What should 11th look like?

[DemonGSides]

The idea that wargaming HAS to be some non digital things is hilarious when so much of 40k is played on Tabletop Simulator.

 

Let alone the craziness of the idea that wargames HAVE to be understood through printed books. What an insane take.  Prefer a bound book all you want; thinking that wargaming HAS to be done out of a book probably makes a lot of the people pushing OPR feel a little weird. 

[DuskRaider]

Well thankfully you don’t run the company then. 

[SvenIronhand]

 

I personally, genuinely hate TTS 40k, though. I’m fine with competitive IRL, but TTS strips all the actual hobby aspects out of a wargame. That said, digital rules would be fine. We already have a half-measure with the indexes.
 

13 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

The idea that wargaming HAS to be some non digital things is hilarious when so much of 40k is played on Tabletop Simulator.

 

Let alone the craziness of the idea that wargames HAVE to be understood through printed books. What an insane take.  Prefer a bound book all you want; thinking that wargaming HAS to be done out of a book probably makes a lot of the people pushing OPR feel a little weird. 

 

Edited July 18 by SvenIronhand

[phandaal]

30 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

 

I personally, genuinely hate TTS 40k, though. I’m fine with competitive IRL, but TTS strips all the actual hobby aspects out of a wargame. That said, digital rules would be fine. We already have a half-measure with the indexes.
 

 

 

TTS is just a video game, basically. Wargaming is a physical hobby. Otherwise it is just Total War with extra steps.

 

I agree about the rules, although probably we could have both digital and tree-based if we could expect the rules to be mostly correct when they are released. People assume digital-only rules will result in the rules themselves working better, but I do not think that is guaranteed.

 

Edit: also, when I play OPR, I bring a printed copy of the rules. The OPR team were actually surprised recently when they did a pass on their digital rules to make them look fancy and professional, and the #1 request they got after was for a printer-friendly version. They ended up making another version without all the bells and whistles just so people could keep printing them out.

 

So yeah, people like their trees. I like my trees. It really do be like that.

Edited July 18 by phandaal

[DemonGSides]

40 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

 

I personally, genuinely hate TTS 40k, though. I’m fine with competitive IRL, but TTS strips all the actual hobby aspects out of a wargame. That said, digital rules would be fine. We already have a half-measure with the indexes.

 

 

That's fine, no one is making you play 40k on TTS. But to say that those people who do aren't war gamers or are somehow less gamers than anyone else interested in the game is frankly stupid. 

[phandaal]

33 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

 

That's fine, no one is making you play 40k on TTS. But to say that those people who do aren't war gamers or are somehow less gamers than anyone else interested in the game is frankly stupid. 

 

Not sure about "less gamers" or anything like that, but a TTS game is very different than a physical game with miniatures.

 

If you take away the minis, then it is just a video game. We do recognize that video gaming is different than wargaming, and one of the main differences is the physical aspect.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, SvenIronhand said:

 

I personally, genuinely hate TTS 40k, though. I’m fine with competitive IRL, but TTS strips all the actual hobby aspects out of a wargame. That said, digital rules would be fine. We already have a half-measure with the indexes.
 

 

TSS is fine when you're testing new ideas without wanting to commit to buying models yet. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

......then print out whatever relevant rules you need for the game? Your preference for physical books doesn't trump the ease of updating digital rules. 

No one is forcing people to buy codexes now that the app exists…like I really don’t get the obsession with demanding the end of hard copy versions of the rules…

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

The idea that wargaming HAS to be some non digital things is hilarious when so much of 40k is played on Tabletop Simulator.

 

Let alone the craziness of the idea that wargames HAVE to be understood through printed books. What an insane take.  Prefer a bound book all you want; thinking that wargaming HAS to be done out of a book probably makes a lot of the people pushing OPR feel a little weird. 

Who is saying a wargame HAS to have hard copy rules?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

35 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

Not sure about "less gamers" or anything like that, but a TTS game is very different than a physical game with miniatures.

 

If you take away the minis, then it is just a video game. We do recognize that video gaming is different than wargaming, and one of the main differences is the physical aspect.

This is great point.

Are dawn of war players any different than TTS players?

[SvenIronhand]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

That's fine, no one is making you play 40k on TTS. But to say that those people who do aren't war gamers or are somehow less gamers than anyone else interested in the game is frankly stupid. 

That's not what I said, is it? I said it strips the hobby aspects out and that I hate it. And this isn't me being unacquainted with it, either. 

[gaurdian31]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

This is great point.

Are dawn of war players any different than TTS players?

Yes, the TTS players use the actual rules for the game, Dawn of War is a completely different game with different rules. Just because they play on screen instead of a board doesn't mean they aren't playing Warhammer 40000. Do you think that people who play Baldur's Gate are playing the same game as people playing DnD on Roll20?

[phandaal]

Just now, gaurdian31 said:

Yes, the TTS players use the actual rules for the game, Dawn of War is a completely different game with different rules. Just because they play on screen instead of a board doesn't mean they aren't playing Warhammer 40000. Do you think that people who play Baldur's Gate are playing the same game as people playing DnD on Roll20?

 

No, but you can also understand that playing D&D on a virtual tabletop is different than playing a D&D game in person.

 

We aren't talking about D&D though. We are talking about wargaming, which is a hobby that uses physical miniatures to enact battles on physical tabletops. Taking away the physical aspect of wargaming makes it not wargaming anymore.

 

This should not be such a controversial thing to say. Playing games on TTS is not a personality trait.

[DemonGSides]

7 minutes ago, SvenIronhand said:

That's not what I said, is it? I said it strips the hobby aspects out and that I hate it. And this isn't me being unacquainted with it, either. 

 

No but others did and I was using your post as a jumping off point because it was the most recent response. Sorry for the confusion.

 

18 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Who is saying a wargame HAS to have hard copy rules?

 

Like, multiple people in this thread have. 

[gaurdian31]

3 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

No, but you can also understand that playing D&D on a virtual tabletop is different than playing a D&D game in person.

 

We aren't talking about D&D though. We are talking about wargaming, which is a hobby that uses physical miniatures to enact battles on physical tabletops. Taking away the physical aspect of wargaming makes it not wargaming anymore.

 

This should not be such a controversial thing to say. Playing games on TTS is not a personality trait.

Well yeah, playing Warhammer isn't a personality trait either. To you playing the game on a physical board with physical miniatures makes it a wargame. The same can be said of DnD, it needs the physical map, minis, character sheets and dice to be D&D to some. Both games can be played virtually now and still be the source game, that shouldn't be controversial. Things change.

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

Well yeah, playing Warhammer isn't a personality trait either. To you playing the game on a physical board with physical miniatures makes it a wargame. The same can be said of DnD, it needs the physical map, minis, character sheets and dice to be D&D to some. Both games can be played virtually now and still be the source game, that shouldn't be controversial. Things change.

 

Well, at least we can agree that playing TTS is not playing Warhammer. 

 

And yes, when looking at what makes wargaming, the minis and the physical location are what make the difference. Otherwise you are running into the question of what makes it wargaming as opposed to video gaming.

 

If the physical part is not what makes the difference, what is? You can get all of the other stuff from a video game.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

34 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

Yes, the TTS players use the actual rules for the game, Dawn of War is a completely different game with different rules. Just because they play on screen instead of a board doesn't mean they aren't playing Warhammer 40000. Do you think that people who play Baldur's Gate are playing the same game as people playing DnD on Roll20?

Dawn of war is also warhammer 40k 

[Scribe]

What a crazy turn we are going down here.

 

To anyone who played over the decades, playing on a simulator is obviously going to be a different experience. I dont know how different, but different. The whole angle that the game needs physical books, is also a weird one to me.

 

These are valid topics for discussion of course, but its not solving the discussion of what would be better for GW, better for gamers, better for the game.

 

For those things, we just need to go back to 5th.

 

(Kidding! Maybe! :D )

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

30 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

No but others did and I was using your post as a jumping off point because it was the most recent response. Sorry for the confusion.

 

 

Like, multiple people in this thread have. 

Who I have not seen a single post saying that.

ive seen people say they still want hard copies, but not a single person claiming hard copy rules are necessary 

[gaurdian31]

1 minute ago, phandaal said:

 

Well, at least we can agree that playing TTS is not playing Warhammer. 

 

And yes, when looking at what makes wargaming, the minis and the physical location are what make the difference. Otherwise you are running into the question of what makes it wargaming as opposed to video gaming.

 

If the physical part is not what makes the difference, what is? You can get all of the other stuff from a video game.

All of the rules is what makes it different. Just because the computer is moving your model 6 inches on the virtual table instead of your hand picking it up doesn't make the move any different. The decisions you make in TTS are the same you do on the physical board.  If it wasn't on a screen but was projected holographically would it still not be a wargame to you? What about using flat tokens? Do they have to be minis? We aren't going to agree on this and that is fine but to me it is still wargaming. 

[Scribe]

I mean I dont know the value of quibbling over 'wargaming' the definition thereof.

 

Its gaming.

Its 40K, assuming the rules are implemented correctly and fully.

 

Wargaming? I mean do we need to define what roleplaying is, in D&D? Do we argue that 'you are not playing MTG if you allow a computer to shuffle for you'?

 

I dont know guys, seems like a fools errand to go down this path.

[gaurdian31]

3 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Dawn of war is also warhammer 40k 

Fire Warrior is Warhammer 40k,  Wraith and Glory the RPG is also Warhammer 40k too, your point being?

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, gaurdian31 said:

Fire Warrior is Warhammer 40k,  Wraith and Glory the RPG is also Warhammer 40k too, your point being?

 

Yeah see, if we are going to do down this path, and again I dont know that its going to result in much positivity here, we need to define these things. All of the above are '40K' but also none of them are '40K' aka 10th Edition. Hell, 5th isnt '40K' its a version, a game in the setting of, but if we show up at a shop and I say 'lets play 40K' and I pull out my laptop and fire up Dawn of War, I wouldnt be in the right if people got confused.

[DuskRaider]

13 minutes ago, Scribe said:

…For those things, we just need to go back to 5th.

 

(Kidding! Maybe! :D )

Sign me up. 

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, gaurdian31 said:

All of the rules is what makes it different. Just because the computer is moving your model 6 inches on the virtual table instead of your hand picking it up doesn't make the move any different. The decisions you make in TTS are the same you do on the physical board.  If it wasn't on a screen but was projected holographically would it still not be a wargame to you? What about using flat tokens? Do they have to be minis? We aren't going to agree on this and that is fine but to me it is still wargaming. 

 

Any RTS computer game has rules for moving, interacting at specific distances, probability etc. Any turn-based shooter game has those same things as well. Rules are not wargaming.

 

To the other parts, I would say yes, tokens are still wargaming because you are still there in person doing it.

 

As for holograms, we would have to ask our robot overlords to let us out of our bug pods inside the Matrix before I could tell you that.  But I would probably say yes, if you are there in person doing it with someone then it is wargaming, but in the future.

 

8 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I mean I dont know the value of quibbling over 'wargaming' the definition thereof.

 

Quibbling over stupid :cuss: is like 90% of what makes this thread interesting!