Game Stability, Balance, and Health Over Time

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And what does someone do when there’s no one who wants to play those other ways?

 

this deflection of the issues in the game is so stupid.

 

TTS is a good option.  Or get in a local discord and like I said, ORGANIZE for it.

If you're finding you're LITERALLY the only one who wants to play something or give it a shot, well, then I don't really know what to tell you.  It's a social game, gotta socialize.

These threads always go the same way.

[Scribe]

13 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

TTS is a good option.  Or get in a local discord and like I said, ORGANIZE for it.

 

I really must just be old. There is no way I'd ever play 40K via Sim. I've played Battletech via sim (megamek) but my complaints with Battletech are many, and its not like 40K which is the assumed default for table top play.

 

TTS for 40K would miss so many aspects of the hobby, and the game itself is REALLY not that good, but hey, whatever floats ones boat.

 

As to organizing? That is the real answer. My local scene depended really on one guy for years, being the go to location, advertiser, and motivator. He brought everyone out of isolation, got everyone going, people (adult men no less) made friendships which lasted years, and it was done via Facebook, and putting up Ads at the local shops.

 

Yeah it took work, but that was what was done, and hes now out there working on his game last I heard.

 

Anyway, it seems we have drifted. To bring it back to the topic.

 

10th is unstable, unbalanced, and unhealthy. ;)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

45 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

TTS is a good option.  Or get in a local discord and like I said, ORGANIZE for it.

If you're finding you're LITERALLY the only one who wants to play something or give it a shot, well, then I don't really know what to tell you.  It's a social game, gotta socialize.

These threads always go the same way.

Yes, always people like you who think that there’s loads of people all looking to play 40K in 40 different ways despite the fact most communities have a rather limited pool of players, and using that as an excuse to tell people to just ignore the parts of the game they don’t like.

[Noserenda]

We used TTS  in our group over the pandemic to get in a few games and it works just fine, little janky interface wise but thats just the classic problem of doing anything virtually instead of with your own hands. The rest of the experience was pretty similar, just with a better chair :D I suspect playing complete strangers would be a bit more awkward, but presumably youd have talked beforehand, and if you were playing something so obscure nobody wants to play it in meatspace range youd have that to bond over ;) 

  

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

TTS for 40K would miss so many aspects of the hobby, and the game itself is REALLY not that good, but hey, whatever floats ones boat.

 

Oh ho ho! We talking about TTS again?

 

Alright! *Cracks knuckles*

 

*Looks at other locked thread* ... *Dog having a flashback meme*

 

On second thought, maybe not.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Haven’t played since the last big update, but apparently the new pivot rules have been problematic, and broken…so yeah, new DLC broke the game, and they’re not fixing it in a timely manner.

So much for the digital rules allowing for rapid fixes…

[SvenIronhand]

To be honest, I'm not sure how the pivot rules work, and I'm usually on top of stuff like that.

[Cenobite Terminator]

21 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

To be honest, I'm not sure how the pivot rules work, and I'm usually on top of stuff like that.

Vehicles lose 2" of movement if they pivot while moving, unless they have a round base.

Edited July 20 by Cenobite Terminator

[DemonGSides]

Slightly inelegant and I don't like that it applies to my Rough Riders cuz it really hurts their movement, but it's a better solution than the donuts people were trying to pull before.

 

We've mostly ignored the pivot cost for non vehicles in our games.  I think it would make more sense if it was based on base size but we all know how contentious that can be 

Edited July 20 by DemonGSides

[SvenIronhand]

...was that really a problem in need of a solution? Feels like a unnecessary change for the sake of change. 

[DemonGSides]

17 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

...was that really a problem in need of a solution? Feels like a unnecessary change for the sake of change. 

 

I don't think so, but i'm not a WAAC player and those people exist to try to find the tiniest crack in the rules.

I would think that measuring from edge of base to that same edge of base would handle all possibilities, but apparently there was some movement shenanigans going on with oblong bases turning and gaining extra movement out of it.  Seems like cheating right from the get go, but the argument was being made that since there was no stipulation on pivots, pivots were free and therefore they could finish a move, and then pivot with reckless abandon on their center point, giving oblong bases (including big things like demons and knights) multiple inches of free movement.

That' what I THINK was the crux, but I'm not full enmeshed in those competitive situations, as I mostly just play with the same group of people.  But that's what online discussions would lead me to believe, but if someone else has an explanation they may be more right on than I am with my 3rd/4th/5th hand recounting lol

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Slightly inelegant and I don't like that it applies to my Rough Riders cuz it really hurts their movement, but it's a better solution than the donuts people were trying to pull before.

 

We've mostly ignored the pivot cost for non vehicles in our games.  I think it would make more sense if it was based on base size but we all know how contentious that can be 

Rough riders aren’t vehicles though…

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't think so, but i'm not a WAAC player and those people exist to try to find the tiniest crack in the rules.

I would think that measuring from edge of base to that same edge of base would handle all possibilities, but apparently there was some movement shenanigans going on with oblong bases turning and gaining extra movement out of it.  Seems like cheating right from the get go, but the argument was being made that since there was no stipulation on pivots, pivots were free and therefore they could finish a move, and then pivot with reckless abandon on their center point, giving oblong bases (including big things like demons and knights) multiple inches of free movement.

That' what I THINK was the crux, but I'm not full enmeshed in those competitive situations, as I mostly just play with the same group of people.  But that's what online discussions would lead me to believe, but if someone else has an explanation they may be more right on than I am with my 3rd/4th/5th hand recounting lol

I just watched an AT video about it, and also apparently for vehicles with bases you measure from the hull not the base, so things like raiders would start at the forward edge of their DZ horizontally and then move sideways, then pivot forwards so their hull that sticks out over the base gave them like an extra 2” making up for the penalty in the first place.

 

im also getting tired of people in the discord for the local game shop. Complain about GW and their trash rules writing? Get told to find another game, that the shop doesn’t sell or host game times for…seems like bad business for them…

[DemonGSides]

24 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Rough riders aren’t vehicles though…

 

In the Pariah Nexus mission set it says the pivot rule applies to all models without round bases.  You of course don't have to play by it (and like I said, our little group ignores it under the understanding that none of us do the post move pivot), but it's the "competitive" style and will probably be the expectation at the LGS level that everyone here who plays that way says is the only way anyone plays.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

In the Pariah Nexus mission set it says the pivot rule applies to all models without round bases.  You of course don't have to play by it (and like I said, our little group ignores it under the understanding that none of us do the post move pivot), but it's the "competitive" style and will probably be the expectation at the LGS level that everyone here who plays that way says is the only way anyone plays.

 

That’s super lame.

that sucks I’ve pretty much ignored rules things since they announced a change to the core rules. I thought it was just for vehicles lol.

 

like I’ve said before I’m probably done playing for this edition, which sucks because I had just started collecting my orks right around the time they made the announcement.

 

if 11th doesn’t look any better I’ll probably just drop the game all together, and if I’m not playing, I’m not buying models.

[DemonGSides]

Do what makes you happiest. I find 10th pretty fun. If they could go back to 9th with 10ths strategems that'd be pretty sweet spot to make me happy.

 

I'm actually more interested in AoS right now with their new edition (which also has some pain points but I like a melee game and that's what fantasy pushes), but that's off topic for here. 

 

 

[Kallas]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

I'm actually more interested in AoS right now with their new edition (which also has some pain points but I like a melee game and that's what fantasy pushes), but that's off topic for here. 

I'm not a fan of AoS lore, but tried Spearhead the other night with friends and it's good. Way better than Combat Patrol - the way they do the Battle Tactics/(I forget what they're called, but basically Stratagems) is really good, and would be an excellent thing to introduce into 40k Detachments; more ways to score VP, or using the ability to gain a tactical advantage, it's nice. While AoS 1E was a hot mess, they've done a good job on the rules since release, and while it wouldn't work porting it 1:1, there's a lot that is done well there.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

Do what makes you happiest. I find 10th pretty fun. If they could go back to 9th with 10ths strategems that'd be pretty sweet spot to make me happy.

 

I'm actually more interested in AoS right now with their new edition (which also has some pain points but I like a melee game and that's what fantasy pushes), but that's off topic for here. 

 

 

You’d rather go back to a T8 cap on vehicles and monsters?

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

You’d rather go back to a T8 cap on vehicles and monsters?

 

I played a bit of Death Guard in 9th so mostly it's just selfishness for wanting that old DG feeling. I played Marines like a handful of times and was meh on it, and played Custodes a bit and was okay with it. Just a LOT of strategems to keep track of.

 

I mostly like nuanced war gear and squad sizes. Basically give me the points and faction identities of 9th with 10th rules (which are really just a variant of the 8/9th rule style) and I'd in a pretty happy place.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

33 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I played a bit of Death Guard in 9th so mostly it's just selfishness for wanting that old DG feeling. I played Marines like a handful of times and was meh on it, and played Custodes a bit and was okay with it. Just a LOT of strategems to keep track of.

 

I mostly like nuanced war gear and squad sizes. Basically give me the points and faction identities of 9th with 10th rules (which are really just a variant of the 8/9th rule style) and I'd in a pretty happy place.

40K hasn’t had nuanced weapons choices since 7th it seems…especially for marines.

[DemonGSides]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

40K hasn’t had nuanced weapons choices since 7th it seems…especially for marines.

Sure it has. Hell, in 9th the flail in the Plague Marine kit had different stats than the cleaver, each bit weapon had its own stat. I think that's a little unnecessary and slows the game down a lot for little benefit compared to current weapon style. 

 

But what I meant was they cost different amounts. I thought I was gonna like free war gear but combined with mostly fixed squad sizes I am not as much of a fan. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Sure it has. Hell, in 9th the flail in the Plague Marine kit had different stats than the cleaver, each bit weapon had its own stat. I think that's a little unnecessary and slows the game down a lot for little benefit compared to current weapon style. 

 

But what I meant was they cost different amounts. I thought I was gonna like free war gear but combined with mostly fixed squad sizes I am not as much of a fan. 

And most kits still have different options.

chainsword, power weapon, or power fist.

stat bloat just because a weapon has a slightly different blade shape isn’t nuanced weapons.

 

nuanced weapons choices is having a wide variety of options whether they come in the kit or not.

 

like the jump captain should have the option of inferno pistol and grav pistol. Restricting him to hadflamer, bolt pistol, and plasma pistol for no real reason is silly, and takes any nuance away from unit building.

Edited July 21 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Cenobite Terminator]

I also miss the ability to design your characters but a lot of people said the last edition was too complicated.

[Karhedron]

42 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Like the jump captain should have the option of inferno pistol and grav pistol. Restricting him to hadflamer, bolt pistol, and plasma pistol for no real reason is silly, and takes any nuance away from unit building.

 

Restricting units to just the options that come with the kit is a design philosophy. I have a bits box bigger than some people's armies and I miss the customisation. But I also appreciate that box splitters scalping people because they want 3 Cyclic Ion Blasters on every battle suit is not fun for anyone or profitable for GW. Cutting down load outs makes it easier to balance units against each other. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Restricting units to just the options that come with the kit is a design philosophy. I have a bits box bigger than some people's armies and I miss the customisation. But I also appreciate that box splitters scalping people because they want 3 Cyclic Ion Blasters on every battle suit is not fun for anyone or profitable for GW. Cutting down load outs makes it easier to balance units against each other. 

No one is forcing anyone to buy from scalpers.

whats even less fun is having a model you worked hard to kitbash invalidated because of a stupid ‘design philosophy’