What should 11th look like?

[Nephaston]

Personally my biggest gripe is the approach to balance the rules team seems to follow; "This unit overperforms, we could up the points or nerf the stats. LET'S DO BOTH!" I could deal with less of that.

 

Overall I wouldn't be surprised to see a modular rules thing like sigmar does now. But maybe slightly altered like; Basic Ruleset to play the game. add-ons like terrain, stratagems, etc. and maybe something like advanced vehicle tactics so one can decide if they want vehicles as they are now, or as the super deep vehicle sim it could be. Because a good ruleset could be both an easy and quick to play game at the baseline with slot in rules for the ones craving it.

That of course would require that the rules team doesn't spend half the time writing picking their noses.

 

On 7/9/2024 at 6:36 PM, CL_Mission said:

Centimetres, D10s

D12s and we have a deal.

 

1 hour ago, DuskRaider said:

Tanks don’t have wounds. Neither do Dreadnoughts. 

Neither do infantry until they receive damage. It's just grandfathered GW weirdness to call the universal concept of Health a "wound capacity". Where else does one encounter the sentence "Your unit gets wounded, and therefore loses one wound"

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

Tanks don’t have wounds. Neither do Dreadnoughts. 

 

I'm pretty sure all dreadnought pilots are wounded, so ipso facto... :P

[HeadlessCross]

On 7/10/2024 at 10:50 AM, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I mean, maybe, just maybe I'd be inclined to consider them being bad game design if...any arguments were ever advanced about them being bad design lol. Instead we have issues rolling the scatter die close by, not placing the template on top of the affected models and idk, playing people you wouldn't want to play in general. 

 

Idk, the "trust me bro, the old mechanics were actually bad  design for reasons I will never elaborate on, and the new ones are better, for equally unexplained reasons" falls flat every time I see it. Guess it doesn't help that most people vehemently defending modern 40k against the older editions never played those old editions lol.

If your argument relies on anyone disputing a scatter roll as "people you wouldn't want to play in general", is that actually a good mechanic?

 

On top of that, there's the failure of Blast having an impact in general due to even spacing out models by 1" carelessly. It isn't something that somehow promotes "smart play" if it's countered by even an 8 YO playing the game. 

 

Also I've played since 3rd Edition so you're already wrong to begin with. Nostalgia is the only real defense for Blast Markers and Templates. It's good they're gone. 

[HeadlessCross]

8 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

You're definitely not wrong about it getting somewhat clunky and awkward in some circumstances. I think that some of the problem character models should probably get their buff changed to an aura, and maybe have something like the tech marines ability to get Lone Operative if they're close enought to friendly models.

 

I recogniythat I'm basically re creating the "Lookout sir" rules from 8th/9th but my point is that they could allow both systems to be present for different characters.

 

Another option is to just change Precision so that it allocates to the character before the to wound roll, rather than after, then it wouldn't matter if the character has a wildly different T compared to its escort.

 

Still wouldn't fix stuff like the Tyranids, but again, Auras could do so easily for the units that it makes sense to.

I actually preferred the character rules for 8th/9th. A Chappy only yelling to fight better and only one squad near him feeling it just doesn't make a lot of sense. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

40 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

If your argument relies on anyone disputing a scatter roll as "people you wouldn't want to play in general", is that actually a good mechanic?

 

My argument doesn't though? The main solution to removing scatter argument is rolling it close to the unit to eliminate parallax.

 

But if you're in Cpt_Reaper's shoes where his opponents apparently constantly argued for their advantage and to diminish his, those are people you don't want to play in general. Some people will try and squeeze an advantage out of anything; line of sight, ranges, model placement, and yes, blasts when they were in the game. I learned pretty early on playing pickup games when I was 13 that getting everything questioned on my part while my opponent was clearly moving 8" meant I wasn't going to play any more games against that person. Or the guy who'd refuse to tell people what units were in what transports, and would batch roll a bunch of mixed weapons simultaneously fail to declare the dice so the most advantageous would always hit. Some people aren't worth playing. 

 

40 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

On top of that, there's the failure of Blast having an impact in general due to even spacing out models by 1" carelessly. It isn't something that somehow promotes "smart play" if it's countered by even an 8 YO playing the game. 

 

And yet, a common criticism of 5th was that the leaf blower was too dominant; same with Heresy 1st. They certainly didnt fail by any army having 1" coherency lol. 

 

40 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Also I've played since 3rd Edition so you're already wrong to begin with. Nostalgia is the only real defense for Blast Markers and Templates. It's good they're gone. 

 

Ya, sure you have lol; you're not fooling anyone with that last embarrassing claim. Maybe watching 8 year olds play since 3rd. Or making burner accounts on forums since then.

 

Still waiting for an argument of how blasts were a bad game mechanic.

Edited July 11 by SkimaskMohawk

[DuskRaider]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I'm pretty sure all dreadnought pilots are wounded, so ipso facto... :P

I’ll give you that one lol

[Scribe]

17 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Still waiting for an argument of how blasts were a bad game mechanic.

 

Despite being in the "5th was better, and the old framework was far better." camp.

 

1. Templates take more time.

 

Thats it. Now, when one looks at the other 'developments' post 5th? Clearly that argument doesnt matter since all GW has done for decades is bloat the experience and make everything run longer.

[SkimaskMohawk]

54 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Despite being in the "5th was better, and the old framework was far better." camp.

 

1. Templates take more time.

 

Thats it. Now, when one looks at the other 'developments' post 5th? Clearly that argument doesnt matter since all GW has done for decades is bloat the experience and make everything run longer.

 

Lol ya, I'll give you rolling a scatter dice, scattering it and counting hits takes more time than just rolling to hit with 5th edition volume of shots. And obviously, we both know that the game has gone far past that hour and a half to set up and play a full game; the "modern" version being way slower without the slow mechanic makes it a moot point. 

[Scribe]

21 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Lol ya, I'll give you rolling a scatter dice, scattering it and counting hits takes more time than just rolling to hit with 5th edition volume of shots. And obviously, we both know that the game has gone far past that hour and a half to set up and play a full game; the "modern" version being way slower without the slow mechanic makes it a moot point. 

 

I gave it the College try. ;)

[crimsondave]

Quote

If your argument relies on anyone disputing a scatter roll as "people you wouldn't want to play in general", is that actually a good mechanic?

Seems solid to me.  

Edited July 12 by crimsondave

[DuskRaider]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Lol ya, I'll give you rolling a scatter dice, scattering it and counting hits takes more time than just rolling to hit with 5th edition volume of shots. And obviously, we both know that the game has gone far past that hour and a half to set up and play a full game; the "modern" version being way slower without the slow mechanic makes it a moot point. 

Maybe it’s just me but I like a game that lasts a while. My friends and I used to have some of the most epic games and crazy scenarios play out because of all those old rules and the big scary mean templates and scatter.
 

Games that only take an hour or so to finish are like getting a meal McDonald’s. Sure it’ll fill you up, but it’s not that good. I’d rather sit down and enjoy my meal and savor the time I had doing so. 

[HeadlessCross]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

My argument doesn't though? The main solution to removing scatter argument is rolling it close to the unit to eliminate parallax.

 

But if you're in Cpt_Reaper's shoes where his opponents apparently constantly argued for their advantage and to diminish his, those are people you don't want to play in general. Some people will try and squeeze an advantage out of anything; line of sight, ranges, model placement, and yes, blasts when they were in the game. I learned pretty early on playing pickup games when I was 13 that getting everything questioned on my part while my opponent was clearly moving 8" meant I wasn't going to play any more games against that person. Or the guy who'd refuse to tell people what units were in what transports, and would batch roll a bunch of mixed weapons simultaneously fail to declare the dice so the most advantageous would always hit. Some people aren't worth playing. 

 

 

And yet, a common criticism of 5th was that the leaf blower was too dominant; same with Heresy 1st. They certainly didnt fail by any army having 1" coherency lol. 

 

 

Ya, sure you have lol; you're not fooling anyone with that last embarrassing claim. Maybe watching 8 year olds play since 3rd. Or making burner accounts on forums since then.

 

Still waiting for an argument of how blasts were a bad game mechanic.

Much hostility, such rose tinted glasses, wow.

 

1. Hate to tell you this, but if the scatter isn't accurate you probably don't want extra dudes to die because of that. There's always "arguing for advantage" regardless of the reasons behind it (whether for accuracy or you're WAAC).

SO if you're going to lump anything into that same category, no wonder you didn't have opponents argue with you. They probably didn't want your bizarre accusations thrown at them. 

2. I'm not sure what your point about Leafblower lists is. 

3. Ah yes, the good ol' "you're not a REAL 40k player if you XYZ". Did you call people "travelers" because of the female custodes debacle? I'll bet you did because that's not true 40k from 5th edition!

 

And yeah arguments were provided why Blasts and Templates weren't good in this thread (and I'msure it has been done in others), but you ignored them because muh nostalgia. Time spent, scatter dice can't be fully accurate for placement, odd interactions of what units a blast COULD scatter to, easily countered due to everyone and their mother using the full 2" coherence, and, due to how unreliable they were (especially the small blasts) you basically required Twin Linked to do actually hit something reliably. That's not even counting the "immersion" argument, which is laughable considering that a Vindicator could only ever inflict one wound if it managed to wound a Carnifex or Wraithlord. 

[Kallas]

8 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

My friends and I used to have some of the most epic games and crazy scenarios play out because of all those old rules and the big scary mean templates and scatter.

My favourite memory of 5th is playing a Deathwing force vs Necrons - had a Necron Lord teleport with the shroud thingy, scatter, lose most of his squad because it landed pretty much fully on the Vindicator meaning most of them died; then the Lord used something (it's been a long while) which got Weapon Destroyed, disabling the Demolisher Cannon. Belial came along, killed the Lord and through a series of combats most of the Necron army routed after inflicting a bunch of damage, so it ended up with Belial and crippled Vindicator escorting a bunch of Necrons off the board - we joked that clearly the Necron Lord had manifested inside the Demolisher Cannon, which is why it had stopped working. Still one of my favourite memories of 5th, alongside Belial tanking a heap of Tyranids (like, two Carnifexes, a Hive Tyrant, and a squad of Warriors, like, a lot) and actually surviving to the end (or at least the last turn), it was a helluva game.

 

Scatter/Templates are great fun, the biggest problem with them based on 8th and beyond is the scale has been pushed too far. We have tons of models and lots of the previous blast weapons are available in very large quantities that would slow the game down. Personally, I am of the opinion that the scale needs to be pulled back some, 40k is getting a bit lost in the push to just sellsellsell, regardless of the experience (also why I dislike the removal of the FOC), but I can at least understand why templates aren't a good fit for 10th.

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

Maybe it’s just me but I like a game that lasts a while. My friends and I used to have some of the most epic games and crazy scenarios play out because of all those old rules and the big scary mean templates and scatter.
 

Games that only take an hour or so to finish are like getting a meal McDonald’s. Sure it’ll fill you up, but it’s not that good. I’d rather sit down and enjoy my meal and savor the time I had doing so. 

 

Eh game length for the sake of it doesn't matter imo. An hour and a half to play two turns and one player concede is always going to be less satisfying to me than an hour and a half to get all 5 turns down and calculate the score. 

 

 

[DemonGSides]

Anyone finishing a 10th Ed game in an hour and a half had my curiosity piqued. I've played pretty much all points levels at this time and have never gotten that slim. That's like speed playing; you even putting models on the board at that point?  Go play a video game.

 

Meanwhile I'm over here playing 5-6 hour games, because I'm a human having fun with my friends.

[DuskRaider]

34 minutes ago, Kallas said:

Scatter/Templates are great fun, the biggest problem with them based on 8th and beyond is the scale has been pushed too far. We have tons of models and lots of the previous blast weapons are available in very large quantities that would slow the game down. Personally, I am of the opinion that the scale needs to be pulled back some, 40k is getting a bit lost in the push to just sellsellsell, regardless of the experience (also why I dislike the removal of the FOC), but I can at least understand why templates aren't a good fit for 10th.

This I do agree with. I took a hiatus from 40K during 7th Edition and when I jumped back in after 8th launched, I was shocked how big the game was compared to older editions. Before, fielding 28 Plague Marines was a huge point investment. 8th Edition, I had almost double that with double the amount of Terminators and room for a ton of other units. It’s basically become Apocalypse at this point, or close to it compared to when I started back in 3rd. 
 

It really does need to be reigned in. The idea of fielding my Knights army is really cool until you realize just how massive the game is now and how much the game itself has sacrificed in order to make that work. Workish. Even then, that army is a shell of its former self with bland, boring rules. GW has sacrificed the character of the game to make it bigger and faster. 

[phandaal]

On 7/9/2024 at 10:19 AM, sonsoftaurus said:

Don’t playtest, don’t seriously edit, put out books that are obsolete as soon as they are released, overcorrect any problems so you can make new ones, keep rinsing and repeating. 
 

That’s what I expect it’ll look like.

 

What would I like? A tight, clear rule set, slower better thought out and tested releases with better internal and external balances. 
 

But the former is more likely.

 

This is what I was hoping 10th would be, honestly. They said all the right stuff at the beginning, and showed off a lot of good individual bits of rules, but then it all just fell apart.

 

So for 11th... Actually doing what they said they would do for 10th would be a good start.

 

At this point, it seems foolish to think anything will change. Unless people stop showing up for tournaments, YouTubers stop making hyped-up battle reports, or the money dries up in a way that demonstrably points towards the rules, things will continue the way they are.

 

It might actually be interesting to see how 11th edition is marketed though. What bugbears are going to be offered up on the chopping block to get people hyped before release?

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Meanwhile I'm over here playing 5-6 hour games, because I'm a human having fun with my friends.

 

A single game??? 

[Emperor Ming]

I use a chess clock all the time now, even in casual games, 

 

not cos I'm crazy competitive, I just want the game to last no more than 3hrs

[Cenobite Terminator]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

A single game??? 

Curious to know what’s the latest edition you’ve played.

[Scribe]

If a normal game of 10th is 5 hours, that's that's a legit joke. 

2 minutes ago, Cenobite Terminator said:

Curious to know what’s the latest edition you’ve played.

 

9th, mid edition. 

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

A single game??? 

 

Yeah!  I play the game to have fun, and that generally involves a few beers and chit chatting and maybe a stop down for a snack or a quick jaunt outside for a smoke or whatever.

Are you guys just sitting there not talking and just rolling dice and only announcing the results?  Y'all can miss me with that boring existence.

 

Like, unless whoever is hosting got everything set up ahead of time (lol never gonna happen with children existing), board set up and getting the armies out fo cases and all that is at least a half hour to an hour, depending if we liked the rules we pulled or want to talk about what armies we're gonna play.  Then it's like a half hour to hour of deployment depending on how big the game is while razzing each other about paint jobs and positioning.  Early battle rounds obviously take alot longer do to there being alot more on the board, whereas the latter rounds clip right by.

 

6 hours is probably on the long side; the last game I played was around that, but it was a 4k v 4k game so obviously gonna be twice what a normal game would probably be.

I'm not timing my games, but from when I arrived at my buddy's house that's 45-60 min away, to when I get home is usually about 8 hours.  So two hours of commute with 6 hours inbetween that I call "Game time".

I'm not playing Warhammer for the simulation aspect.  I'm playing it for the board game aspect of playing a war game with friends.  I think a lot of people could probably be a lot happier with the hobby if they kept that mind set.

Edited July 12 by DemonGSides

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Are you guys just sitting there not talking and just rolling dice and only announcing the results?  Y'all can miss me with that boring existence.

 

No, not at all, and we used to incorporate a top of turn 4 "smoke" break.

 

5th just allowed for that all to be done sub 2 hours. Set up, play, pack up.

 

5 to 6 hours for a single game? Miss me lol.

[DemonGSides]

2 minutes ago, Scribe said:

No, not at all, and we used to incorporate a top of turn 4 "smoke" break.

 

5th just allowed for that all to be done sub 2 hours. Set up, play, pack up.

 

5 to 6 hours for a single game? Miss me lol.

 

Actually game play is probably closer to 3, which is about what tournaments expect too.

I just enjoy the social aspect.  I get not everyone does.

[Scribe]

11 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Actually game play is probably closer to 3, which is about what tournaments expect too.

I just enjoy the social aspect.  I get not everyone does.

 

Oh the social aspect is great, we had a ton of laughs and good times, its not like we rushed.

 

The fact the 'tournament' game is twice as long as it used to be, is brutal. That's not to anyone's benefit, and GW has bloated the game to push plastic.