Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[phandaal]

 

 

This has been the supposed GW position for a long long time. I've always hated it.

 

That is what I hear now, but it is not something I remember people talking about until very recently. For example, when Necrons got their fluff changed to have C'tan stuck in Pokeballs, I do not recall people leaning on "nothing is canon" to justify it. People either liked it or they disliked it, but it was a change from something that had been canon.

 

Nowadays it seems like we have to undermine the idea of canon itself. Instead of saying the canon changed, we say there never really was a canon in the first place. That seems like something modern as opposed to something driven by nostalgia.

 

Edited August 14 by phandaal

[SvenIronhand]

 

 

That is what I hear now, but it is not something I remember people talking about until very recently. For example, when Necrons got their fluff changed to have C'tan stuck in Pokeballs, I do not recall people leaning on "nothing is canon" to justify it. People either liked it or they disliked it, but it was a change from something that had been canon.

 

Nowadays it seems like we have to undermine the idea of canon itself. Instead of saying the canon changed, we say there never really was a canon in the first place. That seems like something modern as opposed to something driven by nostalgia.

 

It's been less known.

[Indy Techwisp]

 

 

That is what I hear now, but it is not something I remember people talking about until very recently. For example, when Necrons got their fluff changed to have C'tan stuck in Pokeballs, I do not recall people leaning on "nothing is canon" to justify it. People either liked it or they disliked it, but it was a change from something that had been canon.

 

Nowadays it seems like we have to undermine the idea of canon itself. Instead of saying the canon changed, we say there never really was a canon in the first place. That seems like something modern as opposed to something driven by nostalgia.

 

 

Necrons got their fluff changed like 5 different times, all of them being major lore changes.
Almost no-one complained.

 

But Space Marines have their Lore adjusted once and suddenly lots of people are up in arms.

Seems very telling to me.

[Alternis]

 

 

Necrons got their fluff changed like 5 different times, all of them being major lore changes.
Almost no-one complained.

 

But Space Marines have their Lore adjusted once and suddenly lots of people are up in arms.

Seems very telling to me.

Well of course.

 

everyone wants the loyalists to win 

 

no one wants Angron to be the personal punching bag of every other Primarch *cough sanguiniusandlion cough* but here we are. 
 

Lore wise I do think we are moving in a positive direction, but it also helps someone like me predict some sort of direction with future events, GW is all about trends this edition, we see it with everything they release, and it’s why I can confidently say Dorn and Sanguinius are coming back after Leman Russ is released this edition

Edited August 14 by Alternis

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

It was never ‘good’ lore. 
 

it was full of loop holes, inconsistencies, and too many discrepancies on timeline. 
 

Gw have been working very hard recently on tidying this up (the new Seige of Terra stuff was brilliant in this, as was the dawn of fire and most books regarding Guilliman’s actions in recent times as well as the Ordo’s Chronos) 

Things make more sense now, and we have a much better and clearer idea of what’s going on now and what went on back then. 
 

The issue is, there’s a lot of nostalgia players who loved the mysticism the lack of concrete evidence and everything was just head canon, whatever you believed it to be, and that’s completely 100% ok. 
But the storyline was getting stagnant, and needed to be advanced forward and the only way they could do that, is to tidy up all the inconsistencies.

Idk if I like knowing what happened in the in universe past tbh.

i was excited when the HH books started but now I feel like it should have remained a time of myth shrouded in the fog of mystery.

The inconsistencies in the lore also just felt…right for the setting.

[phandaal]

 

 

Necrons got their fluff changed like 5 different times, all of them being major lore changes.
Almost no-one complained.

 

But Space Marines have their Lore adjusted once and suddenly lots of people are up in arms.

Seems very telling to me.

 

People always complain to some degree, because nothing is ever universally popular. What I am talking about is how people discuss the changes - seems like "everything is unreliable" gets brought up a lot nowadays, whereas people used to acknowledge that something had in fact changed whether they loved it or hated it.

 

[Toxichobbit]

 

 

Necrons got their fluff changed like 5 different times, all of them being major lore changes.
Almost no-one complained.

 

But Space Marines have their Lore adjusted once and suddenly lots of people are up in arms.

Seems very telling to me.

 

You're wrong. The Necron lore change in 5th was a show. Lots and lots of complaining. Even now there's still some holdouts complaining about "Newcrons". 

[Alternis]

 

Idk if I like knowing what happened in the in universe past tbh.

i was excited when the HH books started but now I feel like it should have remained a time of myth shrouded in the fog of mystery.

The inconsistencies in the lore also just felt…right for the setting.

I think this is one of those “it’s a matter of perspective” things. 
 

some people want to know, some people don’t. 
 

I for one, want to know everything. 
what is the emperor exactly? 
what are the twin deities over Baal? 
exactly what are the Primarchs? 
what is the black rage exactly past being a Khornate based infection 

What’s going on with Russ looking for the eldar goddess Isha in the eye of terror? 
who is Cypher?

I just want to know it all! All the unanswered questions!

Edited August 14 by Alternis

[Scribe]

 

Lore wise I do think we are moving in a positive direction,

 

We arent. Havent been since Primaris/Cawl/Rob.

 

Its going to be the ruin of 40K when the metaplot goes belly up.

[DemonGSides]

 

The point being made by the previous poster is that when you paint up JAIs as BA they don’t have fancy armor unless you put 3d printed or first born bits on them.

 

it didn’t make sense that FBDC had so much going on, on their armor, when BA TACs didn’t have remotely that much, and any unit that only had generic kits had absolutely no BA ornamentation to the armor, so a unit falling to the BR magically having way more ornate armor seems kinda silly.

 

i get both sides, in the case of FBDC it was representative of what standard BA armor would actually look like. (Though largely used mine as an upgrade sprue.)

 

and the bit claiming people don’t know what it means to be an artisan or how important it is to the lore, is just self serving BS(I’d love to say more but the mods have been bam happy lately.) literally everyone on the planet will have varying opinions on what it means to be an artisan and what artistry means, and just because some people’s opinions there vary quite a bit from yours doesn’t make yours more correct, or theirs less correct.

 

i can’t recall any official art work that depicts regular marines (non-veterans/officers) that had remotely the same level of decoration and ornamentation as the DC kit.

 

edit 

also these kits are supposed to serve for use for all the successor chapters as well. Last I checked being an artisan wasn’t nearly as important for the flesh tearers as it is for the BA.

 

Blindhamster is right, the lore about BA being artists, says nothing about ALL or even most of their art being related to their wargear.
for my personal successor the artistry is largely kept away from their weapons/armor, and done as separate works of art, much of which is given to the planetary population during Sanguinala.

 

 

Your personal successors lore is your choice.

 

The kits are made as Blood Angels stuff. How you use them is up to you.

 

Literally look at any art representing even heresy Blood Angels and you'll see a whole lot of bling.

 

I think we are done. 

Edited August 14 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I think this is one of those “it’s a matter of perspective” things. 
 

some people want to know, some people don’t. 
 

I for one, want to know everything. 
what is the emperor exactly? 
what are the twin deities over Baal? 
exactly what are the Primarchs? 
what is the black rage exactly past being a Khornate based infection 

What’s going on with lion looking for the eldar goddess Isha in the eye of terror? 
who is Cypher?

I just want to know it all! All the unanswered questions!

Best way for me to sum things up is I feel like the world is better with some mystery in it.

like I really hope atlantis was real, and big foot and other cryptids, but I also don’t know if i want it proven definitively any of those things are/were real.

[Alternis]

 

 

We arent. Havent been since Primaris/Cawl/Rob.

 

Its going to be the ruin of 40K when the metaplot goes belly up.

Well, I have a personal theory about this, but I’m not ready to put my cards on the table till emperors children release, and I know more about how GW plan to further the story re Slaanesh (the most impossible section of lore they can’t write for because it makes the setting too age inappropriate) 

 

but, what I will say is, Vashtorr seemingly came out of nowhere and now the storyline seems to be following his rise to godhood, and he’s winning every achievement he’s setting out for.

 

Remember what happened to Slaanesh in AoS? I think we’ll see something similar, with Vashtorr taking their spot, and Perturabo and Iron warriors replacing the emperors children on that spot. 
 

it’s easier writing for GW as Slaanesh has been a problem for them for a long time trying to make that happen.

[Toxichobbit]

 

Well, I have a personal theory about this, but I’m not ready to put my cards on the table till emperors children release, and I know more about how GW plan to further the story re Slaanesh (the most impossible section of lore they can’t write for because it makes the setting too age inappropriate) 

 

but, what I will say is, Vashtorr seemingly came out of nowhere and now the storyline seems to be following his rise to godhood, and he’s winning every achievement he’s setting out for.

 

Remember what happened to Slaanesh in AoS? I think we’ll see something similar, with Vashtorr taking their spot, and Perturabo and Iron warriors replacing the emperors children on that spot. 
 

it’s easier writing for GW as Slaanesh has been a problem for them for a long time trying to make that happen.

 

Slannesh is not missing from AoS though. He's in a prison, sure, but he's still talked about as one of the Pantheon in his usual place, after Nurgle but before The Horned Rat. The lore around him talks about his followers building up to breaking him free again. Furthermore, the Hedonites of Slannesh got a very big update a while ago. What you think is going to happen in 40k, with Vashtorr taking Slannesh's place is demonstrably not what has happened in AoS. 

[DemonGSides]

 

Remember what happened to Slaanesh in AoS?

 

They got a grip of dope greater demons and some legitimately uncomfortable looking (in a good way) mortal followers.  Slaanesh seems well supported in AoS. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

Can we save the "dead primarchs aren't dead because I love mine so much and painted my marines red" for a different thread? This thread is about grown men arguing about nipples and wings on their toy soldiers.

[Alternis]

Exactly why I’m waiting to see what happens on EC release. 
 

it will give me a clear idea, but Vashtor is a threat we can’t ignore, he’s also way easier to bargain with overall compared to the pantheon lol

 

Can we save the "dead primarchs aren't dead because I love mine so much and painted my marines red" for a different thread? This thread is about grown men arguing about nipples and wings on their toy soldiers.

I’m not fussed about the nipples much. 
 

(When was the last time you thought about the Roman Empire???) 

 

The wings definitely bother me though

[Alternis]

 

it’s like Divine Providence, we were discussing it, and it comes lol

[Nephaston]

 

Can we save the "dead primarchs aren't dead because I love mine so much and painted my marines red" for a different thread? This thread is about grown men arguing about nipples and wings on their toy soldiers.

All I know is MY opinion on the topic is correct, and YOUR opinion is incorrect, and I will call you a poopoo head for disagreeing with me.

[Blindhamster]

 

And its very much discussed at length, its because they seem to feel the need to be 'clean' and pretty and overdone because ever since Sangi met them the BA have either gone insane (cough fleshtearers cough) or are still desperately scrubbing at bloodstains only they can see.

 

Actually blood angels turn to art as a means of coping with the thirst, learning peace and control. Where other chapters go straight to combat training, one of the first steps on blood angel neophytes path to full brother, is.. art, because they lack any real self control initially due to the power of the thirst.

 

There is definitely the angle of appearing as exemplars of the imperium to cover up their "dark secret" too. But the primary motivation for all the art (now, at least from as early as when the novel "Dante" was written) is the control/calm front.

 

 

I know fluff doesn't hold alot of weight these days

Disagree here. I've been a blood angel fan since I was about 9 lol. I'm getting dangerously close to 37 at this point, the thing that originally drew me to them was they were red (plus the awesome 2nd ed boxed set art), but the thing that kept me with them almost exclusively for the entirety of my time in the hobby, is their lore.

 

 

Its also why I think folks are missing the point of fancy Death Company.

They shouldn't be fancier. Lore wise they wear their own wargear, but have it painted black as a sign of mourning of the lost. More recent Horus Heresy lore made it a thing that was done even before the actual death company existed in the form theyd have post heresy. But regardless. Each marine should only be as fancy as their age/rank/personal preferences before they fell would dictate.

 

 

But I think, and I don't mean to be mean, some folks want things to be very surface level (ironically).

Disagree again here, but to each their own.

 

Regardless of my responses, I appreciate the well thought out post @StrangerOrders

[DemonGSides]

 

They shouldn't be fancier.

 

No one is asking for DC to be fancier than what they consider a normal BA.  Just to be as fancy, since it's the armor they have always had.

 

But Normal BA do not look like a bog standard space marine from one of a thousand "normal" chapters, as you state and I have stated much to certain posters inability to grasp, art and artifice are foundational to the blood angels as that's how they practice their mindfulness.

 

Having a few relatively unadorned DC would make sense; there's no guarantee of timelines to falling to the Rage, so younger BA could be susceptible.  But the entire squad shouldn't just be "Black painted intercessors."

 

The problem is that the new kit has a few waist attachments and not much else. The shoulder pads help, but they had a lot more personality before.

[HeadlessCross]

 

My complaint isn't that they aren't artisanal, this is my complaint:

The face that's supposed to be a death mask is weird and soft looking with a wide flat nose while the death mask of the old kit is the sharp and stern looking visage of Sanguinius. I can't even tell who that's supposed to be on the new version. Everything about it feels off. It's like some angry guy doing the Zoolander pout.

All that is still better than the mini banner that says "Angels" in case we forgot what army we were playing against. 

[Blindhamster]

 

No one is asking for DC to be fancier than what they consider a normal BA.  Just to be as fancy, since it's the armor they have always had.

 

Strangers post literally had a section precisely about decking out DC in fancier gear in universe. It was a response to their post, not one of yours.

 

  

 

But Normal BA do not look like a bog standard space marine from one of a thousand "normal" chapters, as you state and I have stated much to certain posters inability to grasp, art and artifice are foundational to the blood angels as that's how they practice their mindfulness.

 

Actually, normal BA don't look fancier than other marines from many other chapters. Most chapters have a level of artifice and design to the armour in art, but also typically these things are on a small enough scale that for 32mm models you're going to have what looks like fancy golden leaf scrollwork. If you really want to make blood angels look fancy a lot of it should be in the paint job, rather than oversized garish extra bits. Sure some will have larger more elaborate details, but thats more often than not the veterans and higher ranking individuals.

 

I think we both agree that blood angels should look good, we just disagree a bit on precisely what counts as good on 32mm models and how best to execute it. For me I think a combination of nice transfers and some free hand will give a more ascetically appealling look for most blood angels, pick out the odd model to get something more elaborate within tactical squads (embossed shoulder pad(s), maybe a knee detail, or even a greave detail), but I'd absolutely avoid every model looking like a veteran from releases 15 years ago. I understand your preference for the reverse, and am sorry this release hasn't sat well with you because you'd prefer more (what I'd call) over the top elaborate details. Hopefully we'll see another release in the near future that gives you more of the sort of thing you're looking for.

Edited August 14 by Blindhamster

[HeadlessCross]

 

Maybe I am just naive for liking lore justifications but... DA hoarding awesome weapons and not letting anyone else touch their fancy junk is about as much a part of their personality as being knights and paranoid.

 

These are the people that fought an internal civil war before the Heresy because they came in Second in a race no one else knew about.

 

Other chapters have Vanguard Veterans, which are, and again forgive me for using lore as a justification. First Company Vetetans.

 

Sanguinary Guard are functionally First Company veterans with a fancier inheritance and a Forgeworld that makes their special stuff at gunpoint. 

 

And both only begrudgingly share their stuff for influence points.

 

I know 40k has slowly turned into 'competitive silliness first and lets make everything as boring and balanced as possible' but as a setting it would be bizarre if the guys that Nepo-babied their way into the lion's share of their legion's inheritance wouldn't use it accordingly.

 

Homogenizing everything to cater to hypercompetitive folks that would be deep down happier playing 20d chess is good for some but not for me.

 

I know GW can retcon everything into apples flying up instead of falling when dropped, but I actually rather enjoy Chapter's having logical limitations within the setting's conceits. 

Me when I have to defend GW making the same codex with minor tweaks to get more money:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DaOgZwk9rN8&pp=ygUQbWFsaWJ1IHN0YWN5IGhhdA%3D%3D

[Toxichobbit]

 

All that is still better than the mini banner that says "Angels" in case we forgot what army we were playing against. 

 

You could, you know, just paint a different word on there. GW aren't going to come around to your house and give you the tanning of your life if you paint your minis differently.

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

You could, you know, just paint a different word on there. GW aren't going to come around to your house and give you the tanning of your life if you paint your minis differently.

Banners look silly on the head regardless though. The old kit was a failure for including that head alone.