Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

 

BA Tac's had bespoke elements to reflect the 'bling' of the BA. Primaris pushed that Tacti-cool look.

 

BT/Blade Guard returned us to the proper 40K Gothic vibe.

 

Its not a discussion, its fact.

This cannot be true without you simultaneously saying that the standard tactical squad is then also not Gothic. You have to discount more than half the classic marine range for this to fit. Or what is it the stumpy proportions of the older kits that give them a free pass?

 

Not every classic marine kit has a flowing robe, barroque armor designs. Where do those fit? When primaris came, the intercessors were an update to the tactical kit. Pointing out they were less gothic than specialized or chapter bespoke units isn't the slam dunk you think it is. The tactical squad is also less gothic than those.

[Scribe]

We arent going to agree dude. 

[Cenobite Terminator]

This thread is so entertaining… I keep coming back to see the next zinger.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

We arent going to agree dude. 

Naturally, but there's merit in pointing out the flaws of your argument for the benefit of other readers all the same.

[Scribe]

 

Naturally, but there's merit in pointing out the flaws of your argument for the benefit of other readers all the same.

 

They are not flaws.

 

First of all, this is a BA thread.

Second of all, Primaris absolutely shifted the aesthetic of the basic Marine profile.

Third, the Tactical (Squat) Box vs whatever the hell Tactical Primaris are called demonstrate that even at the most basic level, there is a shift.

Fourth, the shift is even more pronounced between BA Tactical Box (hell, Space Wolves?) and the base Primaris CAD Design.

Fifth, you can even see this in a unit that was bespoke, with the difference between the original SG, and the new SG. Just look at the chest, and upper leg armour.

Sixth, the Blade Guard and BT release was the 'rebirth' of the Gothic, 40K aesthetic, this is known.

 

You can quibble over how much of a shift happened, but it happened, and everyone with eyes can see it.

[Marshal Reinhard]

A failed BA update does not equate a shift.

 

The perfect Templar update, and the peak gothic of the DA inner circle companions disprove it.

 

I won't bother go over why comparing bespoke units with non bespoke ones are bull:cuss: again.

[DemonGSides]

 

A failed BA update does not equate a shift.

 

The perfect Templar update, and the peak gothic of the DA inner circle companions disprove it.

 

I won't bother go over why comparing bespoke units with non bespoke ones are bull:cuss: again.

 

I think you're misunderstanding.

 

There is less personality in the Intercessor kit than in the tactical kit; there's no banners, every helmet is exactly the same or with the barest of minor differences, a lot of the bits have been reduced or streamlined.  There was definitely a shift towards more cookie cutter visuals for baseline Primaris.

 

Blade guard and BT began bringing that same type of warrior monk aesthetic that a lot of people liked about Space Marines (and was visible in a wide variety of kits) back.  BT and DA had a lot of great iconography and bits in their troop kits to keep that same flavor going. Hell, even the new Stern guard were bringing that same gothic-ness to "regular" space Marines as well. 

 

BA are getting one bespoke troop kits that has given up a lot of that same flavor that was coming back. SG are definitely a step towards more gothic style Marines, but they aren't really that great compared to the older gothic style, and many people believe GW should lean more towards that style.  Their other kit is just the same assault intercessors that have been available for 4 years, just painted black and with a couple of belt doodads.  So it feels like they were given the short shrift of lacking that same bespoke baroque and gothic armor when it's just "stuff you already had, and it wasn't too like the old stuff", when people wanted an upscaled FBDC kit, basically.

Edited August 15 by DemonGSides

[Scribe]

 

The perfect Templar update, and the peak gothic of the DA inner circle companions disprove it.

 

No, they prove that the shift happened, and was then recalibrated due to the fans of 40K complaining about it. 

[Blindhamster]

To be fair, they did tone back the gothic look when they moved to primaris, more than that, they reduced the cluttered look though.

 

I think ascribing “tacti-cool” to primaris is wrong, ascribing it to Phobos units is probably fair (as fair as it is to assign that term to scouts at least).

 

even with the DA and BT releases, the overall clutter on models was reduced, whilst still maintaining individuality for those units. The thing that makes those releases “feel” more gothic is their stronger reliance on robes and the like, relative to other chapters. Similarly, space wolves will lean heavily into the wolf pelts for at least a wolf guard style unit (I’m pretty sure space wolves will get at least two unique units and a similar number of new character sculpts to dark angels or black templars - which is fewer character sculpts than blood angels but more units). 
 

the scaled back look appeals to some (including Jes Godwyn himself, who I remember telling me at Warhammer fest one year, felt they’d gone too far with extra details on marine kits), but not to others. No matter what, you aren’t going to please both, both groups want new kits,  but the level of visual clutter desired varies from group to group and an inherent flaw of primaris is that it’s harder (not impossible) to mix and match units outside of a few specific combos (both versions of assault intercessors arms are interchangeable, assault intercessor and intercessor torsos and legs are interchangeable and can be mixed with Templar ones, etc)

 

I think this release was solid, definitely not a failure. But it definitely wasn’t a triumph either. I didn’t have any straight up misses, but I did have issues with a number of things. I still came out “better” than some though I guess. The sad thing is we will likely have to wait a decade or so before there is a chance of any other new blood angel units. So it is what it is.

 

for me the bigger sad thing, is threads like this and a few others lately suck all the fun out of the release for me, my excitement levels dwindle because I’m aware that if I post work in progress shots etc, a sizeable chunk of the community I love just won’t be interested or care, and part of the fun used to be sharing progress on projects. I’ll get over that though

[Scribe]

 

To be fair, they did tone back the gothic look when they moved to primaris, more than that, they reduced the cluttered look though.

 

 

the scaled back look appeals to some (including Jes Godwyn himself, who I remember telling me at Warhammer fest one year, felt they’d gone too far with extra details on marine kits), but not to others.

 

This is all I'm saying. A shift happened. Good, bad, indifferent, it happened.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

 

I think you're misunderstanding.

 

There is less personality in the Intercessor kit than in the tactical kit; there's no banners, every helmet is exactly the same or with the barest of minor differences, a lot of the bits have been reduced or streamlined.  There was definitely a shift towards more cookie cutter visuals for baseline Primaris.

 

Blade guard and BT began bringing that same type of warrior monk aesthetic that a lot of people liked about Space Marines (and was visible in a wide variety of kits) back.  BT and DA had a lot of great iconography and bits in their troop kits to keep that same flavor going.

 

BA are getting one bespoke troop kits that has given up a lot of that same flavor that was coming back. SG are definitely a step towards more gothic style Marines, but they aren't really that great compared to the older gothic style, and many people believe GW should lean more towards that style.  Their other kit is just the same assault intercessors that have been available for 4 years, just painted black and with a couple of belt doodads.  So it feels like they were given the short shrift of lacking that same bespoke baroque and gothic armor when it's just "stuff you already had, and it wasn't too like the old stuff", when people wanted an upscaled FBDC kit, basically.

I've never argued that the BA update hasn't been somewhat lacking. But that means its a lacklustre BA update. I truly feel you on that. At least most of (virtually all of them in my opinion) characters (thinking of Mephiston as well here who's a few years old now, admittedly) has been great.

[DemonGSides]

 

I've never argued that the BA update hasn't been somewhat lacking. But that means its a lacklustre BA update. I truly feel you on that. At least most of (virtually all of them in my opinion) characters (thinking of Mephiston as well here who's a few years old now, admittedly) has been great.

 

Sure, literally no one is arguing any of that. Just that a shift did occur, and that they have been shifting back some over the previous few years from the HARD shift that initial primaris wave was.

 

A lackluster BA update is bad news. It means that they're either giving up the original shift back to gothic style, or they've begun to miss the plot on what that style is and means to a wide section of the fandom.

 

Some people like reserved Marine, some like dudes who look like they might have a problem walking around. The former group has been eating well for years and years and years. The latter group was finally starting to feel less hungry again, but this most recent reveal has left a bad taste in their mouths.

[Alternis]

 

This thread is so entertaining… I keep coming back to see the next zinger.

I keep coming back and my reaction is 

[lansalt]

 

It means that they're either giving up the original shift back to gothic style, or they've begun to miss the plot on what that style is

It's also possible that these new BA models were actually early primaris designs, but that have not been released until now. IIRC that happened with Desolators.

Anyway, there has been a clear drop in the quality of SM-related sculpts. And I'm not talking about primaris aesthetic changes or primaris themselves, but basic stuff that should have been stoppped by a proper art director before it was released: Bad poses, bad proportions, bad filigrees, bad iconography... It's like they give the work to sloppy interns that want to work in AoS or something. 

My "favourite" example, besides the terrible Age of Darkness plastic praetors,  is the crappy Lieutenant Titus mini. What a waste of a well know character and pretty much a "brand ambassador" that deserved a better effort.

 

[Scribe]

 

It's also possible that these new BA models were actually early primaris designs, but that have not been released until now. IIRC that happened with Desolators.

Anyway, there has been a clear drop in the quality of SM-related sculpts. And I'm not talking about primaris aesthetic changes or primaris themselves, but basic stuff that should have been stoppped by a proper art director before it was released: Bad poses, bad proportions, bad filigrees, bad iconography... It's like they give the work to sloppy interns that want to work in AoS or something. 

My "favourite" example, besides the terrible Age of Darkness plastic praetors,  is the crappy Lieutenant Titus mini. What a waste of a well know character and pretty much a "brand ambassador" that deserved a better effort.

 

 

I mean this could be proven with the sprue date? Is that still a thing? Or maybe they were 'sculpted' in CAD early on, and advances didnt make it to the files.

[Wispy]

Blindhamster's notion on Jes Goodwin's desire to reign in oversaturated details on Marines is a good point. I do think this was entirely intentional initative to save the really over the top details for HQs... I don't agree with it, I like my crazy blinged out Marines, but I see where it's coming from.

Edited August 16 by Wispy

[NiftyVT]

 

I hated the huge winged shoulderpad (I assume you mean the one that had massive feather design all over it). I found it to be too much of a departure from the marine silhouette. In addition, I found it garish and ugly. I believe blood angels should look fancy and have fine details, but not things that go quite that far. So it was an ugly piece I used on exactly one unit of sanguinary guard and never again.

 

As for the wings themselves. I didn't hate them, but I never particularly liked them either. They just seemed bulky and awkward for a combat unit and very impractical. More importantly, they looked off when beside Dante. The new Sanguinary Guard models are actually much closer to the classic 4th ed version of "Dantes Honour Guard". Which was a converted honour guard squad all in gold with some muscle armour details to emulate Dante/Tycho armour designs.

 

 

I didnt like the sang guard wings and left them off mine and they look fantastic with out them. I like the old models but I also like the new ones. I slightly convert most of my minis and these new sang guard will be no different. I will spice them up a bit. . .or a lot. . . or go heavy grim dark. . .have to see what I feel like when I sit down and build.

 

And if we are talking old school "Honor Guard" here are some I dug out of an old plastic (with red foam) GW case labeled "Old BA" for a quick photo. They are standard tactical marines with gold painted helmets with some metal arms and swords that I bits ordered direct from GW (back when bits from GW were a thing). There were no "Honor Guard" models, you had to make them yourself.  I think these are well over 20 years old. Oh, and no jump pack because Rhino Rush!  And also some old metal veterans in the background that I am repainting for 30k. 

 

[Blindhamster]

Those look like third Ed space marines. There was an honour guard set for blood angels released in 3rd Ed too:

glorious boxed set (that I painted terribly from what I remember)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I didnt like the sang guard wings and left them off mine and they look fantastic with out them. I like the old models but I also like the new ones. I slightly convert most of my minis and these new sang guard will be no different. I will spice them up a bit. . .or a lot. . . or go heavy grim dark. . .have to see what I feel like when I sit down and build.

 

And if we are talking old school "Honor Guard" here are some I dug out of an old plastic (with red foam) GW case labeled "Old BA" for a quick photo. They are standard tactical marines with gold painted helmets with some metal arms and swords that I bits ordered direct from GW (back when bits from GW were a thing). There were no "Honor Guard" models, you had to make them yourself.  I think these are well over 20 years old. Oh, and no jump pack because Rhino Rush!  And also some old metal veterans in the background that I am repainting for 30k. 

 

In AoD there was no honor guard datasheet iirc, and by the 3rd Ed supplement there definitely was an honor guard kit. It included a techmarine lol.

 

unless honor guard was a generic SM option?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A funny I found

 

 

[Wispy]

Well this is much better than my lame Photoshop. See, this is what I'm talking about, there's a lot to work with if you're accustomed to kitbashing.

 

A classic box of Sanguinary Guard equips 1.66 boxes of the new guys. Other bits for variety. Use the 6th guy with no wings to build a Jump Pack captain.

Edited August 16 by Wispy

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

Blindhamster's notion on Jes Goodwin's desire to reign in oversaturated details on Marines is a good point. I do think this was entirely intentional initative to save the really over the top details for HQs... I don't agree with it, I like my crazy blinged out Marines, but I see where it's coming from.

 

Jes has articulated that notion a few times. Words to the effect of feeling like the captain models were starting to look like Christmas trees. It's why they introduced the Lieutenants with practically zero flair, just the (painted) multi-stripe on the helmet of a model that otherwise looked like a typical Sergeant.

 

I think it was during the Shadowspear episode of Voxcast that he mentioned they approached the initial Primaris wave as being the plain rank and file who were not yet weathered veterans with honors and trophies, but that those would be coming eventually (here he was no doubt alluding to the contents of Indomitus and later releases).

[Cenobite Terminator]

 

 

They are not flaws.

 

First of all, this is a BA thread.

Second of all, Primaris absolutely shifted the aesthetic of the basic Marine profile.

Third, the Tactical (Squat) Box vs whatever the hell Tactical Primaris are called demonstrate that even at the most basic level, there is a shift.

Fourth, the shift is even more pronounced between BA Tactical Box (hell, Space Wolves?) and the base Primaris CAD Design.

Fifth, you can even see this in a unit that was bespoke, with the difference between the original SG, and the new SG. Just look at the chest, and upper leg armour.

Sixth, the Blade Guard and BT release was the 'rebirth' of the Gothic, 40K aesthetic, this is known.

 

You can quibble over how much of a shift happened, but it happened, and everyone with eyes can see it.

sometimes what is considered a flaw is highly subjective. Personally I don’t consider the Black Rage or the Red Thirst to be flaws. They both add character.

[NiftyVT]

 

Those look like third Ed space marines. There was an honour guard set for blood angels released in 3rd Ed too:

glorious boxed set (that I painted terribly from what I remember)

 

I completly don't remember that honor guard box! But I must have had it because I found the apothecary body (at least i think its that body) in a jumble of my random hobby stuff a few years ago  and painted him up after subbing in some missing arms and a new jump pack. I wonder where the rest of that squad went!

[NiftyVT]

 

In AoD there was no honor guard datasheet iirc, and by the 3rd Ed supplement there definitely was an honor guard kit. It included a techmarine lol.

 

unless honor guard was a generic SM option?

 

Just pulled my 2nd and 3rd edition books off the shelf and can confirm your recollection. Techmarine, Banner and Sanguniary Priest are optional upgrades to the squad.