Born soldiers changes

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Infantry no longer gets lethal hits against vehicles and monsters.

 

and vehicles only get lethal hits when targeting vehicles and monsters.

 

i feel this was a hamfisted way to prevent lasgun spam from turning into semi-effective AT.

i feel there could have been a S cut off.

 

like ranged weapons S8 and below do not get lethal hits when targeting vehicles and monsters, and ranged weapons S9 and above only get lethal hits when targeting vehicles and monsters.

[Cpt_Reaper]

It's a good change really. The issue lies not in Born Soldiers, but in our lack of Detachments.

[SvenIronhand]

It's always on Lethals. Vary up your targeting.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

It's always on Lethals. Vary up your targeting.

Except now HWSes with lascannons no longer get lethals when targeting what they’re supposed to be targeting.

 

and HBs on vehicles no longer get lethals when targeting what they’re supposed to be targeting.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Also app hasn’t updated yet 

[CyderPirate]

26 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

It's always on Lethals. Vary up your targeting.

 

Yeah, we don't have to remain stationary any more, so we'll actually get to use it approximately 20,000% more often. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

Also because it baffles me...

 

How is a Malcador 250 when a Rogal Dorn is now 240 points? Just...How? In what universe is the Malcador worth so much? It is worth 200 at worst, 190 at best.

[DemonGSides]

No one has even mentioned reinforcements change and how it cripples infantry lists. So stupid. 

[Focslain]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

No one has even mentioned reinforcements change and how it cripples infantry lists. So stupid. 

It should be dropped to 1CP for that restriction.

 

Also hope you all like Sentinels, cause they get Lethal all the time, being Regiment and Squadron after all.

[Sergeant Bastone]

I personally HATE the change as I was very good at getting into position a turn early then Remaining Stationary.  I felt like that was a big part of the skill of using my army (old school Infantry Squads) so I'm sulking.  But I understand a lot of people are happy so that's good.

 

Interesting effects: squadron stuff that kills infantry and regiment stuff that kills vehicles greatly hurt

 

Heavy Weapon Squads: I guess only the Heavy Bolter gets lethal against the thing it wants to shoot at

Chimera: "Turn one advance onto objective then Remain Stationary and shoot up infantry" was how I played previously.  The chimera's huge volume of crap shooting is way worse now

Heavy Lascannon FOBs: It was already hard to make these beautiful models viable.  I guess they got a 10 point drop.

Infantry Squads: The heavy weapon's job was to damage vehicles.  There's also way less incentive to Remain Stationary so Heavy will be used less.  All other infantry probably gained greatly from the change too.  RIP old school Infantry Squads

Eradicator and Punisher: I don't know that these ever got to remain stationary but Born Soldiers doesn't work at all against their preferred targets

Some things don't have Squadron or Regiment and thus don't get Born Soldiers at all (Command Squads/OBGs, Ogryns, Ratlings, super heavies)

 

Scions!  Drop in with Lethals against infantry!  My meltaguns are now volley guns for sure.

[Sergeant Bastone]

Oh yeah, and we should be over watching every turn now.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, CyderPirate said:

 

Yeah, we don't have to remain stationary any more, so we'll actually get to use it approximately 20,000% more often. 

I literally never had an issue taking advantage of it.

my gun line consists of 3 HWSes, 2 infantry squads, platoon command, castellan, and several russes, leaving 4 other squads of infantry, their transports, and sentinels to be mobile and do things. Depending I may have rough riders to also be mobile or bullgryn/ogryn stationary to respond to DS/reserves that find a gap in my screen.

1 hour ago, Sergeant Bastone said:

I personally HATE the change as I was very good at getting into position a turn early then Remaining Stationary.  I felt like that was a big part of the skill of using my army (old school Infantry Squads) so I'm sulking.  But I understand a lot of people are happy so that's good.

 

Interesting effects: squadron stuff that kills infantry and regiment stuff that kills vehicles greatly hurt

 

Heavy Weapon Squads: I guess only the Heavy Bolter gets lethal against the thing it wants to shoot at

Chimera: "Turn one advance onto objective then Remain Stationary and shoot up infantry" was how I played previously.  The chimera's huge volume of crap shooting is way worse now

Heavy Lascannon FOBs: It was already hard to make these beautiful models viable.  I guess they got a 10 point drop.

Infantry Squads: The heavy weapon's job was to damage vehicles.  There's also way less incentive to Remain Stationary so Heavy will be used less.  All other infantry probably gained greatly from the change too.  RIP old school Infantry Squads

Eradicator and Punisher: I don't know that these ever got to remain stationary but Born Soldiers doesn't work at all against their preferred targets

Some things don't have Squadron or Regiment and thus don't get Born Soldiers at all (Command Squads/OBGs, Ogryns, Ratlings, super heavies)

 

Scions!  Drop in with Lethals against infantry!  My meltaguns are now volley guns for sure.

Missile launchers, mortars and autocannons get lethals on what they want to shoot at. Autocannons are for light vehicles and heavy infantry.

[OldWherewolf]

I think this was a step in the right direction, but it introduced a whole new, and unnecessary, set of restrictions.  As mentioned, half our units don't want to fire at the thing they want to be firing at.  All the Anti-infantry LR variants?  suck.  Lascannons HWTs?  suck (unless you bring a TON of them, cause hey, 9 LasCannons will do some work before you pick them up)

 

The value of LR Demolishers goes down, since we used that for heavy infantry & tanks.  LRBTs gather even more dust.  LR Executioner value goes down

 

However, the plus side is that Sentinels get LH against EVERYTHING (gee... new kit, who would have thought...), and lasguns against infantry can be really scary now. 

 

Now manticores, with the indirect fire change (a hit roll of 1-3 always misses) means manticores go up in value, while Basilisks go down in value. 

 

Overall, I think it is a positive change, but not enough for me to go "cool!".  Just enough for me to go "meh.".

 

[Cadian Bandstand]

Tank Commanders don't get lethal hits....

[Sergeant Bastone]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I literally never had an issue taking advantage of it.

my gun line consists of 3 HWSes, 2 infantry squads, platoon command, castellan, and several russes, leaving 4 other squads of infantry, their transports, and sentinels to be mobile and do things. Depending I may have rough riders to also be mobile or bullgryn/ogryn stationary to respond to DS/reserves that find a gap in my screen.

Missile launchers, mortars and autocannons get lethals on what they want to shoot at. Autocannons are for light vehicles and heavy infantry.

Mortars only get Lethal Hits if they have LOS now.  That's really bad for them as they need the volume of wounds to get past saves and kill anything since they only do 1W.  Autocannons losing Lethal vs vehicles is pretty killer.  Yeah, they'll still have it against infantry but really they're only okay at killing 'tough infantry' because AP-1.  They'd be good at killing Ogryns if that counts as heavy infantry.  Mostly I think they're good for shooting 2W stuff with a FNP and vehicles.  Without Lethals vs the vehicles they feel a lot less versatile (and they really need the lethals with S9).

 

41 minutes ago, OldWherewolf said:

I think this was a step in the right direction, but it introduced a whole new, and unnecessary, set of restrictions.  As mentioned, half our units don't want to fire at the thing they want to be firing at.  All the Anti-infantry LR variants?  suck.  Lascannons HWTs?  suck (unless you bring a TON of them, cause hey, 9 LasCannons will do some work before you pick them up)

 

The value of LR Demolishers goes down, since we used that for heavy infantry & tanks.  LRBTs gather even more dust.  LR Executioner value goes down

 

However, the plus side is that Sentinels get LH against EVERYTHING (gee... new kit, who would have thought...), and lasguns against infantry can be really scary now. 

 

Now manticores, with the indirect fire change (a hit roll of 1-3 always misses) means manticores go up in value, while Basilisks go down in value. 

 

Overall, I think it is a positive change, but not enough for me to go "cool!".  Just enough for me to go "meh.".

 

I typically run my Sentinels with lascannons.  They wound vehicles on a 3+ with reroll and infantry on 2+.  So lethals doesn't help too much but every little bit helps.  I actually wonder what weapons would do a good job taking advantage of this change.  Autocannons should love it.  The Missile Launcher wants to stay still (with Heavy) and so already had Lethal Hits (i used to run one as it's the best-looking weapon on a sentinel).  The heavy flamer doesn't benefit.  The Multilaser surely gets a huge bump!  Still sucks tho unfortunately.  I'll strap the autocannons on and see how it goes. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Did scout sentinels just become absolutely required to make artillery useful?

as I understand the new indirect fire change missing on a natural 1-3 is now the indirect fire penalty, so sentinels would allow them to ignore that.

 

or am I just too hopeful?

1 hour ago, Sergeant Bastone said:

Mortars only get Lethal Hits if they have LOS now.  That's really bad for them as they need the volume of wounds to get past saves and kill anything since they only do 1W.  Autocannons losing Lethal vs vehicles is pretty killer.  Yeah, they'll still have it against infantry but really they're only okay at killing 'tough infantry' because AP-1.  They'd be good at killing Ogryns if that counts as heavy infantry.  Mostly I think they're good for shooting 2W stuff with a FNP and vehicles.  Without Lethals vs the vehicles they feel a lot less versatile (and they really need the lethals with S9).

 

I typically run my Sentinels with lascannons.  They wound vehicles on a 3+ with reroll and infantry on 2+.  So lethals doesn't help too much but every little bit helps.  I actually wonder what weapons would do a good job taking advantage of this change.  Autocannons should love it.  The Missile Launcher wants to stay still (with Heavy) and so already had Lethal Hits (i used to run one as it's the best-looking weapon on a sentinel).  The heavy flamer doesn't benefit.  The Multilaser surely gets a huge bump!  Still sucks tho unfortunately.  I'll strap the autocannons on and see how it goes. 

They nerfed us so hard it’s not even funny.

Edited June 20 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, OldWherewolf said:

I think this was a step in the right direction, but it introduced a whole new, and unnecessary, set of restrictions.  As mentioned, half our units don't want to fire at the thing they want to be firing at.  All the Anti-infantry LR variants?  suck.  Lascannons HWTs?  suck (unless you bring a TON of them, cause hey, 9 LasCannons will do some work before you pick them up)

 

The value of LR Demolishers goes down, since we used that for heavy infantry & tanks.  LRBTs gather even more dust.  LR Executioner value goes down

 

However, the plus side is that Sentinels get LH against EVERYTHING (gee... new kit, who would have thought...), and lasguns against infantry can be really scary now. 

 

Now manticores, with the indirect fire change (a hit roll of 1-3 always misses) means manticores go up in value, while Basilisks go down in value. 

 

Overall, I think it is a positive change, but not enough for me to go "cool!".  Just enough for me to go "meh.".

 

I don’t think the sentinel LH buff was intentional tbh. That would mean GW’s rules people would have to actually understand the rules they wrote and how it effects specific units…which their record shows they just don’t.

[OldWherewolf]

4 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Did scout sentinels just become absolutely required to make artillery useful?

as I understand the new indirect fire change missing on a natural 1-3 is now the indirect fire penalty, so sentinels would allow them to ignore that.

 

or am I just too hopeful?

They needed us so hard it’s not even funny.

You're just too hopeful. 

 

Quote

If no models in a target unit are visible to the attacking unit
when you select that target, then each time a model in the
attacking unit makes an attack against that target using an
Indirect Fire weapon, subtract 1 from that attack’s Hit roll, an
unmodified Hit roll of 1-3 always fails, and the target has the
Benefit of Cover against that attack (pg 44).

 

the Scout Sentinel says you ignore the hit penalty, but the 1-3 still fails because of the "unmodified" keyword. 

 

 

[Emperor Ming]

3 hours ago, Cadian Bandstand said:

Tank Commanders don't get lethal hits....

 But also

 

So this counts a nerf to all inf lists right?

 

Happy to be wrong

[Minsc]

Yeah GW didn't really think this one trough me thinks.

At first glance "Infantry should shoot at infantry" and "Vehicles should shoot at vehicles and monsters" sounds reasonable in a wayt, if a bit boring.

Then you realize that actually, alot of infantry are toting around with anti-tank guns, and plenty of our vehicles are equipped with anti-infantry guns... so they don't get their detachment-rule if they shoot at their intended targets, which doesn't make a lick of sense.

Born Soldiers always being on is nice, but I'd honestly prefer our previous version, especially since that one made more sense.
 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

39 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Yeah GW didn't really think this one trough me thinks.

At first glance "Infantry should shoot at infantry" and "Vehicles should shoot at vehicles and monsters" sounds reasonable in a wayt, if a bit boring.

Then you realize that actually, alot of infantry are toting around with anti-tank guns, and plenty of our vehicles are equipped with anti-infantry guns... so they don't get their detachment-rule if they shoot at their intended targets, which doesn't make a lick of sense.

Born Soldiers always being on is nice, but I'd honestly prefer our previous version, especially since that one made more sense.
 

Orks get sustained on all their melee attacks in war horde on top of the waagh bonuses, so it really seems silly for us to be locked out of full LHs on everything.

 

wounding automatically is great and all but a bunch of AP0 D1 lasguns or frag grenades/missiles aren’t exactly converting a lot of those wounds into actual damage against vehicles with 2&3+ saves lol

Edited June 21 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Galron]

First time I read it, I was "that sucks." But then I figured I rarely was sitting still except for artillery which are not in the cards anymore. My Praetorian Light Cavalry force should be fairly lethal against my biggest nemesis army nidzilla. Should be fairly entertaining even though the consistency of weapons and targets makes zero sense. My heavy stubber heavy weapon team will roast other infantry but my .50 on a Chimera isnt near as lethal against that same infantryman for.... reasons. If my infantrymen are outside their chimeras then there is something wrong or they are doing actions. On the bright side, most weapons on tanks should be strong enough to wipe infantry pretty handedly anyway.

 

I have been playing long enough to where I wont have to buy anything new to change things but I feel sorry for those players that will. Benefit of having collected guard for almost 20 years. 

[Honos]

You have to pay attention now to exactly what gets Lethal Hits as well.

 

Tempestus Scions Command Squad is the only unit that can formally give orders and has the regiment keyword. Kasrkin can still do pseudo orders with their rule.

 

The Platoon Command Squad and Cadian Command Squad don't have regiment, so they don't get Lethal Hits, and no character can get the detachment rule to gain lethal hits, except for the Tempestor Prime.

 

Catachans can still get lethal hits against everything in Melee with Straken.

 

Abhumans all lose any chance at Lethal Hits.

 

It might now be worth running a 20 man squad of Cadians with Creed and a Castellan to get Sustained Hits 1 and the ability to receive 2 sets of orders. You can get a lot of shots with lethal hits at 3+ with Sustained Hits 1 and FRFSRF.

 

The Leman Russ Punisher still has Devastating Wounds with the Punisher Gatling Cannon against infantry. Now it has a lot of Lethal Hits against vehicles. It's a really weird use case. Given that you don't have to shoot all of the guns at one unit, it might be turned into a takes all comers tank using a lascannon and mulitmeltas against big targets while using the punisher cannon against infantry.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Honos said:

You have to pay attention now to exactly what gets Lethal Hits as well.

 

Tempestus Scions Command Squad is the only unit that can formally give orders and has the regiment keyword. Kasrkin can still do pseudo orders with their rule.

 

The Platoon Command Squad and Cadian Command Squad don't have regiment, so they don't get Lethal Hits, and no character can get the detachment rule to gain lethal hits, except for the Tempestor Prime.

 

Catachans can still get lethal hits against everything in Melee with Straken.

 

Abhumans all lose any chance at Lethal Hits.

 

It might now be worth running a 20 man squad of Cadians with Creed and a Castellan to get Sustained Hits 1 and the ability to receive 2 sets of orders. You can get a lot of shots with lethal hits at 3+ with Sustained Hits 1 and FRFSRF.

 

The Leman Russ Punisher still has Devastating Wounds with the Punisher Gatling Cannon against infantry. Now it has a lot of Lethal Hits against vehicles. It's a really weird use case. Given that you don't have to shoot all of the guns at one unit, it might be turned into a takes all comers tank using a lascannon and mulitmeltas against big targets while using the punisher cannon against infantry.

Units that join together share keywords, so as long as a command squad is leading a regiment unit, they lethals.

[DemonGSides]

I never thought of it that way, that's very interesting.  Annoying when they get separated, but also the command squad is probably quickly dead thereafter anyways.