AT vs Titandeath

[Valkyrion]

I've never played AT and I've no idea how big a game should be, so which system would be 'better' with these forces, allowing for 3 hours of play;

 

1)

Warlord

2 Reaver

3 Warhound

4 Cerastus

2 Acastus

 

2)

3 Warlord

3 Reaver

Warbringer

 

It works out about 3500 points each in Titandeath, which might be too small and be over in an hour, or it might be an all dayer of AT!

[DuskRaider]

Well let’s see… you actually have a few options for each force as far as Maniples go, but you’re probably not going to field them all at once. 
 

Group #1: at the very least you have the requirements of an Axiom Maniple. You could also field a Ferrox Maniple, as that’s just Reavers and Warhounds. This is all just off the top of my head and I’m sure there’s at least one or two more Maniples that you could legally field with that mix. 
 

Group #2: there’s an Extergimus Maniple with the Warlords alone. You’re close to a Ruptura Maniple, I believe you need one more Warbringer for that. There’s also a start to my favorite, the Corsair Maniple consisting of all Reavers. There are a few Maniples that consist of at least Warlords and Reavers and I believe there’s one or two that have Warlord, Reaver and Warbringer. 
 

The thing to remember is that Titanicus is a LOT more involved than Legions Imperialis… a lot. The rules are a lot more complex, so you don’t want as many models on the table as you would with LI. Each Titan is basically a character in its own way and you need to balance its shields, reactor, keep its Machine Spirit in check and ensure you’re fielding it correctly to get the most out of its armament and take advantage of its strengths depending on the chassis. 
 

I think the MOST I’ve fielded in a game is five Titans, though I know you can exceed this with Warhound Maniples depending on the points (for example, if you field that Extergimus Maniple, your opponent would probably be able to field two Maniples to meet your point cost). Even fielding only five it becomes a balancing act and one wrong move or forgetful turn where you don’t vent plasma or something and everything can come crashing down around you… literally. 
 

Titanicus is an amazing game and probably GW’s best rule set to date. It’s well balanced, extremely narrative and strategic. There are rules for every Titan Legio that helps make them characterful and unique without pushing any one over another. That also reminds me, some Legios have the ability to swap out Maniple Titans for other chassis, such as Krytos and their rule that allows them to substitute Reavers or Warhounds in Maniples for Warlords or Warbringers. 
 

Take a look at the rules. Grab the Compendium book. Grab the Loyalist and Traitor Legio books. Understand that while they both live in the same universe and scale, AT and LI are two completely different beasts and the only thing that they have in common are the shared models. 

[Sherrypie]

In AT, those forces would be between 2000-3000 points. That is a big game, though not hugely so. Experienced players could hash it out in said timeframe, but it would be an all-day affair for newer players. 

 

That said, AT is hands down better as a game for titans, so as explained above, it's worth jumping into. The LI Titandeath is a beer and pretzels mode that will suit you better if what you're looking for is some low-stakes dice rolling with friends and lots of titan models for a couple of hours.

[Valkyrion]

Thank you both. I'm very much in favour of beer and pretzels (or beer and whiskey, as it seems to be here!), but a degree of extra immersion wouldn't go amiss.

 

Any thoughts in easily segueing in movement and weapon destroyed results into TItandeath? 

[apologist]

The tighter rules and tendency for Titans to go KABLOOEY in entertaining, unexpected ways makes Adeptus Titanicus my choice for all-engine war – the rules mean fewer grey areas, so less awkwardness and a better, more fun game feel.

 

Having said that, Legions is undoubtedly faster for handling lots of Titans. Here are my suggestions for tweaking Titans in Legions Imperialis, to make them feel a bit weightier and more interesting:

 

Titans

• Increase all Titan's starting wounds by 2 and amend the following paragraph to Titans in the Combat Phase

Quote

Titans function much the same as other Detachments during the Combat phase, with three notable exceptions: damage, split fire and obstructions (see page 56 for Obstructions).

add the following paragraph immediately following:

 

Quote

Damage
When a Titan is reduced to half its starting Wounds, the controlling player of the firing Detachment rolls 2D6 on the Critical Damage table each time it sustains a wound for the rest of the game. He or she may re-roll the result if the firing Detachment is on First Fire orders. The controlling player of the target Titan applies the result.:
1–3: Motive systems are damaged: The Titan immediately staggers D6" in a random direction. the Titan moves at half speed until repaired.
4–8: A random weapon is disabled. This weapon may not be used until repaired.
9–10: Void shield collapse: The Titan's void shields may no longer be reignited until this damage is repaired.
11: MIU damage: The link between Machine Spirit and crew is damaged, making the Titan sluggish and unresponsive. The Titan's CAF is reduced by 4 until repaired.
12: Plasma Reactor Meltdown: The Titan is immediately Destroyed as described below.
During the End phase, in the Resolve End Phase Effects stage, a Titan model may attempt to repair any Critical Damage after attempting to reignite any collapsed Void Shields. The controlling player rolls a number of D6 equal to the model’s remaining wounds. For each 6+ rolled, one Critical Damage result may be repaired.

 

Amend the Destroying a Titan rules as follows:

Quote

Destroying a Titan

The death of a Titan is a deadly spectacle. When a Titan is destroyed, but before it is removed from the battlefield, it explodes. The Titan immediately staggers 2D6" in a random direction determined by the scatter die before it explodes. On a Hit result, the controlling player may choose the direction. Roll a D6 for each model within 3" of the Titan if the Titan had fewer than 6 starting Wounds, or within 5" of the Titan if the Titan had 6 or more starting Wounds. On a 4+, that model’s Detachment suffers a Hit with an AP value of -1, or -2 if the Titan had a starting Wounds characteristic of 6 or more. Only models within the specified distance of the Titan may be removed as casualties. Once this had been resolved, remove the Titan from the battlefield as normal.

 

 

Quote

Coordinated Fire
When a Titan detachment is firing, after the Choose Targets step, the controlling player selects one weapon that Titan is firing, and resolves the to Hit rolls step and the Resolve Hits step for that weapon. Once resolved, the controlling player then selects another weapon that Titan is firing and repeats this sequence until all weapons have been fired.

 

Amend Void Shields as follows:

Quote

Void Shields (X): Void Shields are energy shields that absorb incoming fire and prevent damage to those equipped with them. A model with the Void Shields (X) special rule has a starting Void Shield level equal to the number shown in brackets. Models with a Void Shield level of 1 or more are said to have active Void Shields. 

When one or more Hits are scored against a model with active Void Shields, Hits are first allocated to the Void Shields. Each time a Hit is allocated to a model’s Void Shields, the controlling player rolls a D6. On a 5+, that model's Void Shield level is not reduced. Otherwise, reduce its Void Shield level by 1 then discard the Hit. Once the Void Shield level reaches 0, the Void Shields collapse and are no longer active. Any remaining Hits are allocated to the model and resolved as normal.

Hits can only be allocated to Void Shields if they were scored by a weapon with a modified AP of -1 or better; Hits scored by weapons with an AP of 0 or worse (after modifiers) against a model with active Void Shields are automatically discarded and do not reduce the model’s Void Shield level.

During the End phase, in the Resolve End Phase Effects stage, a model with the Void Shields (X) special rule may attempt to reignite any collapsed Void Shields. The controlling player rolls a number of D6 equal to the difference between a model’s current Void Shield level and its starting Void Shield level. For each 5+ rolled, increase that model’s Void Shield level by 1.

Edited August 1 by apologist

[Crablezworth]

A simple rule I would have liked to see is titans foregoing firing a weapon to repair wounds or voids early. An allowance of titans on first fire to fire a single weapon in the movement phase would be fun too. 

[Pacific81]

I would put the version of AT/Epic in order of preference as:

 

AT > Epic SM2/NetEpic > every other Epic version (inc. Legions)

 

As Apologist wrote above, part of the fun is the management of the Titans and bits of them blowing off, stumbling with fused knee joints etc. SM2 has a bit of this without going full-detail (as in AT), but with more going on (and I think more fun generally) than the multi-wound weapons platforms they are in Epic Armageddon and Legions.

[Valkyrion]

Just revisiting this on a tangent - how do Titans fight each other without melee weapons? This is a question for both AT and fluff. I tend to skim read titan battles in books, so can't recall (m)any titan melee actions. How does AT handle it? Kick? Headbutt? Some sort of damaging field?

 

[apologist]

In short, they avoid it – but effectively a combination of point-blank fire and barging. The Fanatic studio (later Specialist Games) released a pseudo-update of the original Adeptus Titanicus as a free download, which describes Titan-on-Titan combat as:

 

Titans which are in contact with each other may fight in close combat. [...]the weapon used is a close combat weapon rather than a ranged weapon. The two combatants attempt to smash and crush each other or use specialised close combat weapons to tear, batter and cut at the armour of the enemy. Make no mistake, close combat between Titans is a brutal affair!

 

... and in the absence of dedicated close combat weapons:

 

All Titans have a number of

secondary weapons which blast away at short range, and many simply try to use their size to bash the enemy to the ground. If the Titan does not have a Close Combat weapon, or the weapon is not usable due to Fire Arc restrictions or damage, then the Titan may make a single Improvised attack instead.

 

(My emphasis)

Edited August 9 by apologist

[Xenith]

If you want to play with titans, I'd use the game designed for titans, and not the one with what's basically a mod that lets you play the not-titans game with only titans.

 

The forces are large, I'd try maybe 5 titans each to start with, which is good for a 2hour game, or 3 if you're new - I'd consider:

 

Warlord, 2x reaver, 2x hounds

vs

Warlord, 3x reavers.

 

AT rulebook also caters for unbalanced games like this. 

[DuskRaider]

2 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

Just revisiting this on a tangent - how do Titans fight each other without melee weapons? This is a question for both AT and fluff. I tend to skim read titan battles in books, so can't recall (m)any titan melee actions. How does AT handle it? Kick? Headbutt? Some sort of damaging field?

 

They can attack without a melee weapon, but it’s not as powerful as if they did. From what I recall, the strength is their size or something. It’s been a while since I’ve played, but I do know there is a way. That being said, don’t get caught by Titans with melee weapons, they will tear you apart… and by Titans I mean Reavers, though there are some rules you can use to get a Warlord or Iconoclast into melee very quickly. 

[Sherrypie]

Titans are big and made from durable materials. They can smash things up pretty bad by sheer mass. This is how AT handles it: all titans can smash each other and the larger you are, more it hurts. I've killed many engines with headlong shoulder tackles with my Warhounds, even.

 

In LI (as well as many other editions of Epic) the process is abstracted: a titan is so and so dangerous, roll attacks. A larger god-machine will still stomp around and kill a bunch of ants trying to hurt it.

[Deschenus Maximus]

I really wish there was a game that was somewhere halfway between Titanicus and Titandeath in terms of rules granularity. I absolutely love AT but I wish there was a mass Titan battle game that's not as watered down/boring as Titandeath is.

[Crablezworth]

 

I really wish there was a game that was somewhere halfway between Titanicus and Titandeath in terms of rules granularity. I absolutely love AT but I wish there was a mass Titan battle game that's not as watered down/boring as Titandeath is.

 

Well even with AT, the granularity often chokes it, it sorta runs great 2500 and down ish but anymore and it falls apart imo. Titandeath being even more shallow but encouraging like everything and the kitchen sink, its just too "gi joe" and not well considered enough. I'm happy it exists, in so much as like its own sub format of li. If there was less focus on campaigns in the next books and more focus on missions/context like the old planetsrike/cityfight etc expansions for 40k I'd be happy. 

[DuskRaider]

I’m still sour about the fact that GW couldn’t be bothered to make Knights their own faction and instead cobjobbed them into an Auxiliary role. Legions Imperialis should be the perfect game to run an entire house of Knights and not be OP, but instead we got… what we got. 
 

I bring this up here because Knights are difficult to play in AT. It’s an uphill battle (which it should be to a point), most of their weapons are absolutely useless and their cohesion rules not just for Banners but entire Lances makes it difficult to effectively move them around the battlefield. Most of their weaponry is (or should be) more geared towards anti-infantry and / or anti-tank, but it really doesn’t seem to do either all that well. 

[Crablezworth]

 

I’m still sour about the fact that GW couldn’t be bothered to make Knights their own faction and instead cobjobbed them into an Auxiliary role. Legions Imperialis should be the perfect game to run an entire house of Knights and not be OP, but instead we got… what we got. 
 

I bring this up here because Knights are difficult to play in AT. It’s an uphill battle (which it should be to a point), most of their weapons are absolutely useless and their cohesion rules not just for Banners but entire Lances makes it difficult to effectively move them around the battlefield. Most of their weaponry is (or should be) more geared towards anti-infantry and / or anti-tank, but it really doesn’t seem to do either all that well. 

 

Disagree, personally all knight/titans is sorta boring. I really really didn't like all knight armies becoming a precedent in 40k/30k. I will agree though that even though I don't like them as a stand alone faction, they could have given them more love, and perhaps some sort of formations. I really lament armigers and moirax being tied at the hip to other knights, especially after book 2 not caring at all about msu. 

[Noserenda]

Yeah it feels like knight armies need a minimal amount of work for epic and they still haven't got to it. It's not like they'd be powerful the scale is finally perfect for them!

[DuskRaider]

 

 

Disagree, personally all knight/titans is sorta boring. I really really didn't like all knight armies becoming a precedent in 40k/30k. I will agree though that even though I don't like them as a stand alone faction, they could have given them more love, and perhaps some sort of formations. I really lament armigers and moirax being tied at the hip to other knights, especially after book 2 not caring at all about msu. 

When you’ve got armies running around with a boatload of Heavy and Super Heavy tanks, 30 Basilisks or Vindicator Russes and entire Astartes armies camping 4” outside of your DZ, I don’t think a Household is going to break the game. They need a point drop and yes, Armigers do need to be unbound. 

[Pacific81]

 

I really wish there was a game that was somewhere halfway between Titanicus and Titandeath in terms of rules granularity. I absolutely love AT but I wish there was a mass Titan battle game that's not as watered down/boring as Titandeath is.

Epic Space Marine/NetEpic is probably the closest to what you are after. The game itself is a much leaner version of Legions but the titan combat is pretty fun - titan hit charts so you can try and aim for head, legs, reactor, weapons etc. which means you can get some quite random variable effects, and titans aren't just multi-wound weapon platforms that have a nice miniature.

[Mandragola]

I really love AT as a game but even I would admit that, above a certain size of game, it works less well. When there are too many engines on the board it becomes too easy to focus down a titan in a single phase. That means all the cool stuff about repairing engines kind of falls away, as titans are already dead before they get a chance to repair. And on the other end of the scale, a too-small game can be frustrating if you can't bring enough firepower onto a target to ever kill anything.

 

So my recommendation is to play games of AT somewhere between 1250 and 2500 points. Anything bigger or smaller than that gets weird. Within that, don't worry too much about the mix of engines you have on each side, as it can be fun to have similar forces face each other, or totally different ones.

 

I haven't tried Titandeath, despite actually owning a silly enough number of titans to make a 6000 point army for it. It just isn't my preferred type of game.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, the sweet spot is usually around 2,000 - 2,500 points. That’ll get you around 5-6 Titans per player, give or take depending on your Maniple and the type of Titans you bring to the game (or if you use Knights). Obviously if you take something like an Extergimus you’re going to have an even lower model count. Anything higher than that and the game becomes a chore. 

[Crablezworth]

 

Yeah, the sweet spot is usually around 2,000 - 2,500 points. That’ll get you around 5-6 Titans per player, give or take depending on your Maniple and the type of Titans you bring to the game (or if you use Knights). Obviously if you take something like an Extergimus you’re going to have an even lower model count. Anything higher than that and the game becomes a chore. 

 

Even playing within the sweet spot, without a bit of communication, the games could still be really really bad. Showing up with a fairly balanced force only to fight 3 warlord or a warmastesr and some hounds really sucks/sucked. 

[DuskRaider]

The Warmaster is a case of putting all your eggs in one basket. It’s not easy to take down, but its firepower doesn’t make up for it, nor does that fact that you can only cram a couple Warhounds in with it. Same with taking on a few Warlords, though IMO that’s more difficult to deal with than a Warmaster. Still, a Brawler Warlord can easily strip the shields off of one and melee Reavers are a Warlord’s worst nightmare. 
 

That’s to say that even if a Maniple seems scarier than others, they still have weaknesses and are balanced as a result. But who doesn’t want a challenge anyhow?

[Crablezworth]

The better games were honestly either closer to mirror match or generally like couple reavers/couple hounds each and a splash of knights. Mirror match axiom likely fun, but I honestly found the maniple system not great. I don't think it's easy to balance alternating activation as it is with turn based. 

[DuskRaider]

To each their own. I’ve played a variety of Maniples against the same and I found that if you and your opponent both know what they’re doing, it can be a lot of fun using each Maniple / Titan’s strengths and weaknesses to the best of your ability. I often play Reaver and Warlord heavy, my buddy prefers Warlord and Warhound. Another one likes a mix of them all and my one friend just getting into it wants to do Krytos so he’s concentrating on Warlords and Warbringers.
 

Each Legio has a combination that works best for them and can be used in a variety of play styles. I play very aggressively and like to get close, my one friend prefers to try and keep distance and another is more of a mid field player. There’s so many different factors to the game that it’s kinda hard to pin down just one single aspect of it and it varies which is why I think it’s probably the best balanced game that GW has ever made. Even the Legios are all balanced at this point thanks to the Traitor and Loyalist compendiums.