Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[Robbienw]

 

The new Lemartes pose is debatable, but the mini is ruined by his skull helmet having a gag ball...

Unfortunately true.

[Nephaston]

Since it's a vox speaker as well it's more like a ring gag. No biting, only screaming.

 

[Alternis]

 

As long as you're willing to wait for him. There's a list of Primarchs to return first before they start raising the truly dead. 

Highly debatable 

 

GW has been proven for the last couple editions now their returning Primarch focus is the big 4 for both loyalist and chaos before we will ever see any codex compliant stuff coming back. 
 

After Leman Russ comes back this edition the next 2 for loyalist we will be in the running to return is Dorn for Black Templars and Sanguinius for Blood Angels. 
 

I know a lot of people are gonna be like “this will never happen” just look at GW’s design choices recently? Dont think it’s not out of the zone of possibility now.

Edited August 25 by Alternis
Elaboration.

[Wispy]

I don't mind Sanguinius coming back at one point, probably as some sort of warp entity? but they need to do significant legwork in the narrative to build this up and there needs to be narrative consequences, maybe driving Blood Angels insane in a different way? lol  

 

(that'd be funny, "Sanguinius is back! He'll cure the Black Rage!" but actually, when he's nearby, every Blood Angel thinks they're storming the Vengeful Spirit and they're trapped in Horus-Murdering wish fulfillment fantasies instead.)

 

Just yeah, just flipping the switch and saying Sanguinor is Sanguinius now, ain't that.

Edited August 25 by Wispy

[Alternis]

 

I don't mind Sanguinius coming back at one point, probably as some sort of warp entity? but they need to do significant legwork in the narrative to build this up and there needs to be narrative consequences, maybe driving Blood Angels insane in a different way? lol 

 

that'd be funny, "Sanguinius is back! He'll cure the Black Rage!" but actually, when he's nearby, every Blood Angel thinks they're storming the Vengeful Spirit and they're trapped in Horus-Murdering wish fulfillment fantasies instead. 

The whole curing the black rage narrative is currently tied to Mephiston and him eventually evolving into the black angel, I don’t see that changing.

 

but the leg work for Sanguinius return has already been done in The End and the Death trio, Darkness in the Blood and Lion, Son of the Forest. 
 

just needs a good writer to connect the threads into a tidy rope we can all grasp

[Wispy]

 

Only decently posed recent jump pack equipped marines are the 30k assault squad and Lemartes, imo.

lol, i hate those 30k assault squads. They're too grounded. 

[lansalt]

 

but the leg work for Sanguinius return has already been done in The End and the Death trio, Darkness in the Blood and Lion, Son of the Forest. 

None of these books contain any foreshadowing about him returning. It's just fans wishful thinking. If he comes back (I hope not) it will be by completely ignoring the previous fluff like Dante's visions, etc.

Same story with Russ, specially since there's a whole book, The Wolftime, about him not returning yet.

Gulliman and the Lion were low hanging fruits, the others not so much and I don't think GW needs to break that piggy bank yet.

[ZeroWolf]

 

None of these books contain any foreshadowing about him returning. It's just fans wishful thinking. If he comes back (I hope not) it will be by completely ignoring the previous fluff like Dante's visions, etc.

Same story with Russ, specially since there's a whole book, The Wolftime, about him not returning yet.

Gulliman and the Lion were low hanging fruits, the others not so much and I don't think GW needs to break that piggy bank yet.

Considering the rumours about Leman, I think that may be taken out of our hands but we've still a year to go to gauge accuracy as GW apparently like putting primarchs at the end of the edition. I would have said 40k Fulgrim was 2026 as well so GW could reap the profits of two in one year like Angron and Lion'el but apparently Fulgrim is next year?

 

I think GW will not rock the boat too much with returning primarch and work through the ones who don't need narrative resurrection like Vulkan or Dorn or even Crovax given the retcon they started to put in place for him. Same with Chaos Primarchs past Fulgrim, we'll be likely to see Pertraubo and Co.

 

It'll be interesting, if it comes to pass, that their legions/chapters become seperate codex supplements with associated models...though that is jumping forward a bit.

[Blindhamster]

For some clarity on my last post.

Im not saying I want Sanguinius to come back (in fact, I don't particularly... though I also never wanted the Sanguinor to become a "primarch equivalent"), I just think GW are more likely to return Sanguinius than a primarch for one of the non-divergent chapters at this point honestly. Only way I dont see that happening is if Ultramarines take a sideline.

[Wispy]

Space Wolves fans have been ready for an older, wiser, and grizzled Leman to pop out of they eye of terror and fulfill the 'Wolftime' prophecy for a generation. They've already done the wulfen/13th company return. It's just a switch GW has to flip.

Edited August 25 by Wispy

[lansalt]

Going back to SG discussion, I just (re)discovered that there's a variant of them painted black with skull helms, the Erelim chaplain bodyguards of Astaroth: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Erelim

This is fan art, but you get the idea:

 

 

The wiki is wrong about them do not ever leaving Baal, though. It's more ambiguous in the novel. This is what Astorath: Angel of Mercy actually says:

 

‘Then there’s Astorath’s Erelim,’ Dolomen continued, ‘who guard his sanctum on Baal. They are unamusing fellows, so it is best they remain where they are. Besides them, and us, are the sundry mortals we encumber ourselves with, supposedly to aid us in our tasks, when they are not getting under our feet.’
‘You are accompanied by no other brothers?’ said Bedevoir.
Astorath answered. ‘The role of the Blood Angels is to protect and expand the domains of the Emperor of Mankind. It is not to endlessly deal with issues of the curse. That is my lot. The three brothers that ordinarily accompany me are three brothers who cannot help us perform our primary function as a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. I deem that too many, but the custom was set three thousand years ago, during the tenure of the High Chaplain Barachiel, and so I must abide by it.’

 

So hear me out: What if these new SG began as Erelim designs but were later recycled as normal SG? It would explain why they're so plain and come in 3... Anyway, this could be an alternative and fluffy way to use these models along Astaroth and DC marines for those that dislike them. Just swap their heads for cheap Reaver skull helmets and paint them black!

EDIT: I also just realized that Astorath can't lead SG, bummer :/

Edited August 25 by lansalt

[ZeroWolf]

 

Going back to SG discussion, I've just discovered that there's a variant of them painted black with skull helms, the Erelim chaplain bodyguards of Astaroth: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Erelim

This is fan art, but you get the idea:

 

 

The wiki is wrong about them do not ever leaving Baal, though. It's more ambiguous in the novel. This is what Astorath: Angel of Mercy actually says:

 

‘Then there’s Astorath’s Erelim,’ Dolomen continued, ‘who guard his sanctum on Baal. They are unamusing fellows, so it is best they remain where they are. Besides them, and us, are the sundry mortals we encumber ourselves with, supposedly to aid us in our tasks, when they are not getting under our feet.’
‘You are accompanied by no other brothers?’ said Bedevoir.
Astorath answered. ‘The role of the Blood Angels is to protect and expand the domains of the Emperor of Mankind. It is not to endlessly deal with issues of the curse. That is my lot. The three brothers that ordinarily accompany me are three brothers who cannot help us perform our primary function as a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. I deem that too many, but the custom was set three thousand years ago, during the tenure of the High Chaplain Barachiel, and so I must abide by it.’

 

So hear me out: What if these new SG began as Erelim designs but were later recycled as normal SG? It would explain why they're so plain and come in 3... Anyway, this could be an alternative and fluffy way to use these models along Astaroth and DC marines for those that dislike them. Just swap their heads for cheap Reaver skull helmets and paint them black!

A good explanation but I think they come in three because that's the trend GW go down with units like this now, especially when looking at inner circle companions for DA. I imagine the phrase "cost effective" probably turned up in GW's designer notes about them.

[Alternis]

 

None of these books contain any foreshadowing about him returning. It's just fans wishful thinking. If he comes back (I hope not) it will be by completely ignoring the previous fluff like Dante's visions, etc.

Same story with Russ, specially since there's a whole book, The Wolftime, about him not returning yet.

Gulliman and the Lion were low hanging fruits, the others not so much and I don't think GW needs to break that piggy bank yet.

Respectfully, I must disagree 

and apologies in advance for that. 
 

but I put that down to your personal biase why you didn’t see the foreshadowing so allow me to break this down into detail for you. 
 

end and the death - completely removed Sanguinius relevance to his death with Horus, it made no difference whether Sanguinius faced him or not the emperor would have still faced Horus at his full power with no weaknesses (no chink in the armour) there was also huge emphasis about the changing of timelines, further to the point, they specifically left off screen what happened to Sanguinius pre>post crucifixion, but one thing was made clear, his soul was no longer present in his body 

 

 

lion, son of the forest - the relics the emperor showed lion were all relics associated with Sanguinius (Spear of Telesto, Blood Chalice, Golden Candelabra, which is the symbol of Sanguinala) the emperor was trying to tell Lion something about Sanguinius but he didn’t understand much to the frustration of the emperor 

 

darkness in the blood - I’ve left this one last as it’s a lengthy explanation but I will abridge it.

we now know Sanguinius soul is hanging out in the warp, and has been most likely for the last 10k years. over the years of worship, like the emperor he his soul has managed to harness the power of faith (which explains why he’s able to do the things he’s doing with Dante and Mephiston) 

Sanguinius had also said to Mephiston that Abbadon’s great ‘victory’ he has inadvertently unleashed forces beyond his scope of understanding, “what was once thought impossible, is now possible” referring to why and how the Primarchs are now returning, and the emperors acts of faith and Sanguinius now seemingly able to directly interact with his sons this is all because of Abaddon. 
 

 

when you connect all the dots and tie together the threads it starts to build a picture, it’s not ‘wishful thinking’ it just takes a particular type of mind to be able to understand that unlike every other loyalist Primarch who we have a general understanding of where they are or could be, Sanguinius is ‘lots of moving parts, operating independently’ and a lot of people miss this very easily and are fast to shoot down all these little facts seperates across different books 

[Alternis]

 

A good explanation but I think they come in three because that's the trend GW go down with units like this now, especially when looking at inner circle companions for DA. I imagine the phrase "cost effective" probably turned up in GW's designer notes about them.

Yeah I suspect Space wolves will get something similar in this regard 

 

likely a 6 unit Wulfen guard type deal

[Sky Potato]

While I doubt the new SG were planned as Astorath's Erelim, its a neat concept.

 

I wasn't going to get a set of the new SG as I already have 25 (the chapters whole cohort of SG according to the codex), but I might acquire the new combat patrol, and make the 40k Erelim. Bonus points if I can somehow get them to pull double duty as Angels Tears for Heresy...

 

Also - well reminded, I need to re-read the Lemartes and Astorath novels before the new box set arrives. 

[darkhorse0607]

 

when you connect all the dots and tie together the threads it starts to build a picture, it’s not ‘wishful thinking’ it just takes a particular type of mind to be able to understand

 

Oh boy.

[lansalt]

This is offtopic, but I disregard those for several reasons:

• TEATD was just Abnett doing Abnett things to put it midly. Whatever is going on in Abnett's Pariah and the upcoming Pandemonium would be more relevant to BA lore. Maybe.
• The Lion references are just the wishful thinking I was talking about. All that stuff is reaching and not getting the arthurian references which are way more relevant in context.
• Mephiston series: Another example of the teasing common to many BA stories, like Dante's visions.

I just don't see a common plan and foreshadowing about Sanguinius coming back in the way I could make arguments about who's really Cypher, for example.

Not that the above matters anyway if GW decides they want the money: They will happily bulldoze all the previous fluff to release him if needed. They did it for much less when they created the current BA fluff at the expense of the Rafen books, etc.
 

[Gamiel]

Regarding the Sanguine Guard design do I admit to being disappointed that they were not more baroque, but on the other hand do I think that it's actually better that they are not. As they are now do people that are good painters and/or converters halve lots of real estate to show of their skills on, while people who are not don't have lots of small stuff they need to think about when building and painting them. The somewhat minimalistic bling also makes them easier to convert for people playing successors with a visual style different from the BA.

[Blindhamster]

 

They did it for much less when they created the current BA fluff at the expense of the Rafen books, etc.

 

And thank the emperor for that. That series of books should be burned and never thought of again. Thankfully the codeci have never really acknowledged them.

[Cenobite Terminator]

I seem to remember that rumors regarding Sanguinor being given Primarch level rules were pushed by people that don’t want the return of Sanguinius. I thought it was possible due to what had been stated and the depth of the conversation including some alleged certainty. I personally would prefer the return of Sanguinius.

Edited August 25 by Cenobite Terminator

[Alternis]

 

This is offtopic, but I disregard those for several reasons:

• TEATD was just Abnett doing Abnett things to put it midly. Whatever is going on in Abnett's Pariah and the upcoming Pandemonium would be more relevant to BA lore. Maybe.
• The Lion references are just the wishful thinking I was talking about. All that stuff is reaching and not getting the arthurian references which are way more relevant in context.
• Mephiston series: Another example of the teasing common to many BA stories, like Dante's visions.

I just don't see a common plan and foreshadowing about Sanguinius coming back in the way I could make arguments about who's really Cypher, for example.

Not that the above matters anyway if GW decides they want the money: They will happily bulldoze all the previous fluff to release him if needed. They did it for much less when they created the current BA fluff at the expense of the Rafen books, etc.
 

And that is completely fine, you are more than welcome to disregard. 
 

everyone is entitled to their own opinion regardless whether we agree or disagree with each other. 
 

the fact remains however GW are focusing Primarch returns on the big 4 on both loyalist and chaos. 
 

so Fulgrim & Leman Russ this edition. 
 

I reckon we’ll see a conclusion with Vashtorr that will bring in Perturabo in the next edition which would make more sense to bring back Dorn too, given their rivalry which makes sense with their current trend. 
 

Then Sanguinius the last of the big 4, but as to which chaos Primarch to return after that is a toss up 

[brother_b]

I think we forget one thing, or at least haven’t brought it full circle.

 

GW is already more than willing to push aside, change, or skew the lore as needed.

 

Blood Angels are super popular.

 

GW is in the money making business.

 

Sanguinius = popular = $$$

 

I think we see him return.

[Noserenda]

Sanguinius returning would just completely undermine his entire character arc, like regardless of those references (which personally seem beyond tenuous) because GW has always run a loose and commercial driven canon, authors insinuate stuff all the time that isnt GW policy in the slightest because they think its cool; it would just be completely creatively bankrupt. He was the hero who went to his final fight, knowing it was going to happen the way it did, coming back later is just... :cuss:.

Sure do some big manifestation on Sanguinor or the black rage one (maybe both?) as a big centrepiece but dont bring back Sanguinius (Or Ferrus for that matter), 40k is wrestling, not comics :P 

Though on a side note, something that nearly made me die laughing last night whilst walking the dog was a bunch of guys with the classic "teenage street thugs" accent talking about how crap the new Sanguinary guard are and losing all the nipples is bull:cuss:. Like, you couldnt make it up. :D 
 

[Matrindur]

I expect something at a Primarch level for BA in the future and it will likely be something to do with Sanguinius. But probably not a completely normal Sanguinius like the Lion or Guilliman but more of a manifestation or warp spirit. Thats basically what I expected the Sanguinor to become for this update but that didn't happen.

 

Same thing I expect with Ferrus Manus as a ghost/spirit and Corvus Corax in a warp form if they bring them back. But that is unlikelier than Blood Angels. (or at least not expected any time soon)

 

This edition was probably just not BA's turn for their SM centerpiece. Probably Space Wolves at the end of the edition? But unless 40k implodes its pretty much a safe bet that all legions get their big centerpiece primarch level model someday. Either as the actual primarch returned or as some kind of vestige in the case of dead primarchs.

Since GW started that trend they kinda have to finish it

Edited August 26 by Matrindur

[Alternis]

 

Sanguinius returning would just completely undermine his entire character arc, like regardless of those references (which personally seem beyond tenuous) because GW has always run a loose and commercial driven canon, authors insinuate stuff all the time that isnt GW policy in the slightest because they think its cool; it would just be completely creatively bankrupt. He was the hero who went to his final fight, knowing it was going to happen the way it did, coming back later is just... :cuss:.

Sure do some big manifestation on Sanguinor or the black rage one (maybe both?) as a big centrepiece but dont bring back Sanguinius (Or Ferrus for that matter), 40k is wrestling, not comics :P 

Though on a side note, something that nearly made me die laughing last night whilst walking the dog was a bunch of guys with the classic "teenage street thugs" accent talking about how crap the new Sanguinary guard are and losing all the nipples is bull:cuss:. Like, you couldnt make it up. :D 
 

Did you catch the lore change regarding Ferrus? 
his head (skull?) was recovered by Dorn, unsure if it’s still in his possession or not, but they left it open ended to probably expand on it later. 
 

 

I was wondering when special officer doofus would show up, he religiously goes around marking all my posts with disagreeing, I think it’s become a personal hobby of his at this point lol