Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[Orion]

 

 

Trust me, I love Lysander. 

 

But truth be told, I would much rather he was leading Aggressors in combat than Terminators.

 

Grimnar can be an opportunity to "wolf-up" a Gravis suit. We've had customised Terminator variants for years. If it was up to me, he'd be a Gravis Chapter Master, and the Wolf Guard would also be clad in Gravis - Axes and shields all round.

I think we've moved on from that point.
Terminators are the new hotness. Bigger and stronger.

 

Besides, you've already got Tor Garadon fulfilling the spot of Gravis IF Captain.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

After a lot of replies I just want to say, it’s fine not to like the new models if they just don’t quite strike the right cord for you, but it seems like a lot of the complaints are grasping at straws because they’re objectively wrong/not true.

 

complaint- they’re not artisanal and are bland.

fact- you’ve got a death mask, muscular armor, baubles in multiple places, unique weapons with wings and blood drops.

 

complaint- the models look the same

fact- they have 3 clearly distinct poses that set each of them apart from each other.

 

if you don’t like them, that’s fine, but don’t make stuff up to justify why you don’t like them.

 

i don’t love them, and part of that is the lack of wings, but the rest of the reasoning I can’t put my finger on, and I don’t need to justify a palpable reason for that.

unfortunately these releases aren’t enough for me to want to come back into an active role in the hobby, but the SG really aren’t half as bad as some of you are trying to make them out to be.

[Nephaston]

 

After a lot of replies I just want to say, it’s fine not to like the new models if they just don’t quite strike the right cord for you, but it seems like a lot of the complaints are grasping at straws because they’re objectively wrong/not true.

The complaints/objections here have been reasonable. Someone on reddit complained that the PAINTJOB on the sanguinary guard was tacticool. You know, with all the gold, and shiny white feather emblems, and blazing blue swords/spears?

 

Actually, now I wonder how the new SG will look in camouflage patterns.

Edited August 14 by Nephaston

[Orange Knight]

 

I think I he lesson here is revamping legacy units and heroes should be done with being true to the classic mini as possible.

 

You need to have words with people complaining about the Sanguinor in that case. This topic is full of them.

 

[jaxom]

 

Actually, now I wonder how the new SG will look in camouflage patterns.

Don't take Shrike and these would probably make for some cool count-as Raven Guard Honor Guard.

[Orion]

 

After a lot of replies I just want to say, it’s fine not to like the new models if they just don’t quite strike the right cord for you, but it seems like a lot of the complaints are grasping at straws because they’re objectively wrong/not true.

 

complaint- they’re not artisanal and are bland.

fact- you’ve got a death mask, muscular armor, baubles in multiple places, unique weapons with wings and blood drops.

 

complaint- the models look the same

fact- they have 3 clearly distinct poses that set each of them apart from each other.

 

if you don’t like them, that’s fine, but don’t make stuff up to justify why you don’t like them.

 

i don’t love them, and part of that is the lack of wings, but the rest of the reasoning I can’t put my finger on, and I don’t need to justify a palpable reason for that.

unfortunately these releases aren’t enough for me to want to come back into an active role in the hobby, but the SG really aren’t half as bad as some of you are trying to make them out to be.

The complaints are valid.

They have significantly less weapon variety, basically no armour variety, no optional wings, no nipples, less impressive banner.

These are facts.

 

You get 5 different blades on the old ones, a power fist, 10 different helmet designs (+5 bare), 5 different torso designs. 15 different pauldron designs.

Heck, the basic tactical squad has more armour variety than these new guys in ornate artificer armour.

[Wispy]

 

I remember when people complained a lot about the nipples or made fun of them. It’s hardly iconic.

everything old is good, everything new is bad. nuance? what's that.

 

  

 

 

You need to have words with people complaining about the Sanguinor in that case. This topic is full of them.

 

*points up to above response* 

 

seriously though, i think Sanguinor is mostly taking splash damage for appearing next to the new SG (who aren't meeting expectations). You also have Ragnar, Mephiston, Belial, Azrael who are hitting the mark for folks. 

Edited August 14 by Wispy

[Scribe]

Mephiston is a great update, that's true. One of the best actually. 

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

I don't think it was a timing thing - Sword Brethren could have gone the honor guard route, but it seems GW preferred to keep them as a more typical veteran squad akin to the Sternguard, the Vanguard, the Wolf Guard, or whathaveyou. Plus the Bladeguard Vets were already pretty Templar-y in their aesthetic anyway.

 

On a similar note, I fully expect the Victrix Guard to be re-released as three-man unit in the next few years, likely simultaneous with a re-release of Calgar in Terminator Armor.

This is why I absolutely hate bespoke rules outside the special characters. 

Victrix Guard should've been a generic thing you could've done with any foot slogging Captain to begin with. Inner Circle should've just been different Bladeguard. 

 

Don't take Shrike and these would probably make for some cool count-as Raven Guard Honor Guard.

See my point above. Apparently only Blood Angels and their successors ever used a Jump Pack honour Guard for whatever reason and only their Marines sometimes go nuts. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

The complaints are valid.

They have significantly less weapon variety, basically no armour variety, no optional wings, no nipples, less impressive banner.

These are facts.

 

You get 5 different blades on the old ones, a power fist, 10 different helmet designs (+5 bare), 5 different torso designs. 15 different pauldron designs.

Heck, the basic tactical squad has more armour variety than these new guys in ornate artificer armour.

Other than the first page or two there’s been little talk about weapon variety, but a whole lot of crying about not having ‘bespoke’ weapons.

sure lack of wings is a valid complaint, less impressive banner is wholly subjective.

 

oh no, tactical marines get more options of boring torsos than the ornate guys get of cool torso! What a travesty!

 

do you want to pay an extra $15 per box for more torso options?

[Scribe]

 

Other than the first page or two there’s been little talk about weapon variety, but a whole lot of crying about not having ‘bespoke’ weapons.

sure lack of wings is a valid complaint, less impressive banner is wholly subjective.

 

oh no, tactical marines get more options of boring torsos than the ornate guys get of cool torso! What a travesty!

 

do you want to pay an extra $15 per box for more torso options?

 

Quite a few assumptions and logical fallacies going on here.

 

Why defend this? You (because I sure as hell wont buy it) are paying for less here, and likely paying more for the privilage.

 

You do you, but why defend downgrades at all?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

This is why I absolutely hate bespoke rules outside the special characters. 

Victrix Guard should've been a generic thing you could've done with any foot slogging Captain to begin with. Inner Circle should've just been different Bladeguard. 

See my point above. Apparently only Blood Angels and their successors ever used a Jump Pack honour Guard for whatever reason and only their Marines sometimes go nuts. 

I mean as far as only BA ‘sometimes going nuts’ going nuts amongst soldiers is fairly rare in general, now pile on top of that intense psychological conditioning it will begin getting extremely rare…and when a normal marine does go nuts it’s probably them falling to chaos…whereas BA ‘go nuts’ so regularly when combined with battlefield losses, it’s actually a threat to the very existence of the sons of sanguinius.

 

no one said that BA are the only chapter with a jump honor guard, but they’re the only chapter that’s been built out significantly.

if GW ever sees a monetary benefit to expand the number of unique RG options, it’s almost guaranteed that they’ll get a jump honor guard. 
 

you just sound salty that your preferred chapter doesn’t get the support the big 4 do.

 

 

 

Quite a few assumptions and logical fallacies going on here.

 

Why defend this? You (because I sure as hell wont buy it) are paying for less here, and likely paying more for the privilage.

 

You do you, but why defend downgrades at all?

No one is defending a ‘downgrade’

the quality of the models is hugely improved.

ive been pretty clear I’m not a huge fan of them at all, and find them rather disappointing. The incoming prosecutors or whatever are more less what we should have gotten for SG. Badass wings, great poses, etc.

 

im just pointing out that most of the complaints are extremely stupid and can be pretty solidly disproven.

 

someone literally complained that the models weren’t cluttered enough with gubbins so therefore they’re not artsy and they’re just alternate colored UMs, despite the fact that every unique UM kit available has a similar amount of chapter detail and clutter as the old SG have.

 

spears may not be everyone’s cup of tea for weapons, but claiming we don’t have bespoke weapons in the unit anymore is again objectively false. The spears are bespoke, the swords are bespoke.

the loss of weapon options from 3 options to 2 sucks, but was predictable based on how GW has been doing things lately and particularly after the DA refresh. So sure complain about it, blow off the steam and move on.

 

 

 

You need to have words with people complaining about the Sanguinor in that case. This topic is full of them.

 

I mean his pose always sucked based on his lore. A T posing angel when we could have had a dynamic pose that matches his lore of rocketing from the sky to act as the chapter’s savior in its darkest hour…AoS has a few examples of poses that would have been sooo much better for both the original model and the updated model.

[Orion]

 

Other than the first page or two there’s been little talk about weapon variety, but a whole lot of crying about not having ‘bespoke’ weapons.

sure lack of wings is a valid complaint, less impressive banner is wholly subjective.

 

oh no, tactical marines get more options of boring torsos than the ornate guys get of cool torso! What a travesty!

 

do you want to pay an extra $15 per box for more torso options?

 

No, I shouldn't have to pay an extra $15 per box. You're telling me they can do 10 different helmets and 5 different torsos, but now suddenly they have to charge more?

I'm not even asking for more torsos, I'm asking for some variety, however small. Why is GW suddenly unable to provide that? Why does every space marine in the squad have to be cookie cutter? It's bad enough for intercessors, but for 3 dudes in artificer armour it's getting ridiculous.

Same for weapons and helmets.

 

You can be dismissive about it, but it doesn't make me wrong.

You're saying people's complaints are invalid when they aren't, because it can be backed up with basic facts that we all have access to.

[HeadlessCross]

 

I mean as far as only BA ‘sometimes going nuts’ going nuts amongst soldiers is fairly rare in general, now pile on top of that intense psychological conditioning it will begin getting extremely rare…and when a normal marine does go nuts it’s probably them falling to chaos…whereas BA ‘go nuts’ so regularly when combined with battlefield losses, it’s actually a threat to the very existence of the sons of sanguinius.

 

no one said that BA are the only chapter with a jump honor guard, but they’re the only chapter that’s been built out significantly.

 

But Blood Angels are the only ones treated that way is the problem in the same way other options are. 

 

Is it reasonable that only Dark Angels get Plasma Cannons on their Terminators and that Iron Hands and Flesh Tearers haven't in their thousands of years of existing? The Plasma Cannon isn't even good, but it should still at least be available to everyone. 

[StrangerOrders]

 

But Blood Angels are the only ones treated that way is the problem in the same way other options are. 

 

Is it reasonable that only Dark Angels get Plasma Cannons on their Terminators and that Iron Hands and Flesh Tearers haven't in their thousands of years of existing? The Plasma Cannon isn't even good, but it should still at least be available to everyone. 

Maybe I am just naive for liking lore justifications but... DA hoarding awesome weapons and not letting anyone else touch their fancy junk is about as much a part of their personality as being knights and paranoid.

 

These are the people that fought an internal civil war before the Heresy because they came in Second in a race no one else knew about.

 

Other chapters have Vanguard Veterans, which are, and again forgive me for using lore as a justification. First Company Vetetans.

 

Sanguinary Guard are functionally First Company veterans with a fancier inheritance and a Forgeworld that makes their special stuff at gunpoint. 

 

And both only begrudgingly share their stuff for influence points.

 

I know 40k has slowly turned into 'competitive silliness first and lets make everything as boring and balanced as possible' but as a setting it would be bizarre if the guys that Nepo-babied their way into the lion's share of their legion's inheritance wouldn't use it accordingly.

 

Homogenizing everything to cater to hypercompetitive folks that would be deep down happier playing 20d chess is good for some but not for me.

 

I know GW can retcon everything into apples flying up instead of falling when dropped, but I actually rather enjoy Chapter's having logical limitations within the setting's conceits. 

Edited August 14 by StrangerOrders

[Orange Knight]

 

 

No, I shouldn't have to pay an extra $15 per box. You're telling me they can do 10 different helmets and 5 different torsos, but now suddenly they have to charge more?

 

 

Before you took units of 5 or 10. There was a duplicate of each torso.

Now you take units of 3 or 6. Again, there are duplicates. Nothing has changed here, the unit is simply smaller.

 

We knew it would be ahead of time too. 

 

There is less helmets variety but the bare heads are objectively better, and the models in general have better poses and proportions. 

 

I'm looking at the original Sanguinary guard a lot these last few days due to the complaints. I think an element of nostalgia is at play - the old kit is not some example of perfected artistic expression. The bolters on the wrist are far too big, some of the leg poses look like they've been riding a horse a bit too long, and the proportions are way off as is common with the older kits.

[Fire Golem]

I don’t think (most?) people are really saying the older kit has better sculpt quality than the newer kit, but more that they prefer the ideas of the older kit, no? Like I don’t think the original kit has aged particularly well, but it’s a lot more interesting and varied than the new models, even if the actual quality isn’t as good, obviously, because it’s like 15 years old or whatever. The new sculpts are strictly better, but I’d have much preferred more of the ideas of the originals had made it to the new quality of sculpt. Hope that makes sense. 

[INKS]

All subjective, I don't think that the old models are better quality but the new ones trade axes for spears. maybe you like that? if you have a bunch then maybe you don't.

loss of wings, some don't like this, some like that the wings are gone.

loss of power fist?

lack of details on the body, on the legs, lack of head variety. 

units size, you are now paying the same if not more for 3 models over 5.

when something is refreshed you kinda expect it to be an upgrade over the old, this isn't that.

[Jukkiz]

ah, here we go again.

Any news about other weapon options`?

[Mogger351]

 

 

Before you took units of 5 or 10. There was a duplicate of each torso.

Now you take units of 3 or 6. Again, there are duplicates. Nothing has changed here, the unit is simply smaller.

 

We knew it would be ahead of time too. 

 

There is less helmets variety but the bare heads are objectively better, and the models in general have better poses and proportions. 

 

I'm looking at the original Sanguinary guard a lot these last few days due to the complaints. I think an element of nostalgia is at play - the old kit is not some example of perfected artistic expression. The bolters on the wrist are far too big, some of the leg poses look like they've been riding a horse a bit too long, and the proportions are way off as is common with the older kits.

I think beyond that people are forgetting they have no innate entitlement to have loads of spares or interchangeable components.

 

It's a choice GW have made to not have them designed that way, the unit will still build a legal squad with a few flavour pieces/options. The fact they can't have their bodies swapped isn't objectively a downgrade.

[ThaneOfTas]

 

I think beyond that people are forgetting they have no innate entitlement to have loads of spares or interchangeable components.

 

It's a choice GW have made to not have them designed that way, the unit will still build a legal squad with a few flavour pieces/options. The fact they can't have their bodies swapped isn't objectively a downgrade.

Maybe if you only view them as game pieces rather than as a collectable modelling product that can be used for a game.

[Orion]

 

 

Before you took units of 5 or 10. There was a duplicate of each torso.

Now you take units of 3 or 6. Again, there are duplicates. Nothing has changed here, the unit is simply smaller.

 

We knew it would be ahead of time too. 

 

There is less helmets variety but the bare heads are objectively better, and the models in general have better poses and proportions. 

 

I'm looking at the original Sanguinary guard a lot these last few days due to the complaints. I think an element of nostalgia is at play - the old kit is not some example of perfected artistic expression. The bolters on the wrist are far too big, some of the leg poses look like they've been riding a horse a bit too long, and the proportions are way off as is common with the older kits.

 

Nothing has changed? Bro, there is no variety in armour at all. What is this mental gymnastics?

Give you an example: 
You want a squad of 6 with helmets and spears? You'll have 3 pairs of identical models. 
With the old Sang guard you can have a squad of 10 where every single model has a different helmet.

And you're telling me nothing has changed?

 

 

Proportions should be a given. Taking away XYZ then saying, "yeah, but proportions" isn't good enough.

And on top of that I don't even think half of the poses are that great.

Floaty ass mofos flailing their arms around:

 

 

 

I think beyond that people are forgetting they have no innate entitlement to have loads of spares or interchangeable components.

 

It's a choice GW have made to not have them designed that way, the unit will still build a legal squad with a few flavour pieces/options. The fact they can't have their bodies swapped isn't objectively a downgrade.

 

As stated before. I'm not even necessarily advocating for spares, but at least variety. Taking out two models from the squad, charging more, and only sculpting one set of armour.

No one is entitled to anything, but that's a dumb argument.

[sbarnby71]

Unfortunately what GW seems to be doing is what has been happening for years in parts of the food industry, and especially in the coffee side of things, the more choice you give a human, the more indecision we make, too much choice overwhelms us and slows us down.  Now this is totally wrong in our hobby, we want as much variety as we can get for our hard earned money we give to GW.

 

 I work for a company that creates CAD and similar for areo & auto industries and the massive push is to create generic items that can be re-used in multiple places, so take the complexity and one-off usage away and increase profits and productivity.  This is the way all things seem to be going in all industries and maybe GW have said we know we will lose out to 3D printed specific parts, so we churn out generic items and not waste time and money on trying to compete.  Here is the base items, you go add the bling.

[TheArtilleryman]

 

 

Whilst others can't accept that some of us are legitimately happy with the release. It just feels weird.

 

But anyway. Comparison image side by side of the two sets, I went for the image of 3 of the originals purely for parity in that regards. I also went for the box art image of the new ones because there is parity in loadout there with helmets, the banner and multiple swords). I absolutely would have liked the box to still be 5 (why did sword brethren get to stay at 5 I wonder).

 

Anyway.

 

 

Poses: interesting the ones on the right are fairly similar tbh. The new ones have better posing overall, but I think it's pretty close. The ones that are similar (far right), the new ones sword angle needs adjusting a little, if the angle was a little more upright it would look like a downward slice, the bodies momentum on the newer one is better though. Otherwise, I'd say new ones generally have slightly better movement (though I think SOME of that is the choices of legs with bodies on the old ones there).

 

Chapter shoulder pads: the new ones are better.

"company" shoulder pads: the new ones seem to be unadorned, so old ones are arguably better there.

 

Leg design: pretty much par for the course IMO. BUT some blood drops or a winged blood drop on at least one of the new ones would be nice. I'm hoping that the front greaves are actually changeable, if so casting the captain one will be viable to get a look similar to original model #3

 

tabards: new ones are cool, I love the loin cloth style for blood angels, and these are nice.

 

torsos: honestly, the new designs are broadly better IMO, and more like the art depictions of them. That said, I don't think the random cables do them any favours and they may be worth removing...

 

arm armour: new ones are more intricately detailed. So thats better

 

Guns: new ones are probably better looking I think. Even the inferno pistol now I've been reminded how huge and unwieldy the old one looked on a wrist mount.

 

Melee weapons: I prefer the new ones, I can absolutely understand people liking the old ones (or the axes, though to me they always felt too blunt a weapon for the sanguinary guard so i didnt use them). Spears are much cooler and more unique than axes though. Little sad to lose power fists as an option by the look of it!

 

Jump packs: I like the new ones, I wont deny that the old ones were super distinctive though and I can absolutely understand why people would be sad. Honestly looking at the new ones, I think if you had the old jump packs lying around, you could just straight up use those relatively problem free if you're so inclined. Still won't deny its a downgrade for those that want them though.

 

deathmasks: controvertial, but I think the new ones look miles better when compared side by side.

 

bare heads: new ones look exceptionally nice, old ones were good for their time though.

 

banner: the old ones had the chapter banner. That was AWESOME. The new ones have a banner that makes more sense for jump troops. I think the new ones are technically better but I love the old banner and will be sad to see it go... probably something to put on a bladeguard ancient or something instead maybe?

 

I honestly think the new ones are better overall after looking at them side by side, but i do still have little niggles I'd like to change. To me they LOOK like sanguinary guard still thanks to the armour designs, and as a fairly proficient sculpter and being more than capable of casting the odd little adornment, I feel I can do things like add wings to one of the chest pieces, or remove the cables on the torsos and replace with obliques competantly. The fact I feel the need to do so shows that I don't think the new ones are perfect BUT they're a solid update for me.

I am confident the 3rd party market will provide alternative jump packs and melee weapons and probably helmets REAL fast. Most of the ones I've seen so far didn't look better to me, but I'm sure some will come.

 

EDIT:

 

Something the new ones would have benefitted from, is three distinct torsos and 3 distinct death masks. Even that alone would have likely had people liking them more I suspect (and I do think had they had winged jump packs a lot more people would have just liked them immediately too - I even saw someone saying an intercessor sergeant with the old backpack looked better than the new set... which is dumb when it didn't have single piece of the artificer armour in sight).

Thanks for posting them side by side - that’s really helpful.

 

Personally I think if you swapped the helmets for the old ones and used the feathered shoulder pads from the old kit they would look decent. 

[Orange Knight]

I do agree that they should have more helmet variety. For example, the new Sternguard kit had a decent selection of helmets and heads.

 

Perhaps GW is going for a different theme with this kit. These aren't old suits, cobbled together from cannibalised bits and pieces of historic suits.