Which was/were the most important loyalist legion(s) in the Horus Heresy?

[TheArtilleryman]

A post on a different thread got me thinking:

 

 

The poster of the above made the comment that the Sons of Horus are the “poster boys” of the traitor legions but the Imperial Fists are not the “main” loyalists.

 

My inevitable question then: is @skylerboodiecorrect? who do you think is the “main” loyalist legion?

 

See, the Fists for me are actually one of the most significant , what with them laying the defence of Terra itself and Dorn taking overall command after Horus’s betrayal.
 

The Ultramarines, who are the usual loyalist “poster boys,” don’t have much impact in the heresy overall, being occupied in the east. The wolves have a significant part to play but are pretty much ruined early on. The three shattered legions are symbolically significant but their impact is limited to smaller engagements after Istvaan. 
 

This leaves the Blood Angels, White Scars and Dark Angels. We all know the DA have a massive storyline within the heresy but how significant was their contribution to the overall campaign? The Scars and the BA both fight at the siege and of course Sanguinius has a pivotal (and possibly the most famous) role in the whole thing.

 

 What are your thoughts?

Edited July 15 by TheArtilleryman

[darkhorse0607]

I honestly don't think there is a "main" loyalist legion in the same way that you could point to the SoH as the face of the traitors (or maybe the Iron Warriors for keeping it all together), for the loyalists it was much more of a team effort.

 

Yes, once you get to the Siege, the Fists did a lot of the heavy lifting, as much as I don't care for them sometimes I don't think objectively you could deny that. But, if we are looking at the Heresy as a whole, they didn't do a lot.

 

The Blood Angels are pivotal because of Sangiunius but other than Signus which didn't play a huge role and the Siege, they were mainly floating around with the Imperium Secundus arc. Plus if the Ultramarines hadn't played around with the Pharos, who knows where they would have ended up or how long they would've taken to get anywhere

 

The Dark Angels played a role, but again, it was a piece and I don't think (other than Corswain and friends) it was that pivotal to be doing what they did when they did it, especially since the job of destroying traitor homeworlds was finished after the Heresy. Thramas tied up the Night Lords but I wouldn't say they made the biggest difference either

 

Space Wolves played a part but it was limited considering the wound Russ gave Horus wasn't really that impactful post-Slaves to Darkness

 

Shattered Legions played a role, but again, kind of like the Dark Angels, they helped but I wouldn't say they were the defining elements

 

The Ultramarines did manage to grind down some of the Word Bearers and World Eaters, and you could say without Ultramar, the Blood Angels might not have made it to Terra when they did (and the Dark Angels would still be doing whatever) but I don't think they were super important either. Arguably, you could say they were less important because of the changes made in The End and the Death where

Spoiler

instead of rolling up on the traitors they were fighting with the warp rather than continually putting pressure on Horus by arriving sooner than they wanted

 

Etc.

 

This is probably a cop-out, but as I said, I honestly don't think you could point to one Loyalist legion and make the case that they were the crucial piece. The argument could probably be made best for the Fists because of the Siege, but without all of the other things that legions did before the Traitors even got to Terra, then the Fists would've gotten hit a lot harder than they did and might not have held long enough.

 

edit after thinking about it

 

If I absolutely had to pick one (my first answer is still my primary answer)

 

If we are just focused on the Siege then the Fists

 

Overall, I would say the Blood Angels. Yes, they weren't at Istvaan, fighting legions like the Scars did with the Death Guard, or organizing defenses but Sangiunius was the heart of the defense at Terra, he was on the line boosting morale, fighting almost the entire time, held the Eternity gate against Angron and Khabanda and then fought Horus. Outside of the Siege, he was the Emperor for Imperium Secundus, the legion had the whole Signus adventure, were at Beta Garmon, and fought through the Ruinstorm. Not to mention everything they did at the Siege

Edited July 14 by darkhorse0607

[MARK0SIAN]

I think I have to agree that the Blood Angels might just get it overall but there’s not much in it. In addition to the stuff darkhorse0607 says, the death of Sanguinius triggers the black rage in the Blood Angels which reaps a pretty epic toll of the traitors during the emperors duel with Horus. 
 

However, I really don’t think there’s much in it and none of them could’ve done what they did without the support of the other legions, especially during the siege.

[Noserenda]

I don't think either side really has a main legion really, both the legions SGS are focused on sat out a big chunk of the age of darkness in the main, and a bunch of others missed the opening, the siege, or both maybe. Mostly because the nature of a novel series/setting with nearly two dozen major factions set across a whole galaxy makes it impractical :D

[Karhedron]

I would say there is a good case to be made for the White Scars. They were the only loyalist Legion operating across the Galaxy for pretty much the whole Heresy. The constantly harried the traitors and slowed down their advance on Terra for 4 years (according to Path of Heaven).

 

The shattered Legions struggled to be more than a nuisance after Istvaan V. The UMs, DAs and BAs were sidelined by the Ruinstorm. The IFs were busy fortifying Terra and the Wolves were occupied burning Prospero and then trying to get Horus.

 

The Scars fought the Traitors all the way to Terra and eventually arrived at the Palace still with a sizeable fighting force. 

[Razorblade]

Blood Angels definitely. 

They're present in almost every major theater of the war after Isstvaan (Ultramar, Molech, Terra) and perhaps more importantly Sanguinius death at the Hands of Horus is the event that really marks the latter's complete fall to chaos.

[TheArtilleryman]

Some great responses so far.

 

One of the things that was definitely done well with the whole narrative is giving most of the legions a really significant part to play. All the “lesser” legions got a strong “fleshing out” of their story and I agree that the question is hard to answer. The Scars in particular, got a huge boost to their rep from the HH series, having previously been one of the “other” legions, and now I think being lifted higher in the collective consciousness as a result. I kinda feel sorry for the Salamanders and Iron Hands as they seem to have come off the worst. The Raven Guard seem to get back into it more than the other shattered legions after Istvaan.

I will admit that the Blood Angels are the legion I’ve read the least about, as I am still working my way through all the books and they don’t really come into the narrative until much later on. 20 or so books in, and another couple from later on, and they have barely appeared. This may be have influenced my perception of their impact.

 

Traitor-wise, I think it’s easier to find an answer. of course the Sons of Horus have massive impact but I would be tempted to argue that the Word Bearers could make a case for being the most significant traitor legion. Without them, it’s likely there would have been no heresy at all.

[MARK0SIAN]

Traitor wise I would also go for the Word Bearers but in second place I’d put the Thousand Sons, even though they weren’t technically traitors when they had their main impact.

 

If it weren’t for Magnus breaching the Webway then the Emperor wouldn’t have been confined to the Golden throne and could’ve taken a much more active role in the heresy and especially in the siege. It would also have meant that the Custodes would have still been at close to their full strength during the siege instead of being a fraction of their former might which would’ve had a fairly significant impact on the battle.

Edited July 15 by MARK0SIAN

[No Foes Remain]

For the Traitors the Sons of Horus would be up there, Horus sent out his own to command task forces made up of other legions and mortal troops. Additionally I'd say the Death Guard and Iron Warriors did a lot of heavy lifting as well, alongside the Word Bearers. That's not to say the others didn't do anything, but those were the most prominant because they were dependable (or committed in the WB case).

 

For the loyalist I'll agree with a few others in that the Scars should be up there, I'd also put the vote for the Shattered Legions as well. It's more because they were constantly where the traitors wanted to be, or where the traitors didn't want them to be in Meduson's case, as the other legions were basically trapped and just couldn't get out of their sights so stood and fought and caused trouble where they could.

  The Fists were at Terra bar a third who were stuck at Phall, the Blood Angels were at Signus, Ultramarines at Calth (bar 50k or so scattered on deployments elsewhere), Scars were at Chondax but after breaking out they proved to be so much of a pain that the Death Guard and a large portion of the Emperor's Children were sent to deal with them. The Dark Angels were far away at Thramas and got tied down with the Night Lords before getting roped in with the Secundus, with Corswain trying to deal with the traitors and Typhus. And the Wolves were badly mauled at Prospero then crippled even further by the Alpha Legion.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Realistically the scars contributed a ton. Full strength Legion-level harassment to delay the traitor forces, participated in Beta Garmon, and held the line at the siege. 

 

This isn't to say that the fists didn't fortify the segmentum solar and terra (and do some embarrassment at Phall). Or that the BAs didn't do a lot of fighting throughout either. But, it feels like the scars are the most proactive of the legion forces in their contributions. 

[No Foes Remain]

5 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Realistically the scars contributed a ton. Full strength Legion-level harassment to delay the traitor forces, participated in Beta Garmon, and held the line at the siege. 

 

This isn't to say that the fists didn't fortify the segmentum solar and terra (and do some embarrassment at Phall). Or that the BAs didn't do a lot of fighting throughout either. But, it feels like the scars are the most proactive of the legion forces in their contributions. 

I think that is a really good term to use, all loyalist legions were active but as you say the Scars where the only ones who were really proactive as a whole opposed to parts.

[Noserenda]

The Space wolves were really proactive, which is why they got reduced to body parts :D 

[Razorblade]

I think there is a very significant difference between importance as in background machinations/impact on the eventual outcome of events/pure military strength, as opposed to importance as in face of the faction/narrative symbolism/presence in relevant theaters. 

Going after the first definition WBs are most definitely the most important Traitor Legion and there is really no clear answer on the Loyalists part (I'd go with the Dark Angels, as one of the largest Legions, present allover the galaxy, have the Loyalists best Commander and are the only ones who manage to strike a blow comparable to Isstvaan to traitors).

That said I don't think this is the right definition to go with. The Sons of Horus are most definitely the face of the Rebellio and at the heart of the narrative for the traitors. It's not as clear cut on the other side but the Blood Angels are the closest Imo.

[Valkyrion]

The Alpha Legion, obviously. 

[TheArtilleryman]

21 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

The Alpha Legion, obviously. 

Or were they? 

[lost_angel]

Wasn’t dorn given overall command of the loyalist forces following the betrayal? While I appreciate we’re talking about a primarch here and not the legion per se I’d argue that fists take this one by default on the loyalist side

[MARK0SIAN]

2 hours ago, lost_angel said:

Wasn’t dorn given overall command of the loyalist forces following the betrayal? While I appreciate we’re talking about a primarch here and not the legion per se I’d argue that fists take this one by default on the loyalist side

I think you’ve got a good argument that he’s the most important Primarch, probably between him and Sanguinius but not necessarily the most important/influential legion. Plus although he was in charge he didn’t really have much direct control over the other legions for most of the war as they were effectively cut off. Plus the individual loyalist Primarchs didn’t seem bound to defer to him as Russ ran off to find Horus and even the Khan launched his attack on Lion’s gate against Dorn’s better judgement.

[sonsoftaurus]

I’d maybe argue that the loyalist elements of the traitor legions were the most important. If they had all just followed their primarchs…

[Xenith]

I think you have to split the heresy into two parts - the build up and the siege of Terra.

 

In the build up, the legions that Horus Thought were the most dangerous to the plan were the UM and the BA (and the Thousand Sons), which is why he was resolved to shatter them. These were the most important pieces on the loyalist side and they had to be removed from the board as soon as possible. I'd argue that Sanguinius was the only thing that Horus was scared of (though he should have been scared of magnus), until Molech. The Scars they sent away, thinking that the Khan would join Horus after it was all over, possibly the same for the Lion. 

 

I recall that the BA/The Herald were instrumental in fighting free of the Ruinstorm, and then played a critical role in the Siege - undoubtedly, the fists played the biggest role, however throughout the books, the remark is made that just as Dorn is fortifying the walls, Sanguinius is fortifying the spirits of the defenders, keeping them in the fight ("I don't want to be here"). The Fists largely fell back to Terra and didn't pay too big a role in the heresy at large.

 

At the siege, the Fists were probably the most important, followed closely by the BA, as Legions, however Specific Primarch actions are separate to legions, and the actions of Jaghati, Sangunius and Dorn were all key surviving as long as they did. 

 

So my answer is:

Heresy as a whole - The Blood Angels

At the siege - The Fists

 

I think it's easier to say the least important legions in the heresy, but lumping primarch+legion together, I'd rank them as follows:

1. Blood Angels ~100k legionaries to terra, manned the walls, biggest threat to Horus, killed angron
2. Fists - manned the walls, held at the siege, killed alpaharius
3. Ultramarines - largest legion and biggest threat, the relief force that forced Horus Hand
4. White Scars - retook lons gate, killed morty
5. Sallies - shattered, Vulkan played a role
6. Dark Angels - distracted by curze for years, held large force at Caliban, went off on their own
7. RG - shattered
8. Hands - ran ahead and died4.
9. SWolves - Duped by horus into removing the Loyalists strongest piece

[Brother Kraskor]

On 7/16/2024 at 10:15 AM, Valkyrion said:

The Alpha Legion, obviously. 

 

Yes!  I mean genuinely arguably the case right, in terms of wider impact on the direction of the conflict?

 

Separately, I know the post is about Loyalists, but there has been some discussion of Traitors too, so as an EC player I will happily admit that the Emperor's Children probably come dead last in terms of impact on the Heresy. They really do just mess around, kill a few guys, and then piss off home. Although, arguably Fulgrim was the only primarch (or at least one of very few) to achieve their personal goals.

[Razorblade]

On 7/17/2024 at 5:40 PM, lost_angel said:

Wasn’t dorn given overall command of the loyalist forces following the betrayal? While I appreciate we’re talking about a primarch here and not the legion per se I’d argue that fists take this one by default on the loyalist side

He's a distant fifth at best. 

First is very obviously Sanguinius, followed by the Lion and the Wolf (the Loyalists best Fighters, most successful commanders, the only people who manage to shatter Traitor legions) and fourth has to be guilliman simply because of the ridiculous resources at his disposal. Dorn doesn't really do anything until the solar war and even then I think Valdor would have done his Job alright.

[Lord Marshal]

3 hours ago, Razorblade said:

He's a distant fifth at best. 

First is very obviously Sanguinius, followed by the Lion and the Wolf (the Loyalists best Fighters, most successful commanders, the only people who manage to shatter Traitor legions) and fourth has to be guilliman simply because of the ridiculous resources at his disposal. Dorn doesn't really do anything until the solar war and even then I think Valdor would have done his Job alright.

 

Johnny spent a good chunk of the Heresy being led on by the Night Lords. They kicked their teeth in at Thramas, but they ultimately did their job of keeping them away from the fighting for a good while and reduced them to playing catch-up when tagging along with Guilliman. If the Dark Angels had been able to commit to open battle they'd probably have dished out a lot more hurt conventionally than the Night Lords would doing the same, so in that respect Curze really punched up by leading him on a merry chase. 

 

I'd put Dorn well ahead of him, just because Beta-Garmon, Sol and Terra are what Horus' forces crash against and without him building up the defence, the Heresy could have gone very differently. Johnny chasing his tail by the Traitor's design for so much of it knocks him down a lot of places imo. Sure Johnny blew up the Traitor Homeworlds, but those were mostly token garrisons the Traitors didn't seem to put much stock in. On paper the Dark Angels have a lot of cool toys and a lot of cool dudes heading them up, but don't spend much time committing them because they're trying to catch up to the rest of the war.

 

Russ I'd put down at the bottom, just because he's the one Loyalist Primarch who probably did more good for the Traitors than his own team. The Space Wolves were bloodied so badly at Prospero they were pretty much irrelevant throughout the Heresy, plus their destruction of the Thousand Sons is what drove their remnants into the Traitor's hands anyway. Then Russ flubs his desperate shot at Horus and removes what was left of his Legion almost entirely from the war, rather than affording Terra more defenders.

 

Edited July 19 by Lord Marshal

[Xenith]

Agree with all the above.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Marshal said:

Johnny spent a good chunk of the Heresy being led on by the Night Lords. They kicked their teeth in at Thramas, but they ultimately did their job of keeping them away from the fighting for a good while 

 

I'd put Dorn well ahead of him, just because Beta-Garmon, Sol and Terra are what Horus' forces crash against

 

Curze distracted the Lion and the Dark Angels for what was it, 4 years?, and kept him out of the fight (or perhaps the lion was happy to flit around the edges and maintain his strength), while Dorn's managed to delay off 9 traitor legions for probably what, 18-24 months in total through garmon, sol and terra?

 

Russ is dead last and became the rabid dog he accused Angron of being. Imagine if Russ had remained on Terra, as requested, and assaulted Lions Gate with the Khan? Very different result. probably with both Primarchs returning alive. 

[Razorblade]

The Traitors are so afraid of Johnson that they sacrifice an entire legion to delay him a bit doesn't really refute my point, does it? 

Same story for Russ, he's the one you send to kill primarchs and its vital for the traitors to get him out of the war. They also do everything in their power to keep Sanguinius and Guilliman away from the action. 

Dorn just sits behind his wall and does absolutely nothing to proactively counter the traitors plans. Anyone can sit at a strongpoint and just throw ressources at the enemy. You don't need a primarch for that. In fact I'd argue that his underling pollux is more important to the loyalist side than Dorn himself.

[Xenith]

2 hours ago, Razorblade said:

Anyone can sit at a strongpoint and just throw ressources at the enemy. You don't need a primarch for that. In fact I'd argue that his underling pollux is more important to the loyalist side than Dorn himself.

 

That your opinion is that he 'just threw resources at the enemy' suggests you shoud have a read of the SoT series. That's precisely what Dorn did not do, instead using the precise amount and application of manpower to slow Horus and gain days to reinforce terra. The books go into a lot of detail about exactly how Dorn managed the war, how he was orchestrating the fighting of a thousand different battles simultaneously for months on end withour break, and in an unwinnable situation. I'd argue that Dorn was more important than the fists, however Archamus, other subcommanders etc proved invaluable in slowing traitors.

 

2 hours ago, Razorblade said:

The Traitors are so afraid of Johnson that they sacrifice an entire legion to delay him a bit doesn't really refute my point, does it? 

 

The question was which was the most important legion in the heresy - and as the DA did little, we can't claim it was them. I agree that they were a big threat and needed to be removed, however Horus eveidently believed that Johnson could be turned, and the fact that Horus went for total annihilation of the SW, TS, UM and BA, means they were all ranked as higher threats than the DA. By choosing to get bogged down in a protracted game of cat and mouse, with the master of cat and mouse, the Lion greatly hampered the loyalist efforts, and effectively removed the DA from th heresy. We can argue the Leigon under Corswain had a great, and pivotal role to play, however this was maybe 10% of the legion overall, and directly disobeying the lions orders as I recall.