Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard

[TheArtilleryman]

 

Did you catch the lore change regarding Ferrus? 
his head (skull?) was recovered by Dorn, unsure if it’s still in his possession or not, but they left it open ended to probably expand on it later. 

Didn’t know that … now I imagine a primarch level dreadnought  lol

[Redcomet]

Sanguinius deserves to come back, after the way his death is portrayed now. 
No justice no peace 

[Marshal Reinhard]

I could see them doing another primarch over Sanguinius. He's dead after all. 

 

But I could also see them taking the newer lore as a justification for him being OK to bring back now. It just undermines everything about the black rage if they do. If they do, he better be some sort of greater deamon of order. You just can't have him look normal like Guilliman or Lion.

 

Still I'd prefer they take someone else, we have a few that have always been listed as alive but lost.

[Alternis]

 

I could see them doing another primarch over Sanguinius. He's dead after all. 

 

But I could also see them taking the newer lore as a justification for him being OK to bring back now. It just undermines everything about the black rage if they do. If they do, he better be some sort of greater deamon of order. You just can't have him look normal like Guilliman or Lion.

 

Still I'd prefer they take someone else, we have a few that have always been listed as alive but lost.

My personal prediction. 

 

This edition - Fulgrim & Leman Russ 

 

11th Edition - Perturabo & Dorn 

 

12th Edition - Sanguinius 

 

I just can’t put any idea on what returning chaos Primarch to pair him with.

 

maybe Curze? Or Horus?

 

I know Lorgar is tied to Corax atm.

 

Once Fulgrim is dropped GW is free to focus on the other chaos Primarchs, so Perturabo, Lorgar, Curze, Horus, Omegon all have scope to return. 
 

Khan, Vulkan, Corax and Ferrus we won’t see any movement on till the big 4 loyalists are done.

 

 

[Wormwoods]

My personal prediction: we're gonna continue to get big, dumb named character models, and I'll be salty about it in my Crusade group chat. 

[Alternis]

 

My personal prediction: we're gonna continue to get big, dumb named character models, and I'll be salty about it in my Crusade group chat. 

Speaking of named characters. 
 

I understand why they removed Corbulo and Seth. 
there’s been a big purge of successor stuff across the board anyway.

 

there’s been some nods that Guilliman feels that splitting up the legions was a mistake, so (this is actual wishful thinking) maybe we’re seeing the legions united no more chapters split up? 

 

Also Corbulo makes sense from a lore pov, he’s become irrelevant now and is doomed to obscurity since Mephiston has now picked up his narrative thread. 

[TheArtilleryman]

 

there’s been some nods that Guilliman feels that splitting up the legions was a mistake, so (this is actual wishful thinking) maybe we’re seeing the legions united no more chapters split up? 

I can’t see this, as it would take away so much of the freedom players have to make up their own chapters. This is such a big draw for people to buy more and more marines that I think they’d be nuts to remove it from the lore.

[Xirix]

 

Didn’t know that … now I imagine a primarch level dreadnought  lol

Considering the rumour of Pert coming back as, presumably, the Logos gone out of control and corrupted by Chaos, (If I recall, that's how his Daemon form has been described, basically just his husk being walked around by his armour) we might very well see two Primarch Dreadnoughts, and I am all for that.

[Karhedron]

 

Lion, son of the forest - the relics the emperor showed lion were all relics associated with Sanguinius (Spear of Telesto, Blood Chalice, Golden Candelabra, which is the symbol of Sanguinala) the emperor was trying to tell Lion something about Sanguinius but he didn’t understand much to the frustration of the Emperor. 

 

No, the artefacts the Fisher King shows Johnson are references to the Grail legend. It is about Arthurian mythology, which is a big part of the Dark Angels inspiration. They are nothing to do with the Blood Angels.

[Gamiel]

 

there’s been a big purge of successor stuff across the board anyway.

I taket it that you have not seen the new DA n BA transfer sheets with successors markings on them.

[ZeroWolf]

Not the place to discuss it here but I can see Seth returning, either as part of an 11th edition blood angels release or a end of edition campaign release.

[ThaneOfTas]

 

I can see Seth returning, either as part of an 11th edition blood angels release or a end of edition campaign release.

Whichever one isn't Seth I'm almost certain will be Corbulo

[Alternis]

 

 

No, the artefacts the Fisher King shows Johnson are references to the Grail legend. It is about Arthurian mythology, which is a big part of the Dark Angels inspiration. They are nothing to do with the Blood Angels.

I get that this was the theme they were going for 

 

but you’re forgetting this is 40K were not reading actual Arthurian legends, it’s a nod to the mythos, the artefacts purposefully have relevance to ongoing 40K narrative, it was just written in such a style as to borrow the Arthurian legend theme. 
 

everyone wants to try so hard to say there’s no connection 

[ThaneOfTas]

 

everyone wants to try so hard to say there’s no connection 

Because Occam's razor would have it that there isn't.

[Alternis]

 

Not the place to discuss it here but I can see Seth returning, either as part of an 11th edition blood angels release or an end of edition campaign release.

I do hope Seth returns, naturally. 
 

but I don’t see Corbulo coming back as Mephiston is now essentially taken over his narrative line (curing the black rage) 

Edited August 26 by Alternis
Wrong BA Character

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

I was wondering when special officer doofus would show up, he religiously goes around marking all my posts with disagreeing, I think it’s become a personal hobby of his at this point lol 

 

First of all, it's Special Officer Doofy, not doofus. Biiiiig difference. A whole two letters, not just one.

 

And second, you keep bringing up a dead primarch that's not coming back, which is not on topic to the thread. I'm disagreeing with everyone that posts about it, you just happen to do it the most.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I could see them doing another primarch over Sanguinius. He's dead after all. 

 

But I could also see them taking the newer lore as a justification for him being OK to bring back now. It just undermines everything about the black rage if they do. If they do, he better be some sort of greater deamon of order. You just can't have him look normal like Guilliman or Lion.

 

Still I'd prefer they take someone else, we have a few that have always been listed as alive but lost.

Nothing about the BR is undermined by his return.

i was in the navy, I got PTSD, i got out of the navy, the PTSD didn’t just magically go away.

 

if they bring sanguinius back, they should make his suffer from the rage as well. He shouldn’t just come back as his regular old self.

[Marshal Reinhard]

 

Nothing about the BR is undermined by his return.

i was in the navy, I got PTSD, i got out of the navy, the PTSD didn’t just magically go away.

 

if they bring sanguinius back, they should make his suffer from the rage as well. He shouldn’t just come back as his regular old self.

Black Rage isn't PTSD though. It's a psychic effect resulting from his death. Him being not dead, does very much undermine it in a narrative sense. It could make sense that'd it be there, but the whole idea, the concept takes a beating if its "it's psychosis caused by the prior death to this alive guy here".

 

If he comes back, he shouldn't be suffering from the black rage, he should be very clearly a ghost version of himself. A warp apparition. He can't just be his flesh and blood self, because that'd mean he didn't lose anything by dying. Which is why I thought they'd up the Sanguinor to "primarch" status, as Sanguinor and Warp entity Sanguinius would be stepping on each other's toes.

 

But then again, I barely understand what the Sanguinor is, I haven't stayed up to date with BA lore since 2nd edition.

 

If a ghost apparition Sanguinius is not on table, then I hope the 4th loyalist primarch they bring back is one of the safe options. I at the very least cannot see any lore path that justifies a normal Sanguinius back. Just having the black rage doesn't cut it.

[Blindhamster]

It was a psychic shockwave that ingrained the literal experience of the period leading up to his duel with Horus and culminating in his death. 
 

if he were to come back, there’s no guarantee that it would stop that psychic echo from existing for his sons, and he absolutely would have some impact from it having been the one to actual experience it, realistically for him it probably should be more like ptsd though.

 

also worth noting, Magnus got broken up into shards, he got them back obviously which helped restore himself in a sense (he was still full of hubris and believed he did nothing wrong though).

 

It is likely that sanguinius’ soul did the same thing.

 

its been pretty well established that primarchs as warp entities embodied in mortal flesh, can’t actually be killed in the traditional manner.

 

its also clear there are remnants of sanguinius in multiple places at this point which would further nod toward the shards thing. IMO Mephiston and maybe the sanguinor probably have a shard each.  Particularly Mephiston who literally had so much power his body was beginning to break up.

 

we have also established the concept of warp entities that are on the imperiums side. 
 

it sanguinius comes back, it won’t be the old him thats for sure, it may or may not be a physical entity, his body is on Baal in a stasis sarcophagus so potentially something could be done involving that. It also is possibly he would be a straight up metaphysical entity. 
 

fact is, Sanguinius is already “back” just not in the physical sense. Multiple characters have conversed with him at this point. It’s just a equation of the I’ll it go further than that or not.

 

as for devaluing his sacrifice. It was already devalued, Abnett absolutely murdered our boy and any relevance or significance to the story he once had. Now it’s a pointless, meaningless death. 
 

maybe something good will come of things in the 40K books he is writing. We already met actual winged blood angels there, perhaps someone is trying to bring sanguinius back that way.

p.s. the sanguinor is almost certainly the herald of sanguinius from the imperium secundus. He gave up his identity entirely to be Sanguinius’ voice. During the blood angels journey to Terra a trap was set for the blood angels and part of that required Sanguinius to stay and hold a portal against demons. His herald takes his place and as Sanguinius turns and leaves he sees his herald surrounded in golden light (may have also had wings appear.. I don’t remember). The implication as that he becomes a warp entity and is basically powered by the blood angels need.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 26 by Blindhamster

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Black Rage isn't PTSD though. It's a psychic effect resulting from his death. Him being not dead, does very much undermine it in a narrative sense. It could make sense that'd it be there, but the whole idea, the concept takes a beating if its "it's psychosis caused by the prior death to this alive guy here".

 

If he comes back, he shouldn't be suffering from the black rage, he should be very clearly a ghost version of himself. A warp apparition. He can't just be his flesh and blood self, because that'd mean he didn't lose anything by dying. Which is why I thought they'd up the Sanguinor to "primarch" status, as Sanguinor and Warp entity Sanguinius would be stepping on each other's toes.

 

But then again, I barely understand what the Sanguinor is, I haven't stayed up to date with BA lore since 2nd edition.

 

If a ghost apparition Sanguinius is not on table, then I hope the 4th loyalist primarch they bring back is one of the safe options. I at the very least cannot see any lore path that justifies a normal Sanguinius back. Just having the black rage doesn't cut it.

The psychic wave doesn’t become undone becomes he comes back to life.

its magic warp PTSD.

 

there’s literally no logical way to explain how him coming back would some how undo the psychic trauma from his death.

[phandaal]

 

The psychic wave doesn’t become undone becomes he comes back to life.

its magic warp PTSD.

 

there’s literally no logical way to explain how him coming back would some how undo the psychic trauma from his death.

 

People are not saying it undoes the made-up lore effect.

 

They are saying it undoes the significance of the effect from the perspective of people actually interacting with the lore.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

It was a psychic shockwave that ingrained the literal experience of the period leading up to his duel with Horus and culminating in his death. 
 

if he were to come back, there’s no guarantee that it would stop that psychic echo from existing for his sons, and he absolutely would have some impact from it having been the one to actual experience it, realistically for him it probably should be more like ptsd though.

 

also worth noting, Magnus got broken up into shards, he got them back obviously which helped restore himself in a sense (he was still full of hubris and believed he did nothing wrong though).

 

It is likely that sanguinius’ soul did the same thing.

 

its been pretty well established that primarchs as warp entities embodied in mortal flesh, can’t actually be killed in the traditional manner.

 

its also clear there are remnants of sanguinius in multiple places at this point which would further nod toward the shards thing. IMO Mephiston and maybe the sanguinor probably have a shard each.  Particularly Mephiston who literally had so much power his body was beginning to break up.

 

we have also established the concept of warp entities that are on the imperiums side. 
 

it sanguinius comes back, it won’t be the old him thats for sure, it may or may not be a physical entity, his body is on Baal in a stasis sarcophagus so potentially something could be done involving that. It also is possibly he would be a straight up metaphysical entity. 
 

fact is, Sanguinius is already “back” just not in the physical sense. Multiple characters have conversed with him at this point. It’s just a equation of the I’ll it go further than that or not.

 

as for devaluing his sacrifice. It was already devalued, Abnett absolutely murdered our boy and any relevance or significance to the story he once had. Now it’s a pointless, meaningless death. 
 

maybe something good will come of things in the 40K books he is writing. We already met actual winged blood angels there, perhaps someone is trying to bring sanguinius back that way.

p.s. the sanguinor is almost certainly the herald of sanguinius from the imperium secundus. He gave up his identity entirely to be Sanguinius’ voice. During the blood angels journey to Terra a trap was set for the blood angels and part of that required Sanguinius to stay and hold a portal against demons. His herald takes his place and as Sanguinius turns and leaves he sees his herald surrounded in golden light (may have also had wings appear.. I don’t remember). The implication as that he becomes a warp entity and is basically powered by the blood angels need.

 

 

 

 

 

It might not be completely fair to blame Dan for the general changes to how he died and the effect he had on the later duel.

that might have come straight from GW corporate.

[lansalt]

 

Abnett absolutely murdered our boy

Indeed. It's impossible to reconcile the previous BA lore and stories with the anti climatic duel we got. Of all the possible options, from playing it straight to a subversive plot twist, he chose to be anti-climatic and inconsecuential on purpose. Since TEATD, Abnett should be the one appearing in the Black Rage's visions, and "Why did you betray us, Abnett?" should be the line DC marines repeat again and again while "Horus" appears with a beard and glasses. He messed up Sanguinius myth just like he messed up the Lone Guardsman myth.

 

 

the sanguinor is almost certainly the herald of sanguinius from the imperium secundus

Yeah, he became an entity that may overlap or not with Sanguinius due to the BA's beliefs.  However, thematically Sanguinius' death is only second to the Emperor having to sit on the Throne, undoing that would spoil the foundational tragedy of the Imperium and the BA for the sake of cheap fanservice. Pretty much like leaving the door open to bringing back Horus again (Why did you betray us, Abnett? ) and spoiling all the work done by ADB and others.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

People are not saying it undoes the made-up lore effect.

 

They are saying it undoes the significance of the effect from the perspective of people actually interacting with the lore.

What effect does it undo?

the BR will likely still exist.

 

holy beings sacrificing themselves just to come back later is a well established trope, and is the core feature of the world’s largest religion, with the promise that said holy being will come back yet again some day…so yeah, there’s not really any good argument against bringing him back except “I don’t like it, and don’t want it to happen.”

Which isn’t a very good argument against it.

[INKS]

This is NOW WAY OFF TOPIC. Bring it back in please. Feel free to start another topic all about the resurrection of the primarch.