp
A thought.

[LostTemplar]

Where is this Pivot tule?

[TrawlingCleaner]

6 minutes ago, LostTemplar said:

Where is this Pivot tule?

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/uRQOFTWnasejHDVc.pdf

Page 3 onwards

[Tokugawa]

"With perhaps the most powerful codex in all of 10th edition about to drop, the MFM is our first look at how Sisters will land in the meta. If you’re one of the 98% of the player base that doesn’t play Sisters but considering jumping on the bandwagon, I have good news: you’ll need fewer models to chase the meta."

[Minsc]

What the hell is this Pivot-stuff, and who asked for it?

[Norman Paperman]

31 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

GW could try doing what they said they were going to do with 10th and simplify the game, giving themselves an actual chance at balance from the start, and remove the need for nonstop rules changes. It is not objectively good for a wargame that requires dozens of hours to build/paint an army to drastically change the construction parameters for those armies on a regular basis.

 

How many other wargames are out there completely upending things every three months? This is not an unsolvable problem.

If any of you are familiar with the computer game Dota (or its more popular cousin, League of Legends), you're probably familiar with large balance updates like this. I'm mostly talking out of my butt here because I haven't played actual games of 40k, but I've played thousands of dota matches and it's easily one of the most complex games rules-wise you'll find. Over one hundred characters, each with abilities, stats, items, and other minutiae that all substantially effect game balance. Big sweeping changes to how the game is balanced and played happen every year or so, with some updates that would certainly qualify as a new "edition". Minor updates, similar to points values in 40k, happen every few months (though with less frequency since fewer staff work on the game than during its heyday). 

 

All of this is to say that simplicity in game design is a choice. You'll gain players who want simple games and lose players who want complex games. I tell people that Dota takes 1,000 hours to not suck at, but if you put in that thousand hours you've got a game that you're going to love for the rest of your life. Complex games offer opportunities for skill expression at the cost of a higher barrier to entry. For 40k, it's not the rules that are keeping me from playing, it's that I need to build an army first, and then the big stopper will be that games take 3+ hours. Nonstop rules changes help the game stay fresh (as repetition in a complex game is hugely boring). And while there is certainly a cost for needing to build new components to a 40k army, having rules changes in the game gives motivation to players to go back to their painting and modelling desks. Again, I'm mostly guessing due to my lack of a complete 40k army, but that sort of motivation sounds good to me, because that's the part that got me into this hobby in the first place. 

 

TL:DR - Arguing the positives. I believe this is individual preference, versus objectively good for a game's health.

Edited June 20 by Norman Paperman

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Minsc said:

What the hell is this Pivot-stuff, and who asked for it?

 

Pivoting has been a thing in 10th from the get-go, but now it seems that by trying to "simplify" that rule GW have made the various Hovertanks of the game capable of doing Doughnuts with 0" of movement spent.

[jaxom]

I made a new thread in Amicus for discussing game stability, etc, so this thread can really stick to the balance dataslate and MFM news.

 

 

 

[phandaal]

36 minutes ago, Norman Paperman said:

For 40k, it's not the rules that are keeping me from playing, it's that I need to build an army first, and then the big stopper will be that games take 3+ hours. Nonstop rules changes help the game stay fresh

 

Going to be blunt, but hopefully not rude: This is the kind of opinion someone would have if they have never actually played 40k.

 

Get some games under your belt, ideally before and after a rules change causes your army list to become obsolete or unfinished, and you will see that the nonstop rules changes directly contribute to the problems you mentioned in the first part of that sentence.

 

40k is not DOTA. You cannot swap armies before the game the way you can swap characters after a balance patch. 40k is a physical game played with objects that take a significant amount of time to collect, assemble, and paint.

[Minsc]

Gladiator Reaper, up to 160 pts.

Repulsor, down to 180 pts.

Anyone care to explain the logic (or lack of) for me there?

If I want a dakka-tank, why would I ever pick a Reaper now when the Repulsor is a mere +20 pts?

Edited June 20 by Minsc

[Karhedron]

  

7 minutes ago, Minsc said:

If I want a dakka-tank, why would I ever pick a Reaper now when the Repulsor is a mere +20 pts?

 

It does seem odd. The Repulsor definitely need a bit more love (particularly in an edition where everyone loves Land Raiders). But I didn't see people spamming Reapers as their guns are not particularly reliable. With no AP, they are basically fishing for 6s which is not great, even with TL.

Edited June 20 by Karhedron