Hopes for book 3

[Crablezworth]

On 7/18/2024 at 6:02 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

Old world just got its 3rd faq since its release in January, clarifying contentious mechanics and doing some light balancing. This is simultaneous to faction supplements rolling out.

 

Its pretty clear that LI falls into the Horus heresy school of release cycle and problem fixing. Aka, push out campaign books with a few new units and don't look back.

 

Well if book 3 drops and still no faq and possibly even more questions/issues and yet more campaign stuff of limited value/use, I think it will be easier to shame them into doing something. The issues are too objectively noticed, like too many people are encountering the same issues/problems in totally different places for it not to be pretty universally wanted but also needed. 

[Pacific81]

I've not kept up on how responsive GW are to this sort of thing, how have other specialist games been treated in the past with FAQs etc?

Mantic, Corvus Belli tend to be very good as they are directly involved with the community and get feedback - you can even have forum conversations with one of the Epic Warpath Mantic guys on the forums and I chatted with him at Salute.

I couldn't even tell you who wrote Legions Imperialis and it feels like GW are running some sort of witness protection that the FBI would be proud of. In fact I've just looked in the Legions rulebook and not a name or 'special thanks' section, which I find more than a little sad (and actually, borderline sociopathic)

 

What happens, do the updates suddenly just pop out of the ether?

[DuskRaider]

From what I remember, the Titanicus FAQ came out fairly quickly, like a few months after release and the big 3 Titan models had finally been released. HHv1 had a fairly quick turn around for an Errata / FAQ, but that was FW and a long time ago. I have no experience with any of the other SG offerings or basically anything else GW makes these days. 

[Crablezworth]

From my very rough understanding, I believe the same people behind HH2 are the ones handling LI, which to my mind explains a lot because the vibe is sorta "my poop doesn't smell" when it comes to what they put out. Perhaps its such an embarrassment they don't want their names on it but I think more than likely it's gw not wanting employees and contractors to make a name for themselves after some high profile past departures. Anuj seemed pretty soft-skinned and there was a prima donna vibe when he left and acted like HH2 was some gift to wargamers but it was actually just a desecration of bligh's work by what would seem to be a flawed narcissist. 

 

I think it's fair to say the staff are just pushover happy to be there. Marketing/model design basically hands them models and tells them to make rules, there doesn't seem to be any planning or comms going both ways. Why I say this is its not just affected LI, you see it in bizarre design decisions for 40k, there seems to have been a push for unit options and sizes to like be 100% tied to box content in an almost ocd like obsession. You can see that with book 2 and the unit options being 100% tied to whats on sprue without any addition logic of being able to buy more than one box and mix and match content, which leads to stuff that doesn't make sense "only half your land speeders can have multimelta heavy flamer" and what's funny is even that isn't consistent with the sprue because it will still allow players to do an entire unit of hb/plasma, even tho it cuts both ways (u only get half and half on sprue no matter what). 

 

It's one thing not to cost weapons or randomly do so with upgrades, but it's a bit sad that like it really does appear that the model design side just hands the rule side 6 russ varients and tells them to make music. But worse still, instead of at least trying to make them make sense they just have obvious winners and losers all costed the same. I think its fair to say most specialist games people go that route to avoid the constant churn of 40k, but being totally ignored is very weird. Like I still can't make sense of GW releasing terminals and dice and stuff for AT but not even a proper set of counters for LI, that's sorta nuts to me. 

[Sherrypie]

GW doesn't put names out as a studio policy, stemming from multiple reasons such as authors getting death threats (Matt Ward's case after 40k 5th ed codices) and pushing the corporation first rather than individual authors, which they've long wanted to do. Rick Priestley has said he pushed the idea already in the 80's, though to his credit mainly removed his own name from various products.

 

As for other Specialist Games, at least Kill Team is constantly errata'd as needed multiple times every year, Necromunda goes through a major overhaul every other release or so and Titanicus has received a solid FAQ with every expansion that currently covers almost every query worth mentioning. This is likely very team-dependent, so I would wager that as much aftercare is given to a project as its handlers can muster between their personal favourites.

[Noserenda]

SGS as a whole is slow and wary with FAQs but its not a unified front, clearly the Old World team and much keener to tidy things up whilst the 30k team needs to be dragged screaming to answer obvious misprints and the like. Ive heard there are a lot of differences of opinions on doing more, and fixing the issues some folks may have created but really the results speak for themselves sadly.

[Crablezworth]

So its up for pre orderon the new zealand gw site 

 

https://www.warhammer.com/en-NZ/shop/legions-imperialis-devastation-of-tallarn-2024-eng?queryID=134c27c936f90d10f5fb8c898cd0d379

 

It's a bit tough to see the index so I typed out what it appears to say. Looks like the will be adding rules for space marine tank commanders. 

[Noserenda]

Im looking forward to some reviews post embargo in a while as ive previously been put off my Armour battalion my the compulsory Kratoses, more and better armour detachments is good!

[Matrindur]

For the card numbers:

 

For Astartes we currently only know about four detachments (Sabre, Sicaran Arcus and Punisher and Terrax) and even if they split up the Sabre too thats still only 5 while there are 6 cards here. They might have combined the Sicarans and doubled up to 6x but in the book itself the Battle Tank section has two pages while the Transport and Light Armour sections have one each which would only make sense if the Sicarans are split.

 

For SA we have 11 detachments while we know about 7 (Four LR versions and 3 Super heavy versions) so I also can't see any variation of combining and doubling up that would make sense and add up to 11 cards
For book pages we have three for the Heavy Armour and four for the Battle Tank sections

 

In conclusion its very likely there are more kits coming

[Valkyrion]

Maybe a new predator kit to align with the Russ kit?

'Battle Tank' rules out artillery, so otherwise only leaves Vindicators I think as a battle tank, unless a Cerberus/Typhon would qualify? 

[Matrindur]

Taken from the Goonhammer review there aren't any additional units in the book. The additional cards could instead be for the Formations of Legends?

[DuskRaider]

Well… I read the review on Goonhammer. The Heavy Assault Spearhead Formation sounds right up my alley for what I wanted when the game first came out (Pride of the Legion type). I’m disappointed that the Formations of Legend are limited to the Legions present at Tallarn, but I guess that should have been expected. 

The new Astartes units seems to be alright, but they’re all expensive. It seems the Sicaran Arcus is a great choice for anti-air, more so than the big standard version. The Punisher seems good at anti-infantry, but with a range of only 12” I would be concerned about said infantry punching it to death first. 

 

[Lord Marshal]

Punishers sound good on paper, but I'm conscious they'd just end up a priority target of every Missile Launcher on the board and be smoking wrecks before they ever get a short BRRRPP off. More vehicles seeing the table is always nice though.

 

I also like the sound of the Heavy Assault Spearhead. I can definitely see it being a popular pick in casual/narrative lists (competitively people will still prefer to spam Demi-Companies/Pioneer Companies obviously) just for freeing up more Support slots from Demi-Companies and giving you a good excuse to rock Spartans/Land Raiders on Terminators, all while being a great alternative to Armoured Companies with allowing multiple Battle Tanks and Heavy Armour. 

 

Titan Hunter Company my beloved. With Warmasters becoming increasingly popular I can imagine it showing up a fair bit.

 

Edited August 3 by Lord Marshal

[Crablezworth]

Marine tank commanders sound interesting, I am a bit disappointed solar aux didn't have their  tank commanders expanded on. 

[DuskRaider]

I’m probably going to pick up another box of Kratos to make a Commander. I imagine that it would just be down to markings or something on Death Guard tanks, I can’t see them flying a banner or some other flashy thing. I like the idea though, and it really does make Armored Companies a bit more interesting and viable. 
 

Something just crossed my mind, though… are they going chronologically through the Heresy or just jumping back and forth? I’m pretty sure that the Battle of Tallarn happened closer to Terra than Isstvan, so I hope that they’re just hopping around because otherwise this is going to be a short trip to the end. 

[Crablezworth]

2 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

I’m probably going to pick up another box of Kratos to make a Commander. I imagine that it would just be down to markings or something on Death Guard tanks, I can’t see them flying a banner or some other flashy thing. I like the idea though, and it really does make Armored Companies a bit more interesting and viable. 
 

Something just crossed my mind, though… are they going chronologically through the Heresy or just jumping back and forth? I’m pretty sure that the Battle of Tallarn happened closer to Terra than Isstvan, so I hope that they’re just hopping around because otherwise this is going to be a short trip to the end. 

 

There are some nice files out there for marine tank commanders. 

 

[Mandragola]

For my tank commander I used the arm from a standard bearer stuck on a commander who was waving and holding binoculars. The waving arm came off easily enough and it went together fine, with the bottom of the banner over the side of the turret. 
 

It’s mad of course but this is heresy. Makes it easily identifiable. 
 

They are fairly easy to get hold of as they can go in a battle tank (predator or Sicaran) or heavy armour slot, or an HQ. So in a Demi company you could take a squadron of tanks, a commander from the HQ slot, and have your unit set up. Or you could take a commander in your tank slot and some sabres for him to command - though he’d struggle to keep up. 

[DuskRaider]

Here’s my question… as far as the Heavy Assault formation, there’s no Core options? The writing of the article makes it sound as though there are only four Support slots and those are to be filled with either Terminators or Dreadnoughts. If so, that’s kind of a bummer. 
 

Terminators should be a Core choice for the formation with either additional Terminators as Support or Dreadnoughts IMO. The only other option is to take multiples of the same Formation, which may be my only choice. 

[Crablezworth]

1 hour ago, DuskRaider said:

Here’s my question… as far as the Heavy Assault formation, there’s no Core options? The writing of the article makes it sound as though there are only four Support slots and those are to be filled with either Terminators or Dreadnoughts. If so, that’s kind of a bummer. 
 

Terminators should be a Core choice for the formation with either additional Terminators as Support or Dreadnoughts IMO. The only other option is to take multiples of the same Formation, which may be my only choice. 

 

I think the amount of termies is locked because they want them paired with the spartans. 

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

For my tank commander I used the arm from a standard bearer stuck on a commander who was waving and holding binoculars. The waving arm came off easily enough and it went together fine, with the bottom of the banner over the side of the turret. 
 

It’s mad of course but this is heresy. Makes it easily identifiable. 
 

They are fairly easy to get hold of as they can go in a battle tank (predator or Sicaran) or heavy armour slot, or an HQ. So in a Demi company you could take a squadron of tanks, a commander from the HQ slot, and have your unit set up. Or you could take a commander in your tank slot and some sabres for him to command - though he’d struggle to keep up. 

 

 

It looks awesome and its practical from a game stand point in that it stands out enough for both players to know exactly which tank is the commander's, cool conversion too. 

[DuskRaider]

9 minutes ago, Crablezworth said:

 

I think the amount of termies is locked because they want them paired with the spartans. 

Be that as it may, I happen to have a lot of Terminators and a lot of Spartans. It’s a bit of a letdown that I’ll have to field multiples of the same formation to properly represent my force, but it is what it is I suppose. 

[Crablezworth]

1 hour ago, DuskRaider said:

Be that as it may, I happen to have a lot of Terminators and a lot of Spartans. It’s a bit of a letdown that I’ll have to field multiples of the same formation to properly represent my force, but it is what it is I suppose. 

 

Well, certainly no limitations are stopping you army construction wise from fielding multiples of the same formation. 

[Pacific81]

For command tanks? A big ole aerial on the back of the tank used to be the preferred method :)

[Mandragola]

11 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

Be that as it may, I happen to have a lot of Terminators and a lot of Spartans. It’s a bit of a letdown that I’ll have to field multiples of the same formation to properly represent my force, but it is what it is I suppose. 

There are four support slots as the compulsory detachments. Two have to be terminators and the other two can be too, or can be dreadnoughts. Terminators have to have land raiders or Spartans. Optional choices are two tanks, two heavy tanks and a plane. 
 

That’s a lot of terminators. Is there a downside to having more formations if it’s really not enough?

 

Personally though I’m not a fan of this formation because it doesn’t really do anything you can’t do with a semi-company. My plan would be to take a core choice of four tactical stands, add four terminators and put them in six land raiders. The land raiders would then get be slightly better for holding objectives.
 

Even so land raiders are a bit strange. You’re paying almost the cost of a detachment to carry a single terminator base. They’re iconic but I’m not sure they’re much good.  

[DuskRaider]

You know, for some reason I completely forgot that maxing out a Terminator slot is 8 bases… I would say 4 slots should be pretty okay. I still wish they were Core instead of Support, but it’ll work. 
 

You are correct though, there isn’t much there that you can’t do with the Demi-Company formation, which is why it has me so confused. Other than cutting out Tacticals and an HQ, I don’t see an advantage. I suppose that goes toward the theme of an all-Terminator formation. Still, it would have been nice to see some FoC difference or perhaps a Terminator Command unit.

 

On the subject of Land Raiders, I think they’re useless unless they’re carrying Tactical Marines (including Heavy and Special Weapons). This is one of the issues I have with the game… they want to keep the troop transport capacity to that of the 28mm game but they can’t do the same with other things like movement or interaction with vehicles, etc. 

Edited August 5 by DuskRaider

[Crablezworth]

On 8/5/2024 at 7:49 AM, DuskRaider said:

On the subject of Land Raiders, I think they’re useless unless they’re carrying Tactical Marines (including Heavy and Special Weapons). This is one of the issues I have with the game… they want to keep the troop transport capacity to that of the 28mm game but they can’t do the same with other things like movement or interaction with vehicles, etc. 

 

Yeah I have a similar feeling with dracosans, in terms of shrugging off shooting attacks they feel about right, but the second they get into combat its so dumb. They can't keep costing these things so high only to have literally lasgun aux be able to slog them to death in close combat. I think more than just not enjoying the combat in he game, in terms of he 2D6 system etc, I'm at a complete loss why here of all places all resilience (saves) are ignored, its such a dumb place to do this. This is the same game that wants us to roll a million dice to resolve a blast or flame template, the same game that wants us to have a detailed accounting system for knowing which models belong to which formations but also chooses to make cover saves overall pretty bad because again, they want life "cheap", but its not equally applied. Like I don't care about scooping infantry, that's what they're for, I do care about scooping like 40-80pt models that are worth the same as 8-16 infantry from combat, it again just feels like why I hate what HH2 has done to vehicles, and I'm reminded that by all accounts li might be some of the same people. Hell we dodged a bullet probably because if anuj was in charge we'd all be complaining about dreadnoughts being the game makers personal fetish. 

 

I just find for a game this scale it spends its time in very weird places.