Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Again I’m not saying that compliant chapters don’t have preferences or areas they excel at above others, I’m saying if Dante and calgar are looking at a battlefield they will likely deploy similar (not exactly the same) numbers of jump troops.

and I know i already had this debate with someone a few weeks ago, but a DC detachment is stupid.

the third detachment should have been a transport and skimmer focused detachment that some how represented OC’d engines, with 1 or 2 strats specifically for DC in each detachment.

 

would have broken any accusation of pigeon holing the chapter, while keeping historically (real world) accurate representation of the chapter as well as a lore accurate representation of the chapter.

[DemonGSides]

It's okay to be wrong and just move on.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

 

 

In addition, our 7th company that is normally a reserve company is entirely Close Support, whereas traditionally in Codex Compliant chapters, it's reserve Battleline.

 

 

The 7th Company is very much reserve battleline/tactical company since introduction of BA OdB in 5th ed. BA Company organisation is the same as smurfs. The main organisational differences are:

- inclusion or bigger inclusion of the Reclusiam and Sanguinary Priesthood in the Chapter council

- Sanguinary Guard which is outside of Company organisation

- occasional DC

All the rest are small tweaks like expanded daily role of Reclusiam and SP compared to other chapters or the extended training from Scout squad through Assault and Devastator to Tactical squad as the end (or whatever they are called now in Primaris Newspeak).

[DemonGSides]

 

 

The 7th Company is very much reserve battleline/tactical company since introduction of BA OdB in 5th ed. BA Company organisation is the same as smurfs. The main organisational differences are:

- inclusion or bigger inclusion of the Reclusiam and Sanguinary Priesthood in the Chapter council

- Sanguinary Guard which is outside of Company organisation

- occasional DC

All the rest are small tweaks like expanded daily role of Reclusiam and SP compared to other chapters or the extended training from Scout squad through Assault and Devastator to Tactical squad as the end (or whatever they are called now in Primaris Newspeak).

 

I went and popped open both my 7th and 8th ed codexes and you're right that the 7th is listed there as battleline, which flies in the face of Lexicanum (Which is normally pretty accurate).

Guess that's one less place to ever bother looking at.  I stand corrected, unless it was in 9th that it got updated again, then it's on me for being right but for unknown reasons LOL

Edited August 22 by DemonGSides

[Blindhamster]

The important thing is.. whilst codex compliant, blood angels always had a bit of lean toward assault marines and a preference for fast and hard close combat.

 

 

[StrangerOrders]

Slightly unrelated, but looking at org chart for a few codexes as part of this and something just clicked.

 

Outside of sheer means to acquire and maintain, is there any actual limitations in the codex on chapter serf and fleet elements?

 

Realized that it seems to imply that a chapter can technically have as large a fleet and mortal army as they can get their mitts on and not technically be in breach of compliance.

 

I mean, the Nemesis have a Gloriana aside from their other ships and we have alot of sources that say those abominations can slug it out with large fleets pretty handily. So that is one Compliant non-progenitor chapter wandering around with a brow-raising element.

 

Btw, does anyone else hope we get a quick blurb on the Red Tear? I'd love to know how on earth the BA managed to lose that thing after the Siege, always struck me as funny that the BA are fleet paupers (they almost literally have a mortgaged battle barge lol). The only other first founding fleet paupers were either attritioned to hell (WS) or Istvaan'd. UM, IF, SW and DA all got to keep their monstrous fleets and unique stuff.

 

Actually... are the BA poor in general? Outside of their surfeit of gold they lather onto the SG, they don't have alot of star forts, a tiny fleet, I don't recall their even having relic assets (relic dreads, esoteric tanks, doomsday relics, etc) when Baal was getting ripped to pieces. Even the Arx does not seem all that of a standout compared to Hera (and that is kind of cheating because the entire hive city is functionally part of the monastary), the Rock, the Fang, the Phalanx, etc.

Edited August 22 by StrangerOrders

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

The important thing is.. whilst codex compliant, blood angels always had a bit of lean toward assault marines and a preference for fast and hard close combat.

 

 

Which we have traditionally done in ways other than just jump infantry.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Unrelated, but looking at org chart for a few codexes as part of this and something just clicked.

 

Outside of sheer means to acquire and maintain, is there any actual limitations in the codex on chapter serf and fleet elements?

 

Realized that it seems to imply that a chapter can technically have as large a fleet and mortal army as they can get their mitts on and not technically be in breach of compliance.

 

I mean, the Nemesis have a Gloriana aside from their other ships and we have alot of sources that say those abominations can slug it out with large fleets pretty handily. So that is one Compliant non-progenitor chapter wandering around with a brow-raising element.

 

Btw, does anyone else hope we get a quick blurb on the Red Tear? I'd love to know how on earth the BA managed to lose that thing after the Siege, always struck me as funny that the BA are fleet paupers (they almost literally have a mortgaged battle barge lol). The only other first founding fleet paupers were either attritioned to hell (WS) or Istvaan'd. UM, IF, SW and DA all got to keep their monstrous fleets and unique stuff.

I don’t think there’s anything in the codex astartes that limits size of a chapter’s serf compliment, but if a chapter had an army of 100k serfs going into battle besides them offensively I think a lot of inquisitors would have some questions.

[Blindhamster]

I think, compared to most first foundings outside of the istavan survivors, blood angels took a particularly large kicking at the siege, and similarly actually broke up what was left into more chapters, wholeheartedly adopting the codex at the time, which means they split their resources more than most. 
 

as of darkness in the blood though, they do have what amounts to a mini astronomicon and an absolutely massive star port on baal that didn’t exist before. 
 

we know from some of the dialogue that the blood angels had the capacity to do this sooner, but didn’t because it felt like hubris to build such large assets - Dante only started it because guilliman literally tells him to do so. Their fleet doesn’t seem particularly small either.

 

they absolutely do have plenty of heresy era relic equipment, but mechanically much of it falls into the generic rules.

 

also, we know the blood angels could have made Baal a paradise at basically any time, they simply didn’t, so they have pretty good tech to turn those irradiated moons and planet into paradise again

 

Which we have traditionally done in ways other than just jump infantry.

Liberation assault force or whatever it’s called doesn’t lean particularly hard into jump infantry. 
 

its only really one of our detachments that does I’d say

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I think, compared to most first foundings outside of the istavan survivors, blood angels took a particularly large kicking at the siege, and similarly actually broke up what was left into more chapters, wholeheartedly adopting the codex at the time, which means they split their resources more than most. 
 

as of darkness in the blood though, they do have what amounts to a mini astronomicon and an absolutely massive star port on baal that didn’t exist before. 
 

we know from some of the dialogue that the blood angels had the capacity to do this sooner, but didn’t because it felt like hubris to build such large assets - Dante only started it because guilliman literally tells him to do so. Their fleet doesn’t seem particularly small either.

 

they absolutely do have plenty of heresy era relic equipment, but mechanically much of it falls into the generic rules.

 

also, we know the blood angels could have made Baal a paradise at basically any time, they simply didn’t, so they have pretty good tech to turn those irradiated moons and planet into paradise again

Liberation assault force or whatever it’s called doesn’t lean particularly hard into jump infantry. 
 

its only really one of our detachments that does I’d say

Not does it try to encourage us to get into melee to make use of its buffs any other way than jump packs.

 

if it had an OC’d engine strat I’d agree with you, but as it is, it indirectly incentives jump infantry since that’s the most effective way to make use of the detachment’s melee buffs.

 

for the cost of a repulsor how many JAIs can you take? Or VGVs? Or SGs?

 

without some benefit to transports or vehicles there’s no reason to take them in this detachment from a gameplay perspective.

 

edit

if we had Libby dreads, launching a unit of aggressors w/captain across the board so they could charge and be hitting at S10 possibly with lance and lethal hits would be great, and super fluffy way to play without having to go all in on jump infantry.

Edited August 22 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

Gravis armor is more of a IF thing, whereas JP and Deep Strike are BA things.

 

Give us back deep striking land raiders, GW, you cowards!  Let me push this venerable piece of machinery out the side of the Battle Barge and ride it straight through the atmosphere.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Gravis armor is more of a IF thing, whereas JP and Deep Strike are BA things.

 

Give us back deep striking land raiders, GW, you cowards!  Let me push this venerable piece of machinery out the side of the Battle Barge and ride it straight through the atmosphere.

Gravis armor is an everyone thing.

thats like saying TDA is an IF thing.

 

our thing is historically go fast, get close and burn, smash, chop the enemy, and it doesn’t matter how you get there.

 

 

[Blindhamster]

 

Not does it try to encourage us to get into melee to make use of its buffs any other way than jump packs.

 

if it had an OC’d engine strat I’d agree with you, but as it is, it indirectly incentives jump infantry since that’s the most effective way to make use of the detachment’s melee buffs.

 

for the cost of a repulsor how many JAIs can you take? Or VGVs? Or SGs?

 

without some benefit to transports or vehicles there’s no reason to take them in this detachment from a gameplay perspective.

 

edit

if we had Libby dreads, launching a unit of aggressors w/captain across the board so they could charge and be hitting at S10 possibly with lance and lethal hits would be great, and super fluffy way to play without having to go all in on jump infantry.

We get strats for advance and charge, advance and shoot, fallback and shoot and fallback and charge.

 

i feel those work well on most units.

[DemonGSides]

 

Gravis armor is an everyone thing.

thats like saying TDA is an IF thing.

 

our thing is historically go fast, get close and burn, smash, chop the enemy, and it doesn’t matter how you get there.

 

Sure, everyone has Gravis, just like everyone has assault squads.  but the conversation being had is about SPECIALTIES, and Gravis (Despite being very cool and very good and something I bring quite often in my BA army, in the exact combo you mentioned in your edit) isn't something that BA specializes in (Though there is that one really cool art with the Aggressor Captain with the tiger skin and blinged out armor), just makes use of.  So I wouldn't expect to see something that's dedicated to Gravis in a BA detatchment, whereas we have the things you would expect; advancing and charging, falling back and charging, and repositioning, mostly around JP units but also with a few general uses sprinkled in.  Which is what we have.  It feels like very fluffy and good detatchments for what is our fluff and without getting a full Codex's 4-6 detatchments.

 

I would also liked to have seen some of our vehicle stuff remain, but I'm not too surprised.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

We get strats for advance and charge, advance and shoot, fallback and shoot and fallback and charge.

 

i feel those work well on most units.

Sure, but they benefit jump units even more because of the increased movement they get.

advance and charge works much better when you’re moving 12” than 5 or 6”

edit

I guess it works well for land raiders sine they have assault ramps. So I’ll concede that.

 

 

 

Sure, everyone has Gravis, just like everyone has assault squads.  but the conversation being had is about SPECIALTIES, and Gravis (Despite being very cool and very good and something I bring quite often in my BA army, in the exact combo you mentioned in your edit) isn't something that BA specializes in (Though there is that one really cool art with the Aggressor Captain with the tiger skin and blinged out armor), just makes use of.  So I wouldn't expect to see something that's dedicated to Gravis in a BA detatchment, whereas we have the things you would expect; advancing and charging, falling back and charging, and repositioning, mostly around JP units but also with a few general uses sprinkled in.  Which is what we have.  It feels like very fluffy and good detatchments for what is our fluff and without getting a full Codex's 4-6 detatchments.

 

I would also liked to have seen some of our vehicle stuff remain, but I'm not too surprised.

That may be the conversation you’re having.

since this whole conversation started because I was unhappy with BA being pigeon holed I feel pretty safe saying this whole conversation isn’t about specialities but about BA losing some of their flavor and being pigeon holed.

Edited August 22 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Went through every codex I have except the PDF one.

here are the large army pics from each that had such pics in them.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Apparently the photos of pages are too large and I can’t upload many of them.

 

but point being even in the 9th Ed codex well into the pigeon hole era, they clearly show jump infantry are the minority of an army overall.

 

same with the art work of more than 1 or 2 units, it’s primarily ground pounders.

 

<spoiler> 

 </spoiler>

Edited August 23 by Xenith

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

[Blindhamster]

And guys on the ground benefit from move, advance, charge or move, advance, shoot too. 
 

a vehicle start may have been nice but wasn’t necessary and if anything would have felt bad. 
 

if they wanted to reflect our vehicles the best thing to do would be to have overcharged datasheets for us.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

And guys on the ground benefit from move, advance, charge or move, advance, shoot too. 
 

a vehicle start may have been nice but wasn’t necessary and if anything would have felt bad. 
 

if they wanted to reflect our vehicles the best thing to do would be to have overcharged datasheets for us.

Yes ground pounders benefit, but not as much as jump troops. 
Any mobility related buff will be better on jump infantry.

 

orks benefit from +1 to hit, doesn’t mean the net outcome is the same as a marine benefiting from a +1 to hit.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I think it’s pretty clear that even up to the 9th edition codex that vehicles particularly transports have always been a major part of our identity.

 

i think it is weird they gave skimmers to DA instead of BA way so long ago.

 

personally i would have traded our dreads for unique speeder variants and let the DA be the ‘dread’ chapter 

[jaxom]

Isn't that the whole point of Firestorm? Shock assault with transports? Or based on those picture: Gladius, a mix of infantry, transports, bikes, jump packs, and tanks?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Isn't that the whole point of Firestorm? Shock assault with transports? Or based on those picture: Gladius, a mix of infantry, transports, bikes, jump packs, and tanks?

Firestorm has nothing that benefits vehicles.

its a footslogging short range shooting detachment.

gladius, again, nothing that benefits transports in any real way.

but again we had OC’d engines on our rhino chassis transports, and now that’s only on the Baal.

 

Edited August 22 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[HeadlessCross]

 

Firestorm has nothing that benefits vehicles.

its a footslogging short range shooting detachment.

gladius, again, nothing that benefits transports in any real way.

You've clearly never read the detachment Strats.