I want to change some things about some chapters

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Ok, first of all. Blood Angels. You have too much going on. Scale it back. I love you guys, but the vampire angle adds literally nothing to your character. You already have the Black Rage, and that's great! Showing the scars of an ancient titanic struggle between good and evil still hurting these immortal holy warriors of today is perfect angel coding. I know you have blood in your name. I know your primarch is literally named Sanguinus. But you guys so clearly want to be angels so much more than you want to be vampires, and that's totally fine. You don't need all of this to justify being called the Blood Angels - you're Angels designed for War, and War necessitates Blood, so it's all good. We can all just agree the Red Thirst was never real except when we're talking about the Flesh Tearers. It's fine for them because it fits their theming of being crazy in the berserk serial killer way.

 

Dark Angels. Yes, you have the Fallen and that's wonderful. But the Blood Angels really want to be Angels, and you really want to be Knights. You can be knights and keep your grim reapery/angel of death thing going on, doesn't clash at all, it's just part of your heraldry. You can even still call the Fallen the Fallen, that's ok, Fallen knights aren't as much of a thing but they're there in the concept of oathbreakers. I personally think you should lean more into your Lion theming - I know you have a complicated relationship with your primarch but there's a lot of room to explore in being lionhearted - but even if you don't, you've got this beautiful thing going on with the Ravenwing and the Deathwing. Rather than being Dark Knights (comparably edgy to Dark Angels), I propose you name yourselves Raven Knights and just explore that space for a while.

 

Space Wolves - no notes, you know what you want and you do it.

 

Imperial Fists. Frankly you're an embarrassment and you're consistently outperformed by your own successors. Just let the Black Templars take over and you can hang out in the Third Founding.

 

Salamanders. You guys also have a lot going on but it somehow works. You put a lot of work into handcrafting your arms and armor because you're doing this whole, Salamanders don't flinch in the face of fire thing, but it also gels with your whole 'we care about defending humans on the individual level' thing by showing you care enough to hand make the toughest equipment. You favor heat weapons to go with the drake theme, but the drake theme helps the humanity thing because it's like your hoard is the humans you save. Great thematic blending. Only complaint is that Salamander is sort of weak and you should fully embrace yourselves as Dragons. I understand Salamander is maybe more tasteful, but we don't come to 40k for tasteful.

 

White Scars. You have so much potential and GW refuses to do anything with it. You have a lot of little themes building into your big theme - Scars, Speed, Independence all feeding into this image of warriors who fight for the joy of it all, the rebels with hearts of gold. You come across as stoic but that's because you're entirely disinterested in everyone's else's drama. You're like Space Wolves but with more social and emotional intelligence. I just want these things to be developed more. Give me an anthology that's White Scars sharing stories of their most insane stunts. I want a story about an Inquisitor who absolutely knows a successor chapter is pranking the hell out of him, but their paperwork is flawless, their worlds all paid extra on their tithes,their Chapter Master is perfectly civil, and most importantly, he can't prove anything. Tell me about how five White Scars successors send a company each to meet up once a century and compete, and whichever chapter wins the competition forms a little crusade fleet out of the gathered marines and it's a huge honor just to be involved. Give me a fresh out of scout training White Scar attempting to steal a Custode jetbike.

 

I have less strong opinions about the other chapters. Raven Guard and Iron Hands are also criminally underrated. I really appreciate how the Ultramarines redeemed themselves by pivoting from 'worships good tactics book' to 'only sane man suddenly in charge of circus'. Honestly I'm mostly want the Angel chapters to sort their stuff out.

[Xenith]

Moved to the SM section as this is purely about Space Marines. 

[TheArtilleryman]

Interesting topic. One of the things that stands out for me when we talk about 40K chapters is the difference between codex and non-codex chapters. The codex chapters get left behind a bit because of their lack of special units. BA, DA and SW all have that bit extra to make them stand out. this could be leveraged for the other chapters to help improve their interest level.
 

Blood Angels: I agree about the vampire thing and don’t find it necessary. Angel works more than Twilight for these guys (actually really didn’t mean to reference two vampire series omg)…

 

Dark Angels: Yes I like the knights imagery but the knights were a bigger thing for the Fallen as they were native to Caliban than it was for the Terran-born elements of the legion, which the loyal DAs were primarily made up of. The thing with the Fallen is like their whole history and so the secretive dark moody thing works. Definitely wouldn’t call them Raven Knights as it’s too close to Raven Guard. They already have Ravenwing which really could have been called something else and also steals the White Scars’ thunder. Deathwing are cool but I don’t like the hoods that cover their eyes, they are just silly.

 

Space Wolves: In terms of their character, I agree and think they are great, but I’ve never been keen on the mutated guys. They are a step too far for me in terms of corruption.

 

Imperial Fists: in 40K they’ve always been a bit bland, but some of the lore is nice. If you read Phalanx from the Soul Drinkers series, some of their characters are nicely fleshed out. I think they get a lot more love in the Heresy than in 40K. In 40K, it would be nice to see something for them that reflects their defensive capability, like maybe special shield-carrying units or something. And, this might be controversial, but I’m not that keen on the Black Templars …

 

Salamanders: The Salamander is actually a pretty cool creature. Totally different in mythology than in real life of course, and that’s what we should draw from here. There are loads of amazing depictions in European, Arab and Asian folk lore, and the creature they are actually named after is the Salamander native to Nocturne, which is one helluva beast. Would be nice to see more Middle-Eastern or Asian influences in Salamander marine styling imo. Not sure on special units, but should be something burny and really tough.

 

White Scars: In the heresy, these guys are totally boss. They have so much culture and character bleeding out of every pore and Jagatai is an incredible primarch; possibly my favourite of the lot. This goes a bit flat in 40K and reflects their traditional status as one of the “other” legions. I agree there should be some more 40K fiction for them and some special elite mounted units in the rules. It’s kind of a shame that the DA have the monopoly on this with the Ravenwing.

 

Raven Guard: They are in a similar boat to the White Scars with less exposure in 40K and more in the heresy. I think they are still an attractive chapter because of the “hit and run” idea, but this could be fleshed out with a special unit or some more characterful rules to reflect it. Improved infiltrator-type units would be nice.

 

Iron Hands: These guys get the short straw both in the heresy and in 40K imo. They get absolutely obliterated, have a primarch that dies too early to be inspiring and in 40K have always been an “other.” They could have special units which heavily lean into the Mechanicus link, like robots or something. 
 

Ultramarines: for ever and a day the poster boys of humanity, they don’t need anything else, whether you are a fan or not. Even without much in the way of special units (although they do get the honour guard) they are so well fleshed-out that they manage just fine.

[Orange Knight]

As time has gone on and I have matured - both physically and mentally - and I find myself liking the more subtle elements of design as opposed to the more overt.

I think some of the chapters are basically cartoon caricatures of various idea mashes, and could indeed be toned down.

 

The Blood Angels are artistic and their art is inspired by renaissance Italy - this is very cool. They have a flaw which can turn them into berserkers - this is again, very cool, but it could be adjusted to a more emotionally damaging, less common occurrence. Instead it's ultimately reflected in units on the tabletop with an edgy paint scheme. 

The overt vampirism is an element that has occasionally been written well, but is also pretty ridiculous and could be dropped in my opinion.

 

Space Wolves, visually, are a hot mess, and their recent lore has not endeared them to me.

The wolf pelts, talismans, etc are bordering on a fetishism. 

The lore, which is supposed to reflect a savage but heroic nordic culture instead paints them as undisciplined, unprofessional, quick to anger and inconsistent. 

I understand the trope of pretending to be savage and uneducated to outsiders, only to reveal a genius maneuver when the time is right, but this has not materialised in recent novels and lore.

I'm hoping that when the Primaris refresh eventually rolls around, that the Space Wolf design is toned down significantly. More Nordic symbolism, less Furry.

 

The Dark Angels are visually great, I think they are my favourites of the distinctive Chapters, probably alongside the Black Templars. I love the idea of having these ancient keepers of secret lore and weapons, and also the historical knightly inspiration.

Unfortunate, the lore presented over the last decades or so has not done this chapter any favours. They have been painted as insular, untrustworthy, utterly unreliable and bereft of honour. These "Knights" would flee from battles, leaving their comrades to die without aid in pursuit of their own agendas. Their shame has become a driving factor greater than their responsibility as protectors of the Imperium, and it has ultimately become a meme ahead of anything else. Very unlikable chapter as a result, and this is great shame in my opinion. Hopefully the return of the Lion will usher some revisionism and conclude some of these plots.

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

I find it weird that one would want BA to drop the vampire thing, but then stay silent on the Space wolf werewolf thing. Or is the point the that vampiric mutation thing clashes with the desired angel motif, while the werewolf mutation thing doesn't clash with the wolf motif?

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I find it weird that one would want BA to drop the vampire thing, but then stay silent on the Space wolf werewolf thing. Or is the point the that vampiric mutation thing clashes with the desired angel motif, while the werewolf mutation thing doesn't clash with the wolf motif?

 

Is this in response to me?

 

I would shed no tears if the Space Wolves dropped the wulfen. I'm also not a fan of riding Wolves and what not, but I do actually like the fenrisian wolf hunting pack - this actually makes sense to me and is a good reflection of their homeworld.

[Indy Techwisp]

In my totally unbiased opinion, I think Space Wolves need to chill.

 

But being serious:

 

I feel Dark Angels need to cut back on the Wings. You don't need to have your fingers in every pie at once. Just keep the Deathwing Terminators as your special subfaction and enjoy having one of the more cohesive design themes for SM factions.

 

White Scars need more love. Take all the Ravenwing stuff freed up by Dark Angels dropping it and repurpose it here. Character on a Jetbike, special Biker units, etc. really lean into the faction's strengths. Also bring back Jaghatai Khan.

 

Space Wolves (for real). Tone down the wolves. Yes, I know it's heresy to say, but there's such a thing as going too far and Space Wolves have 100% passed that point ages back. The fur pelts and Viking berserker vibe is great, but it seems GW care more about how many actual literal wolves they can push into the roster.

 

Imperial Fists. Honestly? Doing great. Maybe they need a couple more "big defence" units (Storm Shield Gravis maybe?), but other than that they're fine.

(Bonus: Black Templars. Same as Imperial Fists. I don't really see anything in major need of a change with them.)

 

Blood Angels. We've had the Death Company wave, yes. But these guys are meant to all be Vampires and I think they could do with at least one non-Death Company unit that sells this, because Sangy Guard do not imo.

 

Iron Hands. I don't know enough about the Iron Hands to really have a say here. Maybe a unit that leans more blatantly into the "heavily cybernetic" aspect of the Legion?

 

Ultramarines. Pretty much no changes here. We need a baseline after all. (Maybe leave some character design space for the other Legions tho, UM currently eats up nearly all of that.)

 

Salamanders. Same as Iron Hands, I don't have enough knowledge to really suggest much. Maybe a unique flamer squad, idk.

 

Raven Guard. These guys need help, like White Scars. Unlike white scars tho, the "Stealth/Tactical" role is oversaturated by Phobos stuff already, so it's a bit hard to think of anything they specifically would get.

[Marshal Reinhard]

43 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Is this in response to me?

No.

 

It's a response to the OP

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

3 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

I find it weird that one would want BA to drop the vampire thing, but then stay silent on the Space wolf werewolf thing. Or is the point the that vampiric mutation thing clashes with the desired angel motif, while the werewolf mutation thing doesn't clash with the wolf motif?

Basically your second point. Werewolves makes sense in the thematic context of Space Wolves whole thing - the idea that they're not just spiritually wolves and follow a wolf based identity, they quite literally are part wolf. Is it a little over the top? Yes. But it's consistent with their identity as a chapter, and 40k thrives on over the top, so all in all it really works, IMO.

 

It's all taste. But I don't think that the Wulfen are any more egregious than them riding wolves into battle, or having wolves even accompany them on the field.

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

As time has gone on and I have matured - both physically and mentally - and I find myself liking the more subtle elements of design as opposed to the more overt.

I think some of the chapters are basically cartoon caricatures of various idea mashes, and could indeed be toned down.

 

...

 

The Dark Angels are visually great, I think they are my favourites of the distinctive Chapters, probably alongside the Black Templars. I love the idea of having these ancient keepers of secret lore and weapons, and also the historical knightly inspiration.

Unfortunate, the lore presented over the last decades or so has not done this chapter any favours. They have been painted as insular, untrustworthy, utterly unreliable and bereft of honour. These "Knights" would flee from battles, leaving their comrades to die without aid in pursuit of their own agendas. Their shame has become a driving factor greater than their responsibility as protectors of the Imperium, and it has ultimately become a meme ahead of anything else. Very unlikable chapter as a result, and this is great shame in my opinion. Hopefully the return of the Lion will usher some revisionism and conclude some of these plots.

 

 

I think that this too is the point. Firstly, very strong aesthetic - in a way that is unique to Blood Angels very strong aesthetic that you commented on, which I also really like - that feeds into their knightly identity. But historically knights of many orders have been just as terribly secretive and underhanded as there have been honorable members. Let's look at the ur example of knight mythology : King Arthur's knights of the round table, which includes the traitorous Sir Mordred and the betrayal of Sir Lancelot with the Queen. From the beginning there's the struggle between the ideals knights are sworn to uphold and the reality of human ambition. And 11 out of 13 knights will uphold those oaths - but the betrayal of the other two is a stain the others will not forget, will not forgive.

 

In this light, I think the Dark Angels are characterized perfectly.

 

Secondly, they would be so much more boring without this kind of drama. What's left? They have ancient technology? Look at the Iron Hands, who have a much stronger relationship with ancient technology, and see where it's taken them. They have the Ravenwing and the Deathwing? So they're slightly better equipped than Ultramarines? Easily the most interesting aspect of the Dark Angels is that I really feel that they know what good is and what good means, but unlike the Space Wolves and the Salamanders, they know that they fall short of that, and it burns them. That's good writing.

Edited July 29 by Dark Apostle Thirst

[SvenIronhand]

I think a thread like this risks falling into impassionate pronouncements and recriminations. That said, I like things as they are, mostly. But if I were to emphasize or change one thing in SW lore, I would emphasize the Ultima Founding successor chapters. Not just the Wolfspear, the whole constellation. What are they like? What is their way of war? How do they relate to Fenris, the Space Wolves, and Fenrisian culture? 

Edited July 29 by SvenIronhand

[HeadlessCross]

Flanderization is gonna happen no matter what. The problem is when there becomes a lack of less decorated models for those that don't like it (myself included) and then there becomes bespoke rules for everything because a certain model has more decor. Nobody asked for Hounds of Morkai to be a thing and they don't need to be anything more than alternative Reiver models. 

[TheArtilleryman]

18 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Flanderization

Love this. Thanks to you I have learnt something new and fascinating :)

[SvenIronhand]

57 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Flanderization is gonna happen no matter what. The problem is when there becomes a lack of less decorated models for those that don't like it (myself included) and then there becomes bespoke rules for everything because a certain model has more decor. Nobody asked for Hounds of Morkai to be a thing and they don't need to be anything more than alternative Reiver models. 

I would rather have Primaris Hunter packs or Claw packs over Hounds.

[Subtleknife]

It is a travesty that GW are rolling out special snowflake units for certain chapters yet White Scars still don't have a special character on a bike. 

[LSM]

I suppose my thoughts:

• Blood Angels. I love both the "Space Vampires" angle and the "Psychically Scarred" angle, but agree that the Red Thirst and Black Rage don't really gel for me. (I recall a moment while playing Battlesector where the Blood Angels commander was worried about some SoB finding out about their secret flaw, and I wasn't sure which one he was talking about.) I do tend to like the successors who play into one aspect or the other more than the actual Blood Angels - the Blood Drinkers or Charnel Guard for the "we're vampires" stuff, the Flesh Tearers for the Black Rage. (I'm also not a big fan of the Sanguinary Guard - I think it's a really cool look for Dante, a single character, that's a bit too much when you get whole units with the same design. I'm excited to see the Primaris'd versions of them, to see if they get toned down into something more my speed.)
• Dark Angels. I do like the Fallen, and this insane pride that they have which then leads them into a crazy level of pseudo-self-hatred. (As the 30k series established, all Legions had loyalists and traitors, so now the Fallen aren't special. The Dark Angels fear and obsession with them is.) Part of me wants to like the North American First Nations imagery that was leaned into in the old Deathwing stuff, but ultimately it doesn't gel well so I don't mind that it's been (mostly) dropped. I wish more would be done with the Lion, now that he's been brought back - that's been a bit of a damp squib for me.
• Space Wolves. I'd basically like to ratchet them back to pre-Codex: Eye of Terror levels of wolfiness (where the Wulfen and Fenrisian Wolves were only a notable force in the 13th Company, which had been operating in the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years). Lean back more into the viking angle as standard.
• Ultramarines. The poster boys, who feel like they should be the most "basic" Chapter, but have had so much focus that they've developed a whole host of quirks. As someone who can appreciate vanilla (the finest of the flavours) I'd have a bit of a sense of disappointment about this, except...
• Imperial Fists. The actual "basic" Chapter, I feel, these days. And I like them for being it - it's a role that should exist. The Black Templars, as the most prominent Successor Chapter, also add some vicarious spice.
• Raven Guard. I like their theming, and I like that people who want to lean into it can choose to do so (or not). I do want to see some new Vanguard Veterans (as a unit of Omni Armoured Lightning Claw Jump Pack'd marines) to be another thematic choice, but I don't need actual bespoke Raven Guard units.
• White Scars. Love the lore, and I'm hoping that an Emperor's Children release will include some new stuff of those two tangling some more. I'd like to see a generic "Veteran Outriders" squad, to perhaps replace the Ravenwing Knights, that 'Scars players can then also make extensive use of.
• Iron Hands. Love the lore, but model wise they are in desperate need of a Bionic Upgrades kit. (How Forgeworld has never done this I do not know.)
• Salamanders. I left my most controversial opinion for last. So: as a younger man, Codex: Armageddon was extremely influential on me, and one of the stars of the show were the Salamanders. And they were very cool, with a lot of neat little rules, but the thing that actually had a greater effect was the army shown off in the pictures. And it's silly, but Neil Green's choice to paint his commander with Simon-Phoenix-styled Afro-Carribean skin and bleach blond hair was like a minor epiphany for little me. "Oh, right, I don't have to paint everyone's skin 'Flesh Tone'. Black people exist, Asians, etc." So - specifically to me - I gained a positive associated between the Salamanders Chapter and black people. I then faded out of the hobby for a number of years, and when I returned... the Salamanders had been given (in 5th?) a new genetic quirk: their skin, under the Nocturne sky, blackened to various shades of ashen grey. And I understand that there are thematic ways this fits (like the inverse of the emo Raven Guard being unusually pale), and I'm not accusing anyone else of anything untoward, but due to my personal association, to me: it looks like blackface. And I just can't. 

[TheArtilleryman]

4 hours ago, LSM said:

Salamanders. I left my most controversial opinion for last. So: as a younger man, Codex: Armageddon was extremely influential on me, and one of the stars of the show were the Salamanders. And they were very cool, with a lot of neat little rules, but the thing that actually had a greater effect was the army shown off in the pictures. And it's silly, but Neil Green's choice to paint his commander with Simon-Phoenix-styled Afro-Carribean skin and bleach blond hair was like a minor epiphany for little me. "Oh, right, I don't have to paint everyone's skin 'Flesh Tone'. Black people exist, Asians, etc." So - specifically to me - I gained a positive associated between the Salamanders Chapter and black people. I then faded out of the hobby for a number of years, and when I returned... the Salamanders had been given (in 5th?) a new genetic quirk: their skin, under the Nocturne sky, blackened to various shades of ashen grey. And I understand that there are thematic ways this fits (like the inverse of the emo Raven Guard being unusually pale), and I'm not accusing anyone else of anything untoward, but due to my personal association, to me: it looks like blackface. And I just can't. 

You know what, this is really interesting and I thought similar. However, I think they’ve made a point of it being that unnatural shade of coal black though because of the radiation so they aren’t just saying “Salamanders are black guys.” Their lore doesn’t come across in any way African or Caribbean either so there is no stereotypical trope.
 

Personally I’ve been a lot more aware of the colour of my guys’ skin recently, as I always used to unconsciously just plump for white, and so I’ve done almost my whole imperial guard army black, with just a handful of white guys. It’s actually a lot nicer to paint as well in my opinion.

[SvenIronhand]

7 hours ago, LSM said:

• Salamanders. I left my most controversial opinion for last. So: as a younger man, Codex: Armageddon was extremely influential on me, and one of the stars of the show were the Salamanders. And they were very cool, with a lot of neat little rules, but the thing that actually had a greater effect was the army shown off in the pictures. And it's silly, but Neil Green's choice to paint his commander with Simon-Phoenix-styled Afro-Carribean skin and bleach blond hair was like a minor epiphany for little me. "Oh, right, I don't have to paint everyone's skin 'Flesh Tone'. Black people exist, Asians, etc." So - specifically to me - I gained a positive associated between the Salamanders Chapter and black people. I then faded out of the hobby for a number of years, and when I returned... the Salamanders had been given (in 5th?) a new genetic quirk: their skin, under the Nocturne sky, blackened to various shades of ashen grey. And I understand that there are thematic ways this fits (like the inverse of the emo Raven Guard being unusually pale), and I'm not accusing anyone else of anything untoward, but due to my personal association, to me: it looks like blackface. And I just can't. 

Very cool anecdote. 

[LSM]

8 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

You know what, this is really interesting and I thought similar. However, I think they’ve made a point of it being that unnatural shade of coal black though because of the radiation so they aren’t just saying “Salamanders are black guys.” Their lore doesn’t come across in any way African or Caribbean either so there is no stereotypical trope.

 

Oh yeah, I know there's no negative intent, or anything of the like. It's just... my ur-Salamander is the guy in the bottom right below. So when I see black skin on Salamanders, it looks like blackface. (Like, the practise of people putting on minstrel shows, not actual black people).

 

 

Edited July 31 by LSM

[TheArtilleryman]

4 hours ago, LSM said:

Oh yeah, I know there's no negative intent, or anything of the like. It's just... my ur-Salamander is the guy in the bottom right below. So when I see black skin on Salamanders, it looks like blackface. (Like, the practise of people putting on minstrel shows, not actual black people).

Oh yeah, I got the reference. Just never thought of it like that before.

 

I remember that article in White Dwarf -  very cool!

[Orange Knight]

I'm sorry, but comparing a science fiction group of charcoal- skinned warriors that live on an ashen volcanic planet to "blackface" is actually offensive to my intelligence.

Are the White Scars "Yellowface" now? 

 

The way some of these terms are thrown around is ludicrous, and frankly I thought this forum was better than yet another place filled with racism baiting.

[TrawlingCleaner]

24 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm sorry, but comparing a science fiction group of charcoal- skinned warriors that live on an ashen volcanic planet to "blackface" is actually offensive to my intelligence.

Are the White Scars "Yellowface" now? 

 

The way some of these terms are thrown around is ludicrous, and frankly I thought this forum was better than yet another place filled with racism baiting.

 

21 hours ago, LSM said:

and I'm not accusing anyone else of anything untoward, but due to my personal association, to me:

 

LSM isn't accusing anyone, or you, of anything? Chill brother

I think the bit LSM is talkig about is the changing of Marine's skintone because of the reaction to Nocturne's radiation, so White Scars aren't the same thing here. I can see where LSM is coming from, it's a bit of grey area for sure. It's the same for other geneseed essentially bleaching skin like in the Night Lords or Raven Guard, it's definitely all down to personal tastes and for some is too close to the knuckle. People don't like Sisters or Daughters of Khaine for example as they're overly sexualised as a kind of similar example. For me; every planet, chapter, organisation etc, has people of all skintones. I ignore the changing of skintones from their geneseed or the planet is low light or something like Fenris, it feels a bit odd to me

Edited July 31 by TrawlingCleaner

[AutumnEffect]

55 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm sorry, but comparing a science fiction group of charcoal- skinned warriors that live on an ashen volcanic planet to "blackface" is actually offensive to my intelligence.

Are the White Scars "Yellowface" now? 

 

The way some of these terms are thrown around is ludicrous, and frankly I thought this forum was better than yet another place filled with racism baiting.

 

The person in question was stating that they prefer Salamanders as having features of people of African origin rather than them having the features of people of European origin that have black skin like the image I've included for reference.
I have to agree with LSM, the effect to me does look like blackface.

I must express confusion as I don't really understand what about that opinion you find offensive and I'm curious to know the reasoning.

The comparison to White Scars is a little off the mark as there have been quite a lot of depictions of them with European facial features, a lot of them very recent as well. The reference I've included is from 2019 and he's clearly not an individual with East Asian features.

One rather tame opinion on the features of Salamanders hardly makes this a "place filled with racism(sic) baiting".

Edited July 31 by AutumnEffect

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

On 7/30/2024 at 2:30 PM, LSM said:

I suppose my thoughts:

• Blood Angels. I love both the "Space Vampires" angle and the "Psychically Scarred" angle, but agree that the Red Thirst and Black Rage don't really gel for me. (I recall a moment while playing Battlesector where the Blood Angels commander was worried about some SoB finding out about their secret flaw, and I wasn't sure which one he was talking about.) I do tend to like the successors who play into one aspect or the other more than the actual Blood Angels - the Blood Drinkers or Charnel Guard for the "we're vampires" stuff, the Flesh Tearers for the Black Rage. (I'm also not a big fan of the Sanguinary Guard - I think it's a really cool look for Dante, a single character, that's a bit too much when you get whole units with the same design. I'm excited to see the Primaris'd versions of them, to see if they get toned down into something more my speed.)
• Dark Angels. I do like the Fallen, and this insane pride that they have which then leads them into a crazy level of pseudo-self-hatred. (As the 30k series established, all Legions had loyalists and traitors, so now the Fallen aren't special. The Dark Angels fear and obsession with them is.) Part of me wants to like the North American First Nations imagery that was leaned into in the old Deathwing stuff, but ultimately it doesn't gel well so I don't mind that it's been (mostly) dropped. I wish more would be done with the Lion, now that he's been brought back - that's been a bit of a damp squib for me.
• Space Wolves. I'd basically like to ratchet them back to pre-Codex: Eye of Terror levels of wolfiness (where the Wulfen and Fenrisian Wolves were only a notable force in the 13th Company, which had been operating in the Eye of Terror for 10,000 years). Lean back more into the viking angle as standard.
• Ultramarines. The poster boys, who feel like they should be the most "basic" Chapter, but have had so much focus that they've developed a whole host of quirks. As someone who can appreciate vanilla (the finest of the flavours) I'd have a bit of a sense of disappointment about this, except...
• Imperial Fists. The actual "basic" Chapter, I feel, these days. And I like them for being it - it's a role that should exist. The Black Templars, as the most prominent Successor Chapter, also add some vicarious spice.
• Raven Guard. I like their theming, and I like that people who want to lean into it can choose to do so (or not). I do want to see some new Vanguard Veterans (as a unit of Omni Armoured Lightning Claw Jump Pack'd marines) to be another thematic choice, but I don't need actual bespoke Raven Guard units.
• White Scars. Love the lore, and I'm hoping that an Emperor's Children release will include some new stuff of those two tangling some more. I'd like to see a generic "Veteran Outriders" squad, to perhaps replace the Ravenwing Knights, that 'Scars players can then also make extensive use of.
• Iron Hands. Love the lore, but model wise they are in desperate need of a Bionic Upgrades kit. (How Forgeworld has never done this I do not know.)
• Salamanders. I left my most controversial opinion for last. So: as a younger man, Codex: Armageddon was extremely influential on me, and one of the stars of the show were the Salamanders. And they were very cool, with a lot of neat little rules, but the thing that actually had a greater effect was the army shown off in the pictures. And it's silly, but Neil Green's choice to paint his commander with Simon-Phoenix-styled Afro-Carribean skin and bleach blond hair was like a minor epiphany for little me. "Oh, right, I don't have to paint everyone's skin 'Flesh Tone'. Black people exist, Asians, etc." So - specifically to me - I gained a positive associated between the Salamanders Chapter and black people. I then faded out of the hobby for a number of years, and when I returned... the Salamanders had been given (in 5th?) a new genetic quirk: their skin, under the Nocturne sky, blackened to various shades of ashen grey. And I understand that there are thematic ways this fits (like the inverse of the emo Raven Guard being unusually pale), and I'm not accusing anyone else of anything untoward, but due to my personal association, to me: it looks like blackface. And I just can't. 

This is Robert Downey Jr. before he did Tropical Thunder. So Kirk Lazarus in essence:

 

"I´m the dude, playing a dude, disguised as another dude."

 

Nothing spectacular to be offended by. 

[SvenIronhand]

Firstly, I personally love to see 40k bring people together and overcome preconceived notions of what other people or peoples are like.

As for the Salamanders skin color, I think it could go either way. I do see the resemblance to — say — Little Black Sambo or some of Tolkien's more 'unfortunate' depictions of cultures modeled after North and Sub-Saharan Africa.

"'More Men going to Mordor,' he [Gollum] said in a low voice. 'Dark faces. We have not seen Men like these before... They are fierce. They have black eyes, and long black hair, and gold rings in their ears... lots of beautiful gold. And some have red paint on their cheeks, and red cloaks and their flags are red, and the tips of their spears; and they have round shields, yellow and black with big spikes. Not nice; very cruel wicked Men they look. Almost as bad as Orcs, and much bigger. Sméagol thinks they have come out of the South beyond the Great River's end..."

But on the other hand, there is an element of removal here. Actual, factual black people as we encounter them are not often pitch or coal black, nor do any of them have literal red eyes. That said, I saw some — let's say it was less than edifying or considerate — discourse within fan communities about how Salamanders are 'the only black marines' around the time of Avenging Son with the black Ultramarine on its cover. That was not a good thing, in the least. 

[Indy Techwisp]

12 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

The comparison to White Scars is a little off the mark as there have been quite a lot of depictions of them with European facial features, a lot of them very recent as well. The reference I've included is from 2019 and he's clearly not an individual with East Asian features.

 

Well... yeah?
They're not "East Asian" features, they're Chogorian features.

While yes, the White Scars are clearly inspired by Mongolian culture and did get that big influx during the heresy from... Terra's Neo-Mongolia, I guess?, they're primarily recruiting from the world of Chogoris which from the examples we've seen doesn't actually have particularly strong East Asian features, rather being more like Eastern European features but with a Mongolian/East Asian type of complexion.

 

This is pretty consistent across most of the modelled White Scars faces we've seen on the tabletop, while the art varies between having more East Asian features to more Eastern European features but with a relatively consistent Mongolian/East Asian complexion.

 

So even if it's not what was expected, it's consistent, which implies that it's intentional.

This, of course, isn't helped by White Scars having next to no lore focus in 40k proper and mostly being popular because of the Horus Heresy (i.e. right after the influx of Terran Born marines from actual Mongolia).