Do you find Praetors…boring?

[sonsoftaurus]

Aside from being tough beat-sticks, they just seem so bland compared to the Centurion upgrades that can do stuff for your army. 
 

Sure, they open up RoW, but so does a Delegatus, who also…does leader things. And then there’s all the other Centurion types. 
 

I would like to see Praetors do what a Delegatus does or have some other kind of unique ability that makes them something more interesting than a HTH monster. 
 

Do you find them bland too? If so what would you like to see?

Edited July 8 by sonsoftaurus
typos

[Mr Farson]

Yes very much so

 

There's a ruleset I've seen that allows 1 praetor per army to take a consul upgrade which adds a bit more customisability to the model.

 

I quite rarely take a praetor now unless absolutely forced to by a Rite of War requiring a praetor with warsmith etc

[Noserenda]

It feels like at least they have more than 2 loadouts in 2nd at least.

Oh and apparently a lot of narrative event runners find them (and/or Delegatus) fascinating apparently :P

[Bung]

I think for the Rules as they are, the destinction between Preator and Consuls are good.

Choose between your best Beatstick or a specialist.

Giving the Preator the Consul Upgrades would end with result that noone would use Consuls.

[apologist]

My main objection to Praetors is that they're the go-to HQ choice, when that should be the Centurions. I'd prefer to see Praetors get bumped to being unique/Lords of War, as befits their Chapter Master level status. They're meant to be equivalents to the named First Captains etc., not leading a platoon.

 

Centurions should have an option to make them 'Line Captain' or something, to create a step in stats between them and the Chaplain/Librarian equivalents.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Consuls are the specialists that make for interesting / fluffy army builds. Even more so in allied detachments, restricted to one HQ choice.

 

Then we have Consuls in Tartaros and / or Cataphractii armour, which are halfway between a Praetor and 'just a Consul'.

 

Praetors (of any flavour) are your melee beatsticks, but for many armies they are also the main source of LD 10 actualy. Nothing to sniff about. 

 

I'm pretty happy with the inclusion of the Optae from the Beta-Garmon book, since it gives you even more customisation in terms of cheapness for your HQ slot in an allied detachment.

 

Praetors definitely have a place in the game, and in primary detachments of above 2,000 pts. you'll often see a Praetor plus a Consul of sorts.

[sonsoftaurus]

To me the big thing is Praetor vs Delegatus. 
 

Praetor should do what Delegatus does plus higher stats (and cost more than Delegatus), or Delegatus should not give access to RoW. Something to show Praetor as a leader, not just a Champion with more wounds.

[No Foes Remain]

I think it also boils down to points cost as well, if you can afford it you'd get a terminator centurion over the basic one as for 15pts you get a power weapon baked in, another would and (in the case of the Cata) a better save but then it goes on from there if you can afford that then you could probably squeeze in a praetor who is all that and more.

[SkimaskMohawk]

They are definitely boring. 

 

In 1st they were still beatsticks, but they were just better at it. 7 attacks on the charge, barely any multi wound opponents, far less feel no pain, no restriction on melee kill range, overwatch way less impactful, bikes boosting toughness for instant kill threshold; they killed more and died way less. You couple this with consuls being kinda more...flavor choices outside of the delegatus, and really there wasnt much reason to avoid the praetor other than saving points. Oh, and praetors came stock with 2+ armour while centurions didn't, so you saved some points there. 

 

But in 2nd, consuls are really really useful. Giving out LD 10/fearless/scoring, easy access to pinning, denying deepstrike, granting night vision, unpinning your army, giving deepstrike, etc...You then consider how limited the paragon blade actually is in combat now, and it's kinda like, why ever take the praetor? They're basically a more expensive, less useful delegatus.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

Praetors, boring? I don't think so. A bit predictable? Yeah, a little bit, specially in some legions, in my opinion. But as others before me said, the real juicy thing are the consuls. They are the salt and the pepper of the Legion HQ.

Edited July 10 by Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf

[MARK0SIAN]

I have to agree with the general consensus that they’re quite boring. If I need access to a rite I either try to use a named character or go for a delegates.

My Iron warriors Praetor can at least be upgraded to a Warsmith which could be an idea for other legions. Not necessarily them all being able to become warsmiths but have some other legion appropriate upgrade that makes them a bit more interesting. 

[LameBeard]

I’m not a big fan of Warlord traits, they seem a bit too varied in what they are trying to do, so difficult to balance.
 

Maybe *only* Praetors should get them? Oe they could have stripped out the extra reaction from Warlord traits and given it only to the Praetor (and which one could vary by Legion). They could alternatively make some “Praetor only” Warlord traits - it’s a way to give them flavour and let the consuls bring their flavour in a different way. The Praetor would then be reflected (in most cases) as a personality that had been stamped on his troops.

 

[Noserenda]

A legion specific praetor "consul" option could be quite fun, im pretty sure every single Legion replaced Praetor as a rank in universe so thats names covered and thats the hard part! :P 

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, LameBeard said:

Maybe *only* Praetors should get them? Oe they could have stripped out the extra reaction from Warlord traits and given it only to the Praetor

 

I like these things a lot. Maybe even only unlocking reactions with a praetor (or primarch); they're the only ones good enough to react to the shifting tides of battle or something along those lines. Would also be an interesting tradeoff between dedicated bonus from the consul and opportunity flexibility from the praetor.

[sonsoftaurus]

15 hours ago, LameBeard said:

I’m not a big fan of Warlord traits, they seem a bit too varied in what they are trying to do, so difficult to balance.
 

Maybe *only* Praetors should get them? Oe they could have stripped out the extra reaction from Warlord traits and given it only to the Praetor (and which one could vary by Legion). They could alternatively make some “Praetor only” Warlord traits - it’s a way to give them flavour and let the consuls bring their flavour in a different way. The Praetor would then be reflected (in most cases) as a personality that had been stamped on his troops.

 

Both interesting ideas! Or even a praetor gets an extra reaction with his own unit. 

[Petitioner's City]

I feel praetors shouldn't unlock rites of war, that should be centurions and even optae (ie the company and formation commanders leading those formations, not the "high praetorate" of the legion). Not praetors or consuls.

 

I also wish instead praetors came with options to represent their high command role, and were designed with this aspect being why they are a praetor - ie they didn't necessarily have better stats than centurions (although for some legions that does make sense, due to top fighters assuming the highst positions). Praetors include the diplomats, strategic leaders, the high quartermasters, the command hqs of the legion - that generally doesn't make you a better fighter, but rather a better leader - but none of the rules really reflect this leadership aspect beyond ld10. The praetor's role and specialism really is more off-table, and I wish the game allowed that, gave voice to that. And I don't think rites of war really reflect that well either.

 

The main HQs of the game should be the centurion and optae, these are the line captains and officers who really led the majority of legion elements at the scale of the game. I find it really sad the centurion is (perhaps after the Pathfinder and/or optae) the HQ you are least likely to see, when in reality the centurion (and optae) are the hqs most present in (fictional) reality. In the game, there is always much better utility to bringing the praetor, and/or one or more consuls, than an actual "line officer".

Edited July 11 by Petitioner's City

[Bung]

I think the Preator has some Wargear Options the Centurion / Consuls lack.

A Desintegrator Pistol for Servo Armour Preators for example.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

On 7/11/2024 at 6:34 PM, Petitioner's City said:

I feel praetors shouldn't unlock rites of war, that should be centurions and even optae (ie the company and formation commanders leading those formations, not the "high praetorate" of the legion). Not praetors or consuls.

 

I also wish instead praetors came with options to represent their high command role, and were designed with this aspect being why they are a praetor - ie they didn't necessarily have better stats than centurions (although for some legions that does make sense, due to top fighters assuming the highst positions). Praetors include the diplomats, strategic leaders, the high quartermasters, the command hqs of the legion - that generally doesn't make you a better fighter, but rather a better leader - but none of the rules really reflect this leadership aspect beyond ld10. The praetor's role and specialism really is more off-table, and I wish the game allowed that, gave voice to that. And I don't think rites of war really reflect that well either.

 

The main HQs of the game should be the centurion and optae, these are the line captains and officers who really led the majority of legion elements at the scale of the game. I find it really sad the centurion is (perhaps after the Pathfinder and/or optae) the HQ you are least likely to see, when in reality the centurion (and optae) are the hqs most present in (fictional) reality. In the game, there is always much better utility to bringing the praetor, and/or one or more consuls, than an actual "line officer".

There is a simple solution to the problem. Agree with your opponent that all Praetors have to do tedious paperwork on their flagship and have to send minor officers to lead the forces on the battlefield.

[sonsoftaurus]

2 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

There is a simple solution to the problem. Agree with your opponent that all Praetors have to do tedious paperwork on their flagship and have to send minor officers to lead the forces on the battlefield.

“Just use the standard S7918 and write in ‘For the Warmaster’ where it says ‘For the Emperor’.”

[Gorgoff]

 

They are definitely boring. 

 

In 1st they were still beatsticks, but they were just better at it. 7 attacks on the charge, barely any multi wound opponents, far less feel no pain, no restriction on melee kill range, overwatch way less impactful, bikes boosting toughness for instant kill threshold; they killed more and died way less. You couple this with consuls being kinda more...flavor choices outside of the delegatus, and really there wasnt much reason to avoid the praetor other than saving points. Oh, and praetors came stock with 2+ armour while centurions didn't, so you saved some points there. 

 

Additionally he also lost another important trait in 2ed.

In 1ed Warlord Traits weren't choosen but instead we had to role on a table to see what our warlord can do.

The Praetor could role twice and choose which one he takes. That meant he ore often than not had a very useful WL trait while other characters often had some mediocre or straight p garbage one. 

Now everyone can choose which made (besides the changes you rightfully meantioned already) him kind of pointless. 

He should have something like that again. Something unique which only he brings. 

"At the start of each of his player turns the Praetor can choose a unit in his detachment which instantly gets the line rule".

Oi ya knuckleheads! Hold that bloody position over there.

 

[Xenith]

Only allowing the second reaction part of the WLT's for praetors is cool, or maybe only the first part should be. and centurions only give the extra reaction? Just had a look at the optae, and while fun, definitely lacking crunch. He has the profile of a veteran and should be costed as such, and~20-25pts. not 40. At 40, then +10 for AA, you're at 50 and might as well get a centurion for the +1BS, A, 5++ and ability to be a consul.

 

The Optae/centurion/praetor would then reflect the old 3rd ed Leader/Commander/Force commander, where the elader was 30pts and basically a veteran sergeant. 

[dicebod]

I love all the suggestions in this thread for bringing a bit more character back to the praetor beyond just "he hits real hard."

If there is a desire to give him more combat utility, maybe bring back something like the orbital bombardment the old Master of Signals had. Give him a S10 AP1 large blast he can slap down on the field once per game or something.