Which was/were the most important loyalist legion(s) in the Horus Heresy?

[Valkyrion]

The Space Wolves royally screwed the pooch throughout most of the heresy - failing to kill Horus instead of reinforcing Terra, failing to destroy the Thousand Sons when ordered to by Horus, listening to Horus instead of the Emperor, disobeying the Emperor's orders to bring Magnus to heel, sending Magnus and the Thousand Sons to the traitors cause, keeping either daemons, xenos or mutants as pets, ignoring Nikaea on a nonsensical technicality, being sent to keep an eye on the remaining loyalist primarchs only to have a company turn traitor....they are the worst of the loyalists by miles, getting by with specious reasoning to support their hypocritical ideals. 

 

I think the Imperial Fists are the face of the Loyalists. Dorn killed one primarch, his defence was so good he forced another to withdraw, and sent a third packing on the battlefield. 

Plus - Imperial. Imperium. Empire. Emperor. It's pretty much in the name. 

 

[Razorblade]

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

That your opinion is that he 'just threw resources at the enemy' suggests you shoud have a read of the SoT series. That's precisely what Dorn did not do, instead using the precise amount and application of manpower to slow Horus and gain days to reinforce terra. The books go into a lot of detail about exactly how Dorn managed the war, how he was orchestrating the fighting of a thousand different battles simultaneously for months on end withour break, and in an unwinnable situation. I'd argue that Dorn was more important than the fists, however Archamus, other subcommanders etc proved invaluable in slowing traitors.

He manages a bad situation well but with Valdor, Sanguinius, Khan, Malcador and the Fists very capable Captains all present on and around Terra they don't have a shortage of commanders decent enough to manage a defensive siege. Dorn does nothing to significantly disrupt the Traitors plans (stuff like the saturnine ambush doesn't really change the grand scale of things) and in an absolute best case scenario (He has two extra Legions the Traitors didn't account for at terra and reinforcements coming in much quicker than expected) he still gets big E killed on his watch. Ferrus does more to hurt the traitor effort by simply not flipping.

 

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

The question was which was the most important legion in the heresy - and as the DA did little, we can't claim it was them. I agree that they were a big threat and needed to be removed, however Horus eveidently believed that Johnson could be turned, and the fact that Horus went for total annihilation of the SW, TS, UM and BA, means they were all ranked as higher threats than the DA. By choosing to get bogged down in a protracted game of cat and mouse, with the master of cat and mouse, the Lion greatly hampered the loyalist efforts, and effectively removed the DA from th heresy. We can argue the Leigon under Corswain had a great, and pivotal role to play, however this was maybe 10% of the legion overall, and directly disobeying the lions orders as I recall. 

That depends on your definition of importance, if it's about how influential their actions are in the way the events play out I agree, the Dark Angels and Ultramarine don't really do all that much* and the wolves likely end up doing more harm than good. 

However I think it's more interesting to look at how important they are to their sides overall strength/how important it is for the traitors not to fight them/how much damage they could do in the right place at the right time. 

If Horus isn't juiced up on Molech, Russ ends the Heresy before it ever reaches Terra. If the Ultramarines are destroyed at Calth and the Dark Angels don't destroy the Night Lords, the Loyalists just flat out loose, no matter what they do.

The Blood Angels are easily the most important with either definition because the traitors want to fight them under no circumstances *and* they actually manage to disrupt their plans and show up at Terra on time. 

*I'd still argue they're more important than Dorn and the Fists because they actually do something the traitors didn't plan for

[Noserenda]

If you think Russ did nothing but screw up during the heresy you probably need to check it over again :)

1. "He drove a loyal legion to the enemy" On the surface sure, but not really. Magnus sold the Ksons to Tzeentch years before the heresy was a twinkle in Lorgars eye. If you think they would have ever ended the heresy on the anathemas side you dont understand the changer of ways, lord of treachery, very well.

Sure, what went down on Prospero was undoubtedly tragic, but in some alternative reality where Russ showed restraint i think we almost certainly have a much bigger tragedy when the Ksons change sides at some decisive moment, the main difference being whether they do it willingly or as a legion of gribbly flesh monsters with the odd sorcerer, or worst of all some kind of monumental warp portal/overlap from exploding that many psykers all in one place. Grim.

2. "Failing to Kill Horus" I dont think ultimately killing Horus was the actual point of that attack (I mean it was Russ' plan yes) the entire point is the chink in Horus' mental armour/control the Spear of Russ opened up. He may have been playing it up for camouflage but i think its pretty clear in the text that it hindered Horus and the invasion to a significant degree overall. Possibly enough to squeak the win? Noone will ever know for sure. 

Plus its not a small thing that the Wolves got to stab Horus. The knock to the confidence and the losses amongst the Sons of Horus' elite cadres arent nothing. Maybe the Saturnine gambit worked in a time this never happened?

3. Just getting out there, killing Traitors, disrupting their plans and pulling more of them away from Terra to kill the Wolves, in combination with the above factors was probably more useful during the siege than the actual wolves being there overall, lets face it, Russ and his mob probably would not have been playing particularly well with Dorn, especially not with Sanguinius and even the Khan has some problems there. Its probably the worst set of Loyalists for the Wolves to fight with. Buggering off was probably the best actual choice.

Sure the watch packs were dumb, but they were also utterly minimal numbers of troops.


So yeah. I still think trying to rank the legions is silly (But a classic forum timewaster :D )  but some real shaky assumptions out there. Especially with the poor neglected Iron hands to accurately pick on! 

[darkhorse0607]

While I'm late on the reply (moving is a pain)

 

Circling back to the "Horus was nervous enough about the Dark Angels he sent a whole legion to delay them"

 

He sent the Night Lords. I'm a fan of our Midnight Clad friends as much as the next person who likes Midnight Clad space marines, but it wasn't exactly the same thing as sending the Wolves to stop the Thousand Sons or the Word Bearers to Calth

 

He sent a legion that he knew would probably be crushed in an open conflict with the Dark Angels, and at the bare minimum drastically reduced from the engagements they'd have outside of the main conflicts of the campaign

 

I'm not disputing that Horus considered the Dark Angels a threat, I just feel like he assumed the Calibanite faction of the legion that was working with Typhon would end up leading to the downfall of the Dark Angels after the Heresy was finished. Otherwise he would've sent a legion with more stopping power

[DuskRaider]

I’d have to say that making the Imperial Fists the poster boys for Heresy-Era Loyalists actually makes more sense than one would think. They took part in a decent amount of major events during the Heresy. They were present at the end of the Isstvan V Massacre and engaged in a massive space battle against the Iron Warriors. They were present on Mars during the Civil War and played a pivotal role in securing the plans for Mk. VI and Mk. VII armor for the Loyalists. They played a huge role during the Beta Garmon campaign, easily their largest contribution pre-Siege of Terra. They helped garrison the Sol System , participated in the Battle of Phall, and countless other events. 
 

Everyone looks to the Blood Angels as the quintessential Loyalist Legion during the Heresy due to the sacrifice of Sanguinius and their role on Terra, but I would argue that if it weren’t for the VIIth and Rogal Dorn, the Imperium would have fallen pretty quickly. 

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

I’d have to say that making the Imperial Fists the poster boys for Heresy-Era Loyalists actually makes more sense than one would think.

 

Plus Dorn currently holds the record for taking down traitor Primarchs.

[TheArtilleryman]

47 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Plus Dorn currently holds the record for taking down traitor Primarchs.

We need a flex emoji 

[Noserenda]

The Imperium losing if not for the fists is a pretty redundant argument, i dont think any of the Legions could be left out and have the Imperium win.

[DuskRaider]

6 hours ago, Noserenda said:

The Imperium losing if not for the fists is a pretty redundant argument, i dont think any of the Legions could be left out and have the Imperium win.

Three of the Loyalist Legions were broken, one had their system ravaged by the Word Bearers and World Eaters, another was pre-occupied for most the Heresy dealing with the Night Lords, the Scars sat on the fence for a good amount of time. The Blood Angels had their own thing going on between Signus and then getting stuck in the Ultramar System engaging in Guilliman’s attempt at a second Imperium. I’d say the Fists had an extremely active and vital role in the outcome of the war, more so than the others. 

[calgar101]

The Imperial Fists were active in every phase of the Heresy and fought against the traitor forces in several war zones. Dorn was organising the defence of Terra and wider Imperium, whilst planning contingencies to evacuate the Emperor.

 

I'm certain moments of the Heresy, certain loyalist legions may temporarily outshine the Imperial Fists and Dorn but over all I think it's pretty fair to say, they are the 'poster boys'. 

 

If you want to diminish Dorns overseeing of the siege and say any of his subordinate commanders could have done his job, I think you are missing the point and not understanding how taxing it would be. I'm not going to quote passages and it's been a while since reading the Siege series but I'm pretty sure, Archamus's PoV, goes into some detail on just how extraordinary Dorn is coping.

 

As for Leman Russ and his attempt to kill Horus, I can understand it a little bit but I think strategically he would have been better off with his forces on Terra. You can argue, he'd have been a nightmare to work with there but 1) the Khan who is equally as 'problematic ' copes very well, 2) he would respect Sanguinius and Dorn, the latter being appointed by the Emperor as Praetorian. But ultimately this is a moot argument. 

[b1soul]

 

I would say there is a good case to be made for the White Scars. They were the only loyalist Legion operating across the Galaxy for pretty much the whole Heresy. The constantly harried the traitors and slowed down their advance on Terra for 4 years (according to Path of Heaven).

 

The shattered Legions struggled to be more than a nuisance after Istvaan V. The UMs, DAs and BAs were sidelined by the Ruinstorm. The IFs were busy fortifying Terra and the Wolves were occupied burning Prospero and then trying to get Horus.

 

The Scars fought the Traitors all the way to Terra and eventually arrived at the Palace still with a sizeable fighting force. 

 

Right, though I don't think there is a "superstar main character" legion on the loyalist side, I would actually give "most valuable legion" to Dorn and IF, then Khan and WS as close runner-up...with Sang and BA coming in a more distant third runner-up for being on Terra. 

 

Obviously the three legions of the Siege were all critical, but the WS were truly unsung heroes even before then. You could have a novel or two on the four year period when the WS at nigh legion-strength were delaying the advances of the EC, DG, IW and even SoH simultaneously, with heavy losses to the WS, of course, but still managing to reach Terra with maybe 50～60% of the legion intact (not bad considering the duration and level of opposition), and preventing the fall of Terra and banishing a Chaos primarch in the process: no two legions alone could hold off the Traitors for that long and having a third was critical.

[calgar101]

The White Scars and their Primarch are definitely unsung heroes no matter how you look at it. They made the traitors bleed heavy for their advances. 

[Astartes Consul]

The real and only correct answer is the Alpha Legion.