The constant change of rules and the drive to buy new models…

[abaumann]

I don’t remember 40k really being like this 20 years ago with a constant change to points costs and rules. I’m not quite buying into it after getting back into the game and finding things like a one month difference between getting a new codex and having units in that codex not be good anymore. Need some advice here so I don’t lose interest in the game.

 

I’m wondering what other folks do in this constantly changing environment of units either being great or just ok or terrible suddenly overnight. Seems like a lot to keep up with. I just got done painting some Havocs and Warp Talons recently only to find that they are suddenly going to be hard to utilize. Do people just keep playing units anyway? Or are people constantly buying new models?

 

I know I posted pics of these already, but I put a lot of time into them so here they are again below…

I got my first game in with the new codex yesterday and finally felt like I had a chance at beating things like Thousand Sons (still lost but just barely) by playing Renegade Raiders (I’m honestly not very good at the game and make dumb decisions after a beer or two, haha)... Woke up this morning to a facelift on my army with updated points costs, and not in a good way!

 

Edit: I’m sure I’m speaking for others as well here. What are some ways to think positively about changes to points and rules when they aren’t in your favor? I’d love to keep having fun with the game, which doesn’t involve being competitive, but it would be nice to have some reliable or consistent units that don’t become harder to use after a few months. 

 

 

Edited June 21 by abaumann

[Brother Nathan]

to be fair, from playing from 3rd edition i do prefer that the rules are stil alive, that problems can be fixed and the game can change. it can be bad, codexes being wrong on arrival, and near useless ... see mechanicus...

my nids whove had a boring playstyle just got a nice wee glow up and a new build option in the big zoan unit which is certainly welcome. 

 

so for chaos. i think some time s we need to think of how we have landed compared to other factions. many got bigger hits and so on. hopefully we land in a better blance zone thatn the game was. everyone should based on rules alone have fair chance to win. so where does that leave us with our lists .... do you aim for 2k and stop... or go for more and have optons? i think thats both where we want to be and gw wants us to be. obviously more units more point sis more money for them, but also having that change keeps an interest and stops the game going stagnent. yes list building is tricky without much small points options  but thems the breaks.

 

and yeah my 2k list went down 100 points the other week. got it up to 2k again for it to shoot up by 200. id complain but many of those units were over preforming. to be fair id read talons rule as how its been updated so... really not getting the havocs increase mind... 

 

and finally, beaut models!

[Dr_Ruminahui]

I started playing in 3rd, back when you got your codex and basically had the rules fixed until the end of the edition.  This had its own problems - if you had a terrible codex it stayed terrible and you basically had to suck it up and live with it and hope things were better the next edition.... and then when that came around, hope the selection of units you had were the ones that actually played well with the ruleset that edition.  Plus, there was no "golden zone" of 45-55% win rates, so there was a pretty big gulf in codex powers, with certain codex writers seeming to have been given free reign to generate powerful codexes for their favourite armies, while others were lack luster or down right lousy.  So, some people remember this as the golden days of 40K (5th ed in particular) but I'm guessing those are people who had good codexes. 

 

Now, the rules are driven more by ballance, and I do think they do a better job of that.  It does mean a lot more swings in power levels, as powerful units get nerfed and bad units get buffed, and points get tweaked, which can be tiring.  Personally, given I only play 4 times a year or so, trying to remember the rules changes is what bugs me more than the changes in unit power - and having units I've built be invalidate (no autogun cultists, I'm looking at you) with codex changes.

 

As for units, I always seem to be about an edition behind in my model projects (so, I'm painting stuff I thought would be good in my army the edition before), so chasing the best army list isn't something I do - rather, I tend to field the units I think look good rather than those that play the best.  Besides, I'm not the best player, so its doubtful I could get the most out of an army even if it was optimized.

 

Those are some beautiful alpha legionairies.

Edited June 21 by Dr_Ruminahui

[SvenIronhand]

"You are not compelled to form any opinion about this matter before you, nor to disturb your peace of mind at all. Things in themselves have no power to extort a verdict from you."
 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

GW structures the rules to sell models and rules updates are part of that.  If you want to play competitively or even semi competitively then you just need to accept this.  If you dont like this then give combat patrol or kill team a try. 

 

From GW's point of view the absolute worst 40k players are the old dudes that have huge collections.  If GW didn't structure rules to push NEW models then they would go out of business. 

 

Really nice paint jobs btw.    

[Alcyon]

For my part, I quit both 40k and MTG, Destiny, etc. all the games that seem driven completely by corporate profitability nowadays. The churn of rules makes perfect business sense at least in the short term. I derive all my hobby satisfaction from "dead" games run by fans, mostly 6mm Epic. From a 40k-specific perspective I think if you can find a set of players who feel similarly and want to continue to play with an older or more fixed set of rules, you're golden - I think that's one of the main allures of 30k these days.

[Relic]

I dislike the push towards DLC esque style rules and would be content with a yearly balance update. Like us all, my hobby time is limited and i'd use it painting/playing the game, rather then reading a long PDF about rules changes, such as pivoting!

 

I have enough of a collection built up, that I can switch things up. Equally, rule of cool still applies. Your models look great and I am sure Warp Talons/Havocs are still viable. Likely with Talons, a unit of 10 now and it is a strong, but expensive tool. 

 

Broadly though, in agreement with the sentiment! 

[TrawlingCleaner]

I hope none of this comes across as snooty or uppity but if you've not got the time to go through new rules (I can't blame you, there was a lot this time around!), have limited hobby time or just don't like the way rules are written or are played; only use the rules you want to use and ignore the ones you don't. Warhammer (and all boardgames/tabletop games) is for fun between players as you're opponents in the very loosiest sense of the word, just chat to the person/people you're playing with and figure out something that works for you both. People aren't going to shout you down for not wanting to play the most up to date rules. If you want to just play codexes as they were written when printed, there's so few people that will mind. There's nothing wrong with "Is it cool with you if I just play my codex as it's printed? I'm struggling with keeping up with changes, things are getting too complicated"

 

I think people tend to look back on older editions as being airtight, more fun or better balance wise but it's definitely not the case I think. That's not in a bad way or calling people out either, fun was had and memories were made! I think the biggest difference is that people were more inclined to self patch, houserule or figure things out for themselves. GW does it for us now and with the introduction of the Internet, the Gestalt Consciousness of the hobby tends to say X or Y is bad, you should play a specific way, the people in your group will shout down anything other than competitive, etc

 

As others have said, the Rule of Cool beats all! If you have a unit that you love use them! I've been running Defilers since 8th and they've been entirely trash all the way up to passable 

 

 

For actual balance Warp Talons and Havocs are mostly as they were previously. Warp Talons as they were in the codex were almost impossible to counter play for some armies, forcing them to have to kill something first is more balanced but also a bit more thematic. Coat yourself in the blood of your enemies to keep you safe from the Warp

I do think both Havocs and Warp Talons are still fantastic units for their points. Warp Talons especially fill a similar role to Chosen in that they blitz a unit with a tonne of decent ap attacks and move fast. The benefit of Warp Talons is the "pickup" after killing a unit and inherently rerolling their wounds. I love Havocs and they have a tonne of play jumping out of rhinos or pushing up the board. 10 point changes to both of these don't really mean to much in the grand scheme of things I think

[Karhedron]

A lot of these rules changes only deeply affect competitive players who regularly attend tournaments. Here a change of 5-10% on points or the change to the wording of a rule can have a big effect. But on usual casual gaming the effect is more limited because casual players are less likely to spam units in the first place. Also, my tactical errors are likely to have a bigger effect on the game than subtle tweaks to the rules.

 

Most players have collections that are significantly larger than they can field in any single battle. When GW change something, I don't go out and buy a load of new stuff but I might take the opportunity to update my army lists and rotate a few units in or out. It keeps it fresh and stops game getting repetitive.

[Lord_Ikka]

My advice has been the same for years- buy what you think is cool/what you want to model and paint. Rules come and rules go, but unless you are a competition player, buying a unit just for the power of its rules is a trap. With how active GW has become with rules balancing (not going into whether it is bad or good, just a statement that they have clearly stepped up and become more active in updating stuff), a unit that is on the top tier of competitive lists will likely be removed from that pedestal in six months or a year. 

 

As for playing with a less than great faction/units- I feel the pain. I'm primarily an Imperial Knights player competitively and they have been less than impressive lately (in fact, I'm on a nasty 0-9 losing streak). Still, I've found ways to alleviate the suck by trying different lists/combinations of units, new tactics of deployment/using Reserves, and simply remembering that I'm playing a game in which big stompy robots can be fighting aliens or daemons from a hellscape. What goes around, comes around- spend long enough in an edition and your army will generally be both great and terrible.

[Firedrake Cordova]

So, most important thing first - those are some beautifully painted models

 

As for advice, I'll just mirror @Lord_Ikka. I think a lot of being happy in the gaming side of the hobby is finding a group of people to play who share the same outlook on the hobby as you.

[Galron]

Been playing since early 2nd edition and yes we were pissed when GW flat out lied to us when they said our existing armies would be perfectly fine with minor changes when 3rd came out. And when I say we asked GW, we literally asked devs at a con prior to 3rd. I have gotten used to it over the years. Its a cycle. I mostly play niche army styles and try to make things work, I dont tend to play tournies unless they are small local tournies as I have zero interest in playing against WAAC type players who buy the latest and greatest to keep up with the arms race. Every now and them old units I have get nice glow ups for a short while. Painting and throwing cool schemes on the table is more interesting to me than most other things and would rather win best painted than actually place in a tournament. 

[Schurge]

I played World Eaters for 10 years prior to their codex. I always ran Berserk heavy lists because that's what I wanted to do, and Berserkers were hot garbage, only fit for killing chaff for most of my time with them. (In MEQ metas that made them useless.) If you like Havocs and Warp Talons run them. You could make them work. I imagine Warp Talons would benefit from redundancy, but I am unfamiliar with 10th edition.

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

As many others have mentioned, discussing with your opponent what rules you feel are unnecessary or dumb is an excellent way to get around the constant changes. A perfect comparison is Modding in games, where you are adding/removing/reworking stuff because you like it more and you can just ignore what the devs think the "Proper" way to play is.

 

On a more practical note, a great way to alleviate the annoyance of point changes is to just play bigger games. If you are already not playing that many games and you have to make a day to play Warhammer anyway, increasing the 2000 limit by 200-300 pts can make it more enjoyable. You get to play with more models, you have to worry less about unit performance because you have more units, and it creates a nice wiggle room for more fun lists. To be fair, the downside to this is that games take a little bit longer, so your once-a-month game might take 6 hrs instead of 4 hrs.

 

 

[INKS]

As someone who's mind is still stuck often times in 3rd edition. (it's the edition I played the most) I can tell you that points did not change that often. lol

But, they are also more ingrained in the internet, it's more competitive now and so I think it's natural. I do get it though. You fall in love with this list and soon enough that list won't be good or the points change and so on. that is tough, especially when they are printing hard copy books, makes me not want to buy their 70 dollar book honestly

[Muskie]

I've played since Rogue Trader times. I rarely switch armies. I'm still painting models from previous editions. I am just slow, have limited time, money, energy and actually play WYSIWYG fully painted for the most part. It just forces you to be disciplined. I do think I lose more than I win in the new system, but I try to use models and units from 2nd Edition or that were originally painted for 2nd Edition. I think you should paint and play what you think is cool or you already own. Starting a new army is a big endeavour, same with a new system. A kill team or a blood bowl team I could paint. I think maybe in the olden days I could do it in a weekend. You just have to plan and simplify. I chose or got talked into a really complicated scheme. We'll see if I remember how to highlight black and paint purple flames, I did some a few years back, so I should be able to. 

 

One thing about the new editions at least where and who I play is we play 1000 point games often, so I have plenty of models to choose from and rarely face trendy Internet lists. We also ran a campaign last edition, which basically forces you to use the same units over and over even they are not optimal. We are probably going to do that again, so my thinking is what models look cool and fit into 1000 points so I choose things that are recently painted or haven't been played in twenty years. I try to update the old squads to be the right base size and to have a purpose, even if that purpose is to just soak up bullets by looking big and sitting in the way of whatever the opponent is trying to do. My ten man plague marine squads are basically gluttons for punishment as I slowly arm them with the latest greatest guns. I have a lot of bolters and knives, but in CSM I can run Havocs and hope to run Raptors eventually. Never had Warp Talons but I had jump pack troops in 2nd Edition. I still have metal bits and models sitting around waiting to be painted, see my pledge of a single lord who just go a twenty plus year old bit glued on him to make him unique and intimidating. The bit does nothing else, just looks cool.

[Brother Nathan]

I dont mind changes and the attempt for balance and refeshes but theres time the unietended consequences are demottivational. As ironwarrior  planning to play fell hammer seige host these point increases intending to hit the stronger detachments are gonna hit us most...

[abaumann]

Thanks everyone for the detailed replies, nice to know I’m not alone! I’ll just continue using what I think looks good, making small tweaks where absolutely necessary, and will keep in mind what’s important to me. I think a lot of these types of games are probably similar, and I’ve taken on a ”make jank be good” mentality in other games I play…seems like it’s possible here too! The current age of 40k is an adjustment for sure. But it’s very rewarding to share the artistic side of the hobby between players. Imagine if we had to paint our own MTG cards for example….there would be a lot of people drawing stick figures and playing only the most up-to-date competitive stuff with those stick figures.  Nothing wrong with that, just might not be me in the long-term.

[techsoldaten]

On 6/20/2024 at 7:37 PM, abaumann said:

I’m wondering what other folks do in this constantly changing environment of units either being great or just ok or terrible suddenly overnight.

 

Dealing with it is mostly a matter of discipline.

 

My perspective is the meta is a function of time and price developed to extract as much cash as possible for the benefit of the controlling organization. It's very similar to gambling in that the house has amazingly good odds of profiting compared to players. For players, it's a game that can be won by simply controlling when money is spent. 

 

Short term, never buy any recently released models. The rules will be juiced for whatever you buy. Here and there is okay, but chasing the meta with new purchases means guaranteed disappointment (most often within 6 months.)

 

Longer term, buy other people's armies. Make friends with people who are frustrated so you will be the first call they make when they decide to quit. You want them to call you before they put their army up on eBay, a good way to make this happen is to buy something from them beforehand and make sure they have your number in their phone. Be the simpler option.

 

I have 2 closets in my basement filled with models and can field almost any Chaos, Death Guard, Daemons, Grey Knights, Guard, or Deathwatch army. The total cost for me is maybe 20% of what they all would have cost new and can liquidate whenever I feel like. I sold all my Orks and Voystrans about 5 years ago, which paid for a big chunk of the rest.

 

This is mostly preparation for changes in the meta. If the meta changes, great, I already have the models and can proxy anything I don't have. If it's a bad edition, fair enough, I make up for that using skew lists tailored to destroy specific opponents. If it's a big change I don't like, I don't play. Sat out most of 7th and 9th edition and have barely played any 10th. I have been playing 4th and 8th edition rules with friends.

[conscriptboris]

My local group is tournament focussed. However, I get to play many games with my OG codex and battle cards. I refuse to follow the BS updates, most people are happy for casual games at the local club.

 

Boris

[Verbal Underbelly]

I entered 10th edition with a lot of enthusiasm but it evaporated when they dropped and FAQ / balance update thing just two months later and we were back to the endless cycle of rules tweaks. I'm sure for some dedicated, competitive players it's good to have a living game that changes tack frequently but speaking from my friendship group we find it really fatiguing and sucks the enjoyment from the game. For now I've paused actually playing 40k and have moved onto other systems for that type of enjoyment and it's quite freeing.

I'm still painting my Emperors Children but it's purely a collect and paint project; I'm enjoying choosing the models I like 100% irrespective other whether they're good on the tabletop. 

Edited July 12 by Verbal Underbelly

[Karhedron]

Modeling and painting is a big and enjoyable part of the hobby for me so I would be building new units anyway. The churn is trivial really.