Nostalgia is not what it used to be

[The Neverborn]

I'm having issues motivating myself in buying into 10th: despite knowing almost nothing about it, owning two 4000 point plus armies, 25 years in the hobby and a general like of the hobby.

 

I find myself thinking back to 2nd through to about 5th maybe 6th edition and remembering how much fun I had during those times. 

 

I've noticed since that time each edition the game seem to moves away from what I enjoyed and I find myself becoming more frustrated with the game and dynamics around it.

 

• I miss being able to get a "good game" into 90 minutes from laying the battle mat to handshake. I found that in the last 2 editions I played it took nearly half that time just deploying, setting the mission parameters, doing pre-game moves and the 1st turn still hasn't started yet.
• I miss being able to, from memory, know the stat line of 75% plus of units and war gear in the game. I find myself in each and every game being caught out multiple times because I didn't know that a unit when given a specific upgrade from "this book" had a special ability that break the normal laws of the game or doing something unusual  under "these circumstances" if it spends "this resource". 
• I miss the time before every player i played had a good understanding of the "current meta" and I feel I have a choice if attempting to work to that meta or accepting the game will be competitively over by by second turn and i may not even get a 3rd.
• I miss armies that I could carry around in a 24x16x6" case plus codex, rulebook and dice, rather than the nearly 3 foot collection of boxes, magnets and cases I have now and require to be balanced like a jigsaw in my car.
• I miss the time of only needing a small from factor rule book and flimsy paper codex over the 2,3,4 kilos of reading material I needed to carry around recently. 
• I miss the simplicity in understanding of what i needed to do by the end of the mission, rather than collection of dials, apps and counters i have installed on my phone or physical copies of.

I'm sure there's loads of you who are having loads of fun and more power to you, I hope i can join you one day soon. 

 

Wondering if there's anyone else like this or if I'm the only one, and if anyone else felt the same but has overcome these thoughts or not as the case maybe.   

Finally apologies as i didn't know where to post this, mods please move if it's incorrect. 

[TheArtilleryman]

I find games difficult nowadays because I don’t have time to learn the rules properly. I find myself having to consult the Rulebook or codex before/after every action I take because I just can’t remember the rules, what with them having changed so many times. I definitely have a perception that the rules of 3rd-7th were much more ingrained in my mind, along with all the stat lines and weapon profiles, as you say. That could be because the rules changed much less each edition than they seem to do more recently, or it could just be because I had more time to learn them properly and got more games in back then so got more used to them. One thing is for sure, there are far too many special rules in 10th, so you’re never just playing one unit’s stats against another, or just rolling to hit/wound/save without a bunch of re-rolls.

 

Either way, I am much more a collector/modeller/painter than a gamer these days.

Edited July 20 by TheArtilleryman

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don’t build armies to be meta but other than a hard skew list I’ve never been uncompetitive by the second turn…maybe best by 4th turn.

[Scribe]

42 minutes ago, The Neverborn said:

Wondering if there's anyone else like this or if I'm the only one, and if anyone else felt the same but has overcome these thoughts or not as the case maybe.   

 

You aren't alone. Many of us have been dissatisfied with the direction for multiple editions.

[Rhavien]

39 minutes ago, The Neverborn said:

Text 

You wrote, you are here since 2nd. That means you are getting old like everyone who are here since 2nd. Relax. It's been 30 years. 

[Karhedron]

It is just time.  I have been playing since 1st edition and I had similar problems, particularly with 9th edition.  Covid meant I did not get to play 9th much and found it hard to get into, particularly the reams of stratagems. 

 

I have played more games of 10th in the last year than I did games of 9th in the entire edition. I have found that the familiarity I had with earlier editions has come back with practice for 10th. One thing I have found good is playing 1000 point Incursion games. They are quicker to set up and play. They really help getting back into a new edition. 

 

Once you get the hang of it, the fun will come back (or at least, it did for me).

[The Neverborn]

57 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

You wrote, you are here since 2nd. That means you are getting old like everyone who are here since 2nd. Relax. It's been 30 years. 

 

I'm glad you're enjoying the game, or I assume you are based on your dismissal of the original post. I do feel I covered this in the original post.  I hope to be sharing your enjoyment soon.  

 

46 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

It is just time.  I have been playing since 1st edition and I had similar problems, particularly with 9th edition.  Covid meant I did not get to play 9th much and found it hard to get into, particularly the reams of stratagems. 

 

I have played more games of 10th in the last year than I did games of 9th in the entire edition. I have found that the familiarity I had with earlier editions has come back with practice for 10th. One thing I have found good is playing 1000 point Incursion games. They are quicker to set up and play. They really help getting back into a new edition. 

 

Once you get the hang of it, the fun will come back (or at least, it did for me).

 

Hopefully this is the case or at least with some of the issues I'm having at this point. 

 

Edit, I'm actually thinking for picking Warhammer Old World. I apricate there's sort of two "tribes" those that want a dynamically changing hobby, so it's doesn't become stale and there's always a new shiny model to buy paint play. And those that are in the other tribe who want to buy an army for X hundred bucks then use it for 5, 10, 15 years. Of course very few people will lean entirely into one tribe, myself included. 

 

Anyone have any experience with old world?   

 

Edited July 20 by The Neverborn

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm also one of those old RT players, the changes to the core rules and Legends introduction killed the main game for me. Killed it dead.

I enjoy games with templates, facings, TLoS, and other quirky rules, not the 2D math Hammer of today.

My nostalgia is all for the 3rd -5th Ed Apocalypse era.

[Cleon]

I think Old World specifics are outside the realms of this forum, but as a comparison to where 40K and HH are, we've found having an 'in print' ruleset has helped focus peoples interest - for WFB same as 40k when you are looking at 'Oldhammer' it's hard to get universal agreement of what the ruleset worth going back to is - is it rogue trader/2nd ed is it 3rd ed with the trial assault rules, is it 5th with the extra missions book?

 

This is where the flaws in the HH ruleset really hurt for me - Reactions ruin what would otherwise be a polished version of that 3rd to 7th game engine, but already we're into the house rule conversations because it just doesn't work for us out of the box.

[Cenobite Terminator]

Try to give it a chance. The dataslates are quite helpful.

Edited July 20 by Cenobite Terminator
Spelling error

[The Yncarne]

I’ve been in the same boat. I use my collection in a different game. It’s not as rules heavy but the game plays in 90 minutes give or take. 
 

I do have quite a large collection. Don’t feel the need to buy more ATM. Don’t see myself coming back to 40k with all the stuff the game encourages. 

 

I’m not fond of having kill team be a vehicle for unit updates. Kind of miss the big waves where the entire army/faction had most of its units upgraded over 3-4 months. 
 

happy to see people still enjoy the hobby whether it’s playing the game, modeling/painting or lore. 

[Doghouse]

Take a break from the game and look at something else for a bit. I'm exploring other game at the moment and finding for the first time in years I am finishing models and enjoying painting again. 40k isn't going anywhere and will still be there when you decide to return to it.

 

I'm playing This Quar's War at the moment because I am in the same boat as you and the feeling of freedom I get from a sandbox game is pretty much how I felt when I first started the hobby forty odd years ago with Rogue Trader which scratches that nostalgia itch for me. I'm even making my own game for fun and looking at miniatures that I wouldn't dream of before purely because I have been brainwashed into the 'they're not official' mindset. There are tons of other game systems that are small and far cheaper that will potentially do that for you.

 

I think the main problem is people tend to be blinded by GW's interpretation of 'the hobby' being the one true way to participate when in reality there is so many choices outside their domain.

[Remain_Indoors]

My main old man gripe is editions being so short now, and the current trend of throwing out everything and starting from scratch. Just as I’ve gotten the hang of an edition, a new one is out or worse they’ve completely revamped the game again. 2nd and 3rd I knew like the back of my hand because I had time to learn and retain it all. Pretty sure I could play a game of either still without referencing anything. 

[spiros14]

I get what you're saying, but I don't really agree with it.

I have not been playing 40k as long as yourself, only since 5th edition, but there are things from that area that I do miss. Namely the campaigns and narratives produced between 5th and 7th. I loved reading the articles on the battle of rynns world campaign, and Sanctus Reach, and one of the first campaigns that I organised with my friends was Forge World's Badab War campaign. The battle reports White Dwarf printed had little lore snippets, such as when they had that huge apocalypse game that took place of several tables, the players of which all had little secret objectives they had to carry out.

It's something we don't really see as well executed with 9th edition campaigns onwards. Most act as almost a rules supplement for armies, the campaign mechanics can be rather difficult to work with depending on player count, and it's all part of some big warzone plotline that just segregates the armies further than they need to be. 

But it's viewed through rose-tinted glasses. The mechanics of 8th onwards have been so better streamlined, and games have been much closer. All armies have some sort of support now. I recall trying to start the Shield of Baal Cryptus Campaign back in 6th (I'm a huge Blood Angels fan) but couldn't because no one wanted to play Tyranids because they were criminally unsupported. The concept of going back to that ruleset to play something like the Horus Heresy turns me right off of the system. No one new how to paint well during that period, and I still cringe at mine and my friends models with thick paint layers added on.

 

TL;DR there's nothing wrong with nostalgia, but you have to try and see the faults of the time as well as the upsides to avoid going full grognard.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

You have become a grognard like a lot of folks here myself included. Pick-up games with strangers in cramped environments are not your cup of tea. You either have an adult friend who is still in the hobby to game with or you don´t. I am in the latter group which is why I am doing solo games for years now.

 

Modern 40K targets a young audience who are fine with sloppy rules (40K is as popular as ever) which will be irrelevant in two months when a new digital update comes around. They have been brainwashed to relearn the game on a regular basis (new edition cycle) and they apparently like it this way. We older folks prefer a more stable set of rules which takes us back to Oldhammer. So enjoy your favourite edition of old and don´t touch anything rules related from modern 40K with a ten-yard pole.  

[Redcomet]

Every time there is a new edition, a portion of ye older gamers decry that everything was better 20 years ago. 
 

I have been playing since 2nd and can confirm that every single edition had its problems.

 

But people who rely heavily on nostalgia tend to see everything through that lens.

[The Neverborn]

I'd agree with those of you that point out that very much so in early editions there were problems with the game system

 

I remember 

• When the Eldar codex alone had maybe a dozen models with no kits,  Wave Serpent, Farseer/Warlock on Jetbike, Shadow Weaver
• Seeing armies wait nearly a decade for a "in current rule system update"
• Bizarre interactions when using a 4th edition codex in a 5th maybe 6th edition ruleset
• You could only deploy a land raider sideways from reserve
• Power Weapons treated terminator armour the same as flack armour
• Strom shields required you to remember which model they were blocking
• Tanks flip/flopped from  being functional Bunkers  
• If 1mm of your Wraithknight base was in cover the whole model was 
• Almost every army was functionally fearless 
• A Greater Deamon was maybe 50% bigger than a space marine hero.

I have no illusions that the game is better in many ways than it was at other times especially models.

 

Doesn't stop me missing some what I enjoyed.

And I like the term "grognard" and i'm going to learn to use it more. 

[DuskRaider]

40K peaked rules-wise about 20 years ago and has been in a downward spiral ever since. I don’t necessarily say this with rose colored lenses since I feel the same about HHv1 and that was pretty close to the ruleset of 4th / 5th / 6th, though 5th had issues with GW going overboard on streamlining the armies and 6th was a mess with ridiculous Formations. 
 

40K also peaked popularity-wise and becoming a part of the mainstream zeitgeist only in the past 5 years or so. Their marketing has stepped up quite a bit, as did their eagerness to collaborate with other companies. This coincided with 8th Edition, which IMO was the start of a horrible basic rule set offset with a decent codex format (actually having options and variety was quite nice). The current edition is just… bad. 
 

If I could go back to 4th Edition or HHv1 I would in a heartbeat. I loved the rules, I loved the strategy and I loved the sometimes random results of things like scatter templates, the AV damage chart, and deep strike scatter. It made you think more about your next move and the possible consequences of your decisions. 

[Marshal Rohr]

3rd/4th were the Golden Age. 40K went terminal with the 8th Edition changes. It won’t recover. Thank god specialist games is releasing models or everything would be AoS trash and Desolators.  

[phandaal]

4 hours ago, Doghouse said:

Take a break from the game and look at something else for a bit. I'm exploring other game at the moment and finding for the first time in years I am finishing models and enjoying painting again. 40k isn't going anywhere and will still be there when you decide to return to it.

 

100% this. We can still enjoy the entire hobby without using modern GW rules to put models on the table. The struggle to find people who want to game without Current Edition rules is real, but once you do find them, the sky is the limit.

 

Personally, I just wrapped up 100+ models in a fantasy army after hitting my goals with the Space Dwarves, and just started another army.

 

Then on the gaming side I still get in just as much, only now we are not allowing ourselves to be led around by the nose by a live service game-style patch cadence. I can bring armies to the table that function the same today as they did three months ago. Imagine that! 

 

So yeah. If the current state of GW bothers you, just drop their current rules. It is wild how much better that makes the whole experience, but believe me it does make a world of difference.

[Timberley]

9 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

You have become a grognard like a lot of folks here myself included. Pick-up games with strangers in cramped environments are not your cup of tea. You either have an adult friend who is still in the hobby to game with or you don´t. I am in the latter group which is why I am doing solo games for years now.

 

Modern 40K targets a young audience who are fine with sloppy rules (40K is as popular as ever) which will be irrelevant in two months when a new digital update comes around. They have been brainwashed to relearn the game on a regular basis (new edition cycle) and they apparently like it this way. We older folks prefer a more stable set of rules which takes us back to Oldhammer. So enjoy your favourite edition of old and don´t touch anything rules related from modern 40K with a ten-yard pole.  

I think the timespan does help matters.  The first few editions had a 4-6 year lifespan, and the lack of t'interwebs meant that people didn't get balance passes every few months, so it was a more stable game environment all told.  Some factions thrived, some suffered, but this was where (in my group) players made agreements to keep games fun.  Further, as I've pointed out in the past, there were less units per faction, which made it easier to get to grips with the different factions.  There were normally fewer models on the table, and it felt like each model could turn the tide.  I think this is why I've gone more into Necromunda these days - fewer models, more stable ruleset, and more intricacy for each model on the table.  I started looking at 10E at the start of the edition (I'd just got to grips with 9th) and decided that I couldn't be arsed - the game felt like it wasn't made for me.

[ThePenitentOne]

Not here to invalidate anyone's experience, but out of curiousity- since many have mentioned the increasing number of models as a drawback:

 

Why are you playing 2k points? If you enjoyed the game more when 2k points was an HQ, two ten man troops units, an elite, an FA and Heavy.... Then why not just play 750-1k games?

 

Question for those who remember the older games being better: did you play them with different people then than now- especially did you move from garage-hammer to pick-up games with strangers in stores?

 

And finally, while I know that when people post about lost customization, they are referring specifically to equipment options, and in some cases, odd unit sizes. And I am with you in this- I too lament the loss of these items, as well as choosing psychic powers from a list. So I get it. But I have found that Crusade goes at least some of the distance toward making up for lost customization through Battle Honours- the trick being that you don't just pay points for those, you have to earn them in battle.

 

Most people who have seen my posts over the past four years or so are probably sick of me recommending small-scale, campaign-based Crusade play as the cure-all for people who are disillusioned with the 2k pick-up game. Trouble is, I never remember who I make the recommendation to, so I always throw it out there just in case you haven't tried it and you actually have a group who is willing to try different ways to play the game. 

[Karhedron]

10 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

Not here to invalidate anyone's experience, but out of curiousity- since many have mentioned the increasing number of models as a drawback:

 

I used to play 2000 point games but I find 1500 is normally a full evening game in 10th edition. I agree that this is one issue I don't have a problem with, I just cut the cloth to suit. Even 100 points Incursion missions can be fun and played in under 2 hours if one of us is pushed for time.

[2PlusEasy]

At the end of the day, nostalgia or not, it comes down to what YOU want your hobby experience to be rather then what GW tells you what your hobby experience is supposed to be. When you started in the hobby heavily influences what you're after because it's shaped what you perceive Warhammer (and tabletop wargaming) to be.

 

GW's modern "release and burn" marketing strategy is successfully malicious because it capitalises on the consumer's addiction to dopamine: they psych the consumers up for a release, the consumers spike their dopamine when they get super excited and drop their money on it, then before the product has time to settle GW are psyching the consumers up for the next release and the previous release is forgotten or sits in the cupboard. This is a hyper-successful strategy for millennials and Gen Zs who are addicted to dopamine from constant stimulation via social media. I'd argue that most Warhammer grognards are early millennials / Gen Ys or late Gen X's in their 30s - 50s.

 

Ash from GMG and Alan from Tabletop Minions summarised this really well: GW's business model is interested in maximising their profit from short term buy ins and limited releases rather then accepting a loss to draw the consumer in and then profit off the consumer's long term loyalty. They're essentially targeting the dopamine addicted consumer's money: the cynical grognards are either so deep in the GW drain that they'll spend their money regardless, or they won't be missed. The ironic thing however, is that GW's target audience isn't getting younger from personal observations of people who attend wargaming events and conventions so it seems us grognards are the dopamine addicted spenders.

 

The above explains alot about my dissatisfaction with modern 40k and alot of the points raised by others here: the ridiculously quick updates, reinventing the wheel every 3 years, the release schedule and style, the more expensive entry boxes and the lack of a game identity. It tries to sell itself as a competitive experience, it also tries to sell itself to gamers who want a pseudo-RPG (I dislike the term narrative, because narrative implies linear) experience, but doesn't do either particularly well. It tries to sell itself as a streamlined experience but is definitely NOT a streamlined ruleset. 40k as a modern game, is essentially a dopamine-soaring hype until the next release or game patch. IE it's "twitchhammer:" Warhammer for the Twitch generation.

 

For those who know nothing else, or for those who've seen modern 40k for what it is but have found a way to enjoy it, good on you. Please continue to share your experiences because this hobby needs positive grognards with positive mindsets.

 

But, for those who don't like it: that's also ok. It's ok to play older editions and use 3rd party models. It's ok to make up your own scenarios that aren't balanced but is a characterful experience. It's ok to proxy your models with rulesets such as OnePageRules or Stargrave or Old Necromunda or 40K RPGs that do scratch that hobby experience that you're chasing. Sure the old days weren't perfect, but the flaws of older editions were part of their charm as well as their detriment. It's ok to go against what GW tells us that we want.

 

Rather then calling it nostalgia, it's just recognition of what you want from the hobby. I wanted the experiences I had when I played in the early 2000s, so I play 4th edition with my mates. I'm not disappointed in my decision.

Edited July 23 by 2PlusEasy

[WrathOfTheLion]

I've only been playing since 7E, so I don't have too much experience back before then. However, HH (both 1E and now 2E) have been fun, as they still have old mechanics (templates, AV chart, etc.). Recently, I've especially enjoyed the Siege of Cthonia missions from 2E Horus Heresy, where we've been able to play 1500-2000 pt games in less than two hours (even when it's larger than older editions), after only a couple games getting into it. It's the game system I've enjoyed the most since they moved off the older system with 8E 40k.