Game Stability, Balance, and Health Over Time

[DemonGSides]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And most kits still have different options.

chainsword, power weapon, or power fist.

stat bloat just because a weapon has a slightly different blade shape isn’t nuanced weapons.

 

nuanced weapons choices is having a wide variety of options whether they come in the kit or not.

 

like the jump captain should have the option of inferno pistol and grav pistol. Restricting him to hadflamer, bolt pistol, and plasma pistol for no real reason is silly, and takes any nuance away from unit building.

 

Hey, listen, I'm the one who said "Nuanced weapons" so I think I might know what I meant a little better than you lmao  hence why I explained what I meant when I said nuanced weapons, in the post following it when you misunderstood me.  Don't go trying to change what I am talking about LOL

 

Weapons absolutely have had nuances, even after 7th edition (What a weird time to pick); ideally, they'd come from the points as much as by what their role was.  A bolt pistol vs a plasma pistol is a no brainer when they cost the same, and I preferred when the power of a unit was also based on it's wargear, not what it's hypothetical wargear might be.

 

Nuance has nothing to do with what's on offer in the kit or outside of it; nuance comes from what those items do.  Having all the options in the world don't mean a thing if they all do the same thing or there's an obvious all star.

 

38 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

No one is forcing anyone to buy from scalpers.

whats even less fun is having a model you worked hard to kitbash invalidated because of a stupid ‘design philosophy’

 

When GW wasn't supplying the bits to get those weapons and before 3D printing became more commonplace, it was absolutely basically "Buy this same Commander 9 times" or "Deal with bitz sites and scalpers".

 

Edited July 21 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Hey, listen, I'm the one who said "Nuanced weapons" so I think I might know what I meant a little better than you lmao  hence why I explained what I meant when I said nuanced weapons, in the post following it when you misunderstood me.  Don't go trying to change what I am talking about LOL

 

Weapons absolutely have had nuances, even after 7th edition (What a weird time to pick); ideally, they'd come from the points as much as by what their role was.  A bolt pistol vs a plasma pistol is a no brainer when they cost the same, and I preferred when the power of a unit was also based on it's wargear, not what it's hypothetical wargear might be.

 

Nuance has nothing to do with what's on offer in the kit or outside of it; nuance comes from what those items do.  Having all the options in the world don't mean a thing if they all do the same thing or there's an obvious all star.

 

 

When GW wasn't supplying the bits to get those weapons and before 3D printing became more commonplace, it was absolutely basically "Buy this same Commander 9 times" or "Deal with bitz sites and scalpers".

 

You might know what you meant, doesn’t mean what you meant is what you said.

 

it was already covered in the other topic how stupid separate profiles for different types of power weapons is.

 

when a space marine and a guardsman are 1 S apart with basic close combat weapons the differences between a sword, an axe, a mace or flail are irrelevant.

 

again, buying those other weapons from scalpers was a choice and no one forced anyone to do that, just like no one forces anyone to buy limited run products from scalpers who use bots to buy up as many as possible.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

You might know what you meant, doesn’t mean what you meant is what you said.

 

Right... which is why I explained what I meant, which you then ignored to go on a different tangent that I never said, which is where the clarity was required.

 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

it was already covered in the other topic how stupid separate profiles for different types of power weapons is.

 

when a space marine and a guardsman are 1 S apart with basic close combat weapons the differences between a sword, an axe, a mace or flail are irrelevant.

 

Yeah I agreed and I wasn't arguing this at all, hence WHY I CLARIFIED WHAT I MEANT WHICH YOU THEN IGNORED.   Just want to draw attention to it in case you're still missing the point.

 

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

again, buying those other weapons from scalpers was a choice and no one forced anyone to do that, just like no one forces anyone to buy limited run products from scalpers who use bots to buy up as many as possible.

 

I have no idea what your going off about here, but have at it, king.

Edited July 21 by DemonGSides

[Marshal Mittens]

Honestly, I just don't enjoy 10th. I very much enjoyed early 8th, and I think the core of the changes are solid, but I don't like picking up half my army on turn 1, or the constant changes that I am expected to keep up with. 

 

A lot of armies have so many changes that only make sense for balance, not lore and the like, and balance seems bad. Everything is balanced around the tournament scene.

 

I am not giving up on 40k, but I am not really gonna play any more 10th.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

24 minutes ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Honestly, I just don't enjoy 10th. I very much enjoyed early 8th, and I think the core of the changes are solid, but I don't like picking up half my army on turn 1, or the constant changes that I am expected to keep up with. 

 

A lot of armies have so many changes that only make sense for balance, not lore and the like, and balance seems bad. Everything is balanced around the tournament scene.

 

I am not giving up on 40k, but I am not really gonna play any more 10th.

For 3 editions now I’ve been hearing people complain about getting nuked off the table T1, and I’ve never seen something like that in my games or the games of other people playing on tables around me.

 

that really sounds like a deployment or a terrain issue more than anything with the rules.

 

but what’s made 10th a lot less fun is the GW shills who basically just make arguments that more or less amount to ‘shut up you’re stupid’ or ‘play a different game/edition if you don’t like it’ as if there’s no such thing as valid criticism.

Edited July 21 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

Maybe instead of looking at it as a condescending shill, it's a helpful reminder that old rulesets don't cease to exist. 

Edited July 22 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Maybe instead of looking at it as a condescending shill, it's a helpful reminder that old rulesets don't cease to exist. 

Oh yes, I’d love to hear you tell me how I’m supposed to play 3rd edition rules with aggressors? Or a rogal dorn?

[HeadlessCross]

9 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Restricting units to just the options that come with the kit is a design philosophy. I have a bits box bigger than some people's armies and I miss the customisation. But I also appreciate that box splitters scalping people because they want 3 Cyclic Ion Blasters on every battle suit is not fun for anyone or profitable for GW. Cutting down load outs makes it easier to balance units against each other. 

That's only a problem because GW made into a problem via making some weapons stupidly better for the point cost. 

[DemonGSides]

28 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Oh yes, I’d love to hear you tell me how I’m supposed to play 3rd edition rules with aggressors? Or a rogal dorn?

 

Proxy it as something similar or make up some rules yourself?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

34 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Proxy it as something similar or make up some rules yourself?

Oh, so now I not only have to find people willing to play 3rd edition, but also find people willing to play my home brew rules for vehicles.

any more layers you’d like to add?

[TheTrans]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Oh yes, I’d love to hear you tell me how I’m supposed to play 3rd edition rules with aggressors? Or a rogal dorn?

Like in this particular case, you can use the Vehicle Design Rules to create rules for vehicles from scratch, that are relatively balanced.. so not the best example there.

Ran a two-day 32 person 3rd ed event not long ago, a few people used the Vehicle Design Rules and there weren't any issues with them. 

Also have another 3rd event coming up in October. 

But, yes, there are issues of people only following the latest and greatest. Luckily I've choke that out of my 'gang' and have certainly started shaking it out of some of the broader community.

Like..have you asked if anyone is up to rock some 3rd ed? Every faction (outside of Squads) has some form of rules, you have a good selection of Imperial Armour available as well as the Vehicle/Tyranid Monstrous Creatrue Design Rules as well. 

But the 'get better friends' and the 'but there isn't any scene' sort of arguments all become rocks and hard places against each other and lead to nowhere. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

Like in this particular case, you can use the Vehicle Design Rules to create rules for vehicles from scratch, that are relatively balanced.. so not the best example there.

Ran a two-day 32 person 3rd ed event not long ago, a few people used the Vehicle Design Rules and there weren't any issues with them. 

Also have another 3rd event coming up in October. 

But, yes, there are issues of people only following the latest and greatest. Luckily I've choke that out of my 'gang' and have certainly started shaking it out of some of the broader community.

Like..have you asked if anyone is up to rock some 3rd ed? Every faction (outside of Squads) has some form of rules, you have a good selection of Imperial Armour available as well as the Vehicle/Tyranid Monstrous Creatrue Design Rules as well. 

But the 'get better friends' and the 'but there isn't any scene' sort of arguments all become rocks and hard places against each other and lead to nowhere. 

The vehicle design rules were fun, but balanced not remotely.

pretty sure if you used those parameters to build any of the actual vehicle they come out to be like double the points costs.

not to mention something like a redemptor has weapons that don’t exist, and vehicle design rules were just for vehicles, and utilized the standard weapons in the faction, so again, it doesn’t really work out.

but regardless it’s adding a second layer, first we have to find someone to play 3rd, then we have to find someone willing to play home brew rules. Each layer narrows the pool of potential opponents significantly, and if your local scene is fairly small, that becomes nearly impossible.

 

im sure I could find plenty of people willing to do it…all over the country, but that doesn’t help me at all.

[TheTrans]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The vehicle design rules were fun, but balanced not remotely.

pretty sure if you used those parameters to build any of the actual vehicle they come out to be like double the points costs.

not to mention something like a redemptor has weapons that don’t exist, and vehicle design rules were just for vehicles, and utilized the standard weapons in the faction, so again, it doesn’t really work out.

but regardless it’s adding a second layer, first we have to find someone to play 3rd, then we have to find someone willing to play home brew rules. Each layer narrows the pool of potential opponents significantly, and if your local scene is fairly small, that becomes nearly impossible.

 

im sure I could find plenty of people willing to do it…all over the country, but that doesn’t help me at all.

 

Always try before you say its 'nearly impossible'.

Found a good amount of people, just in one city of the country at where willing to roll some sweet, 3rd ed nostalgic action. 

But at the same time, its also very easy to say its impossible without trying and throw every speed hump in the way to prove your point. So if you actually want to try out 3rd ed and get people possibly interest, try doing that.

If you just want to say its too hard as an excuse, then no amount of logic, proof or evidence will change your thoughts. 

Like by your reasoning, none of my local guys, or extended gaming group want to play 10th ed.. I haven't asked outside of my local gaming group, so by that logic, 10th ed is dead, there isn't any hope for it and its gonna be nearly impossible for me to get a game, yeah?

[DemonGSides]

50 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Oh, so now I not only have to find people willing to play 3rd edition, but also find people willing to play my home brew rules for vehicles.

any more layers you’d like to add?

 

Finding a game of anything can be difficult at times, but if you organize, it'll come.  Especially if you've already got a WH friendly LGS.

I wish you luck in the endeavor.

Edited July 22 by DemonGSides

[Interrogator Stobz]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Oh yes, I’d love to hear you tell me how I’m supposed to play 3rd edition rules with aggressors? Or a rogal dorn?

Or 10th with 28 of my units which are now Legends.

[phandaal]

8 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Or 10th with 28 of my units which are now Legends.

 

There is also the fun mini-game whenever a codex launches - Which of my units no longer exist?

[DuskRaider]

My favorite is where I can no longer take Plague Marines in my preferred squad size, which is how I ended up modeling them back in 8th… or how my Chaos Knights are now characterless garbage and the meta calls for a billion Armigers, which isn’t even my thing. 

[Tyran]

12 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The vehicle design rules were fun, but balanced not remotely.

pretty sure if you used those parameters to build any of the actual vehicle they come out to be like double the points costs.

not to mention something like a redemptor has weapons that don’t exist, and vehicle design rules were just for vehicles, and utilized the standard weapons in the faction, so again, it doesn’t really work out.

but regardless it’s adding a second layer, first we have to find someone to play 3rd, then we have to find someone willing to play home brew rules. Each layer narrows the pool of potential opponents significantly, and if your local scene is fairly small, that becomes nearly impossible.

 

im sure I could find plenty of people willing to do it…all over the country, but that doesn’t help me at all.

Yeah while at it I'm also going to note that the Tyranid Monstrous Creature Design rules are quite limited. You cannot build something like a Tyrannofex with it and it has blatant writing errors that is "classic GW doesn't know its own rules".