Returning to Chaos

[ChaosKen60]

Let's I have not posted in a long while, I started playing WH40K back in RT days, and quit around 3rd-4th Edition, I have tried a couple times to restart - Blood Angels/Dark Angels, both of which just does not work for me.

 

SO, I ordered and now got two CSM box sets, so I got figures again and I back in the arms of CHAOS!

[Bouargh]

Welcome back.

 

You´ll see that some stuff have changed. And other not so much. Chaos powers were quite affected in the intercession, especially (I would say) in 6 to 8th Ed, but they come back slowly to what they used to be.

 

Miniature have greaty improved and Cultists help as cannon fodder now. Sure, I preferred when Legionnaires were more aligned with the Heresy Era unit tooling up a few Eds. ago (up to 20 CSM in one unit,...), but coming back to 10 men strong is OK. I am not anymore in the CSM too much so I lost track on how they work with Marks and cults / poster boyz legions (World Eaters, Plague marines...) which are now more independant - limiting access to their battle line unit only if I am correct. 

[ChaosKen60]

 

Welcome back.

 

You´ll see that some stuff have changed. And other not so much. Chaos powers were quite affected in the intercession, especially (I would say) in 6 to 8th Ed, but they come back slowly to what they used to be.

 

Miniature have greaty improved and Cultists help as cannon fodder now. Sure, I preferred when Legionnaires were more aligned with the Heresy Era unit tooling up a few Eds. ago (up to 20 CSM in one unit,...), but coming back to 10 men strong is OK. I am not anymore in the CSM too much so I lost track on how they work with Marks and cults / poster boyz legions (World Eaters, Plague marines...) which are now more independant - limiting access to their battle line unit only if I am correct. 

Well back in the day I always played Chaos Undivided, and my DIY Unit - The Metal Kings, so I thought about doing something similar my own DIY Traitors but a different name and colors.

Cultists - I highly interested in them BUT I worried if they will get dropped again so I hate to invest cash into more of a unit that may disappear. And I ordered the Core Rules and CSM Codex as well just waiting for them to arrive and there is a group of players at work (all younger than me LoL) so I will actual have someone to play with!

And thanks for your reply   

[Bouargh]

I would say the cultist are here to stay.

 

Most CSM books (inc WE, 1000S and DG) include some kind of Cultists, whatever they are Beastmen, Plague zombies or bloodlust driven Jackals. The Acursed and the Dark Commune strengthen this selection for Vanillla CSM. Plus traitor guards units (I have not checked if the latter are included in the unit number limitaton that apply to cultists in the index btw...).

 

There is a nice selection that gives access to both cannon fodder and numbers.

 

But a real plus for the CSM is the Dreadblade options. These chaos only war dogs (or even the Knight Abominant) are a very nice plus that compensate the relative poorness of the tank and armoured support slots available. Except if you go FW with Blood slaughterer or Decimator...

 

Yet some Daemon engimne looks very cool: Lord DIscordant mount, Venomcrawler... These are quite original indeed. 

[ChaosKen60]

 

I would say the cultist are here to stay.

Yet some Daemon engimne looks very cool: Lord DIscordant mount, Venomcrawler... These are quite original indeed. 

Cool, I saw also online something about Traitor Imperial Guard how long have they been part?

Daemon Engines - - I have to look them up. There is a lot from what I have found online that has changed since my time (I wish I had my old 2nd ED 3000Pt army still) I am waiting for the books so I read more i.e. see how good the Master of Possession and the Possessed are, etc.

 

I would like to have a Chaos Lord (out of habit) but I do not want buy one IF the Master of Possession works, etc.

Edited August 13 by ChaosKen60

[Bouargh]

 

Cool, I saw also online something about Traitor Imperial Guard how long have they been part?

 

They were released as part of the stand alone game "Blackstone fortress" some years ago, but they really stepped into 40k after the release of the Kill-team Moroch settlement at spring 2022 (I had to look for it on WarComm, as I do NOT really remember dates...).

Kill Team: Blooded (warhammer.com)

You can also bring a Beastmen unit from KT as Fellgor ravagers. 

Kill Team: Fellgor Ravagers (warhammer.com)

 

None of these is battle line so they are somehow more restricted to max 3 units. But they bring a little something more vs. tar pitting cultists. Traitor guards are better for Objective occupation and Fellgors bring a little extra in Close Combat - without going into details. But this has a cost vs. the bargain that Cultists are.

[ChaosKen60]

 

None of these is battle line so they are somehow more restricted to max 3 units. But they bring a little something more vs. tar pitting cultists. Traitor guards are better for Objective occupation and Fellgors bring a little extra in Close Combat - without going into details. But this has a cost vs. the bargain that Cultists are.

Man thanks for the info, I cannot wait for my books so I can actually read, my mind was blown already talking to the players at work with some of the Primarchs being back, LoL I could swear I think I had a old WD magazine where one of the GW said they would never bring the Primarchs back or the Squats but both are in game LoL

[Tallarn Commander]

Welcome back! Yes, Cultists have been part of regular Chaos Marine armies since 2012 so they are probably not going anywhere. Heck there were metal Cultist models and special White Dwarf rules for adding Cultists to CSM armies as way back as 3rd Edition at least. So I also think Cultists are here to stay. 
 

I have not yet tried out Felgor Beastmen. But I sometimes bring a Traitor Guard Squad or 2. Traitor Guard are less effective than Cultists because they don’t make objectives sticky and they cost 2 more points per model. But they are a fun and useful light infantry unit. Plus Traitor Guard are OC 2 each as opposed to the Cultists’s OC 1 each, so that’s something.

[ChaosKen60]

 

Welcome back! Yes, Cultists have been part of regular Chaos Marine armies since 2012 so they are probably not going anywhere. Heck there were metal Cultist models and special White Dwarf rules for adding Cultists to CSM armies as way back as 3rd Edition at least. So I also think Cultists are here to stay. 

Yeah I remember that WD, I did not buy any Cultists back then, BUT I am really interested in them now! So that will be most likely my next purchase, I first want a Chaos Lord of some type, maybe get old Abbadon and do a conversion?

 

Thanks for your reply 

[Cpt.Danjou]

Welcome back to the fold of the true gods, and mot the corpse gods minions.

 

That box is ok. Many of us Chaos players use Cultists as screens and/or objective takers. Legioners are our bread and butter, in a 2000 point game I at least have three 10 man units. Then you have the possessed, the glass-cannon of that box, either they work extremely well or they crumble fast. They are fast moving, hard hitting in melee, you can use the the Master of Possession with them and they will become slightly faster.

 

Another thing to think of with the Legioners is that they don't have te option to take power fists, there are fists on the sprues, but all hard hitting melee weapons are called  heavy melee, so if you have spiky two handed axe or a power fist it does not matter both goes under the same rule. One handed blinged up weapons are mostly considered Accursed weapons. 

You don't need to bother with marks anymore, if you don't play the "Pact-bound zealots" detachement, bring a Daemon prince, or bring any of the Cultists marines then Mark are not important. Talking about Cultists Marines, you can only bring Khorne Berzerkers, Noise marines, Rubrics and Plague Marines, and only bring a quarter of the points from their respective Codex/Index. If you have a mark, anu transport must have the same Mark, Slaanesh Marines do not go into a Nurgle Rhino.

Daemons is stilla thing with many players, not with me, so if I am correct you can only bring a quarter of the points of daemons, and if you want to bring anything that is not Battleline (Troops), you must first buy a daemon Character(HQ) first. Others who use daemons can probably correct me.

 

Now days you can build a "Lost and the damned" list quite easily. Cultists are Battleline, Traitor guard can be battleline in the "Chaos Cult" detachement., and then you have Accursed cultists, (mutants), and Fellgore beastmen. Plus three different Characters. So you can flood the table with rabble if you want, 

 

The Chaos codex has 8 detachments, some are bad, some are ok, and others are good, when building up your army it is an idea to think of your playstyle. Do you want to flood the table with squishy slaves "Chaos Cults" is for you, Do you want strange daemon engines, and large models "Soulforged Warpack" is probably more your cup of tea. "Veterans of the long War" is a more standard old school list, while if you want to smash your opponent in the face with Chainswords and other pointy close combat weapon, then maybe "Renegade Raiders" is the detachment for you. "Raiders" and "Zealots" seem  to be most popular in the competitive circuit at the moment. But I have won or been close to a win with other detachments too.  Every detachment changes the style of playing a little, and sometimes even changes the whole army, but Legioners can work in every lists and so can Cultist Mobs do.

 

And lastly rule of cool always win, and Chaos are the cool guys.

 

There is a couple of threads that discuss the different units here, Unit of the week more will come soon.

Cpt. Danjou

Edited August 13 by Cpt.Danjou
Forgot that the Cultist Firebrand is a Character too

[Cpt.Danjou]

In my opinion Abaddon is a bit to expensive, both the Chaos lord in power armour and the one in Terminator armour are great beat sticks, but cost a third what Aby does.

 

Cpt,Danou

[ChaosKen60]

 

Welcome back to the fold of the true gods, and mot the corpse gods minions.

 

The Chaos codex has 8 detachments, some are bad, some are ok, and others are good, when building up your army it is an idea to think of your playstyle. Do you want to flood the table with squishy slaves "Chaos Cults" is for you, Do you want strange daemon engines, and large models "Soulforged Warpack" is probably more your cup of tea. "Veterans of the long War" is a more standard old school list, while if you want to smash your opponent in the face with Chainswords and other pointy close combat weapon, then maybe "Renegade Raiders" is the detachment for you. "Raiders" and "Zealots" seem  to be most popular in the competitive circuit at the moment. But I have won or been close to a win with other detachments too.  Every detachment changes the style of playing a little, and sometimes even changes the whole army, but Legioners can work in every lists and so can Cultist Mobs do.

 

And lastly rule of cool always win, and Chaos are the cool guys.

 

There is a couple of threads that discuss the different units here, Unit of the week more will come soon.

Cpt. Danjou

I been reading the Unit of the Week, by the way I used to play (2nd-3rd) was mainly using Troops I did not get into the big models to save on the cash, so except for my Rhinos and Land Raiders and my Dreadnaughts it was foot troops BUT I had a buddy who was playing Orks back then we would Ally up a lot. So I am leaning towards "Squishy Slaves" I do not think I will do any competitive games - bad memories from the last ones - I saw a player throw his DA Bikers because they "lost the game" for him!

 

Thanks for your reply - Working on a name for my Warband now :)

[ChaosKen60]

 

In my opinion Abaddon is a bit to expensive, both the Chaos lord in power armour and the one in Terminator armour are great beat sticks, but cost a third what Aby does.

Yeah just looked him up wow!

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Welcome to chaos and back to the hobby!

 

2 combat patrols is a really good base to an army, giving you 2 cultist squads, 1-2 possessed squads, 2-4 legionaires squads (plus 1-2 more from the box you bought) and a character, which is a really good base of units that you will likely want in any 10th ed army you build from it.  The only model that is a bit questionable is the second Master of Possession, for reasons I will get into below.

 

In this edition, we have a somewhat return to the days of yore you are more familiar with, in that characters again attach to units (they didn't for the previous 2 editions, instead typically buffing units that were close by).  However, unlike in 3rd and 4th, each character has a list of units they can attach to.  Master of Possession (MoP) is pretty limited in that way, in that of the units you have he only attaches to possesseds.  As well, since characters only buff one squad, its usually better use of points to max out the squads with characters rather than buying 2 for 2 smaller squads - which is why I say that the second MoP is probably the weakest part of the double box buy - personally, I would (and did) set it aside to later convert into a jump pack lord.

 

Possesseds are quite solid this edition, despite their recent nerf going into the new codex.  They are terminator expensive, but are also terminator tough (for however highly you rate terminator toughness, through they get theirs through higher T rather than better save), are pretty fast and absolutely munch marines in melee.  I personally like to field them in max sizes, as that helps ensure that enough make it into melee to actually inflict some damage when they get there.  MoP doesn't really make them faster (as his speed boost essentially just makes up for him being slower) but does help make them a bit more resilient.

 

Lords are pretty good this edition, and go great in Legionaries squads, so your army would definitely benefit from those attached to one of your (probably max sized) legionaries squads.  You can read a recent board discussion on them here.  A rhino for that squad would also be a good future buy.

 

Legionaries are solid this edition, but best in their melee configuration.  Here is the recent board discussion on this.  As noted by Cpt. Danjou, you'll want more heavy melee weapons or suitable standins like power fists - in my units, I give power fists to the champions and the actual axes to the squaddie.

 

Cultists are really cheap and still good, despite losing their non-close combat options with the new codex (I'm still really sore about that).  Their melee is still pretty poor, so they really only do 1 thing now - grab objectives.  That said, due to their "sticky objectives" rule (they can continue to claim objectives even after they wander off or die - your enemy needs to physically move models over to it to take it away from you) they are really good at claiming objectives and cheap enough that that 1 role is enough.  I always field 2 squads, which is what you will have.

 

There has been some discussion above as to the value of some units being battleline line allowing you to chose more of them.  Well that is true, I feel it is somewhat overstated.  Unlike the "Troops" designation in previous editions, there are no mandatory minimum force choices anymore.  So, you don't need to field any legionaries or cultists at all if you don't want to (you probably do, though, as both are good and you have them).  Really, all the battleline characterization does is allow you to go "all in" and chose 6 of that slot if you really want to - but there is enough good stuff in the codex that, except in very large battles or if you do want to to "all in" on a particular unit, the 3 unit cap on most units really isn't that limiting.  As a note, I've read that the Pariah Nexus mission cards do place added benefit on having the battleline characteristic (I can't comment further as I haven't seen those cards or read any detailed discussion of them), but baring that or similar mission rules, in most cases the battleline characteristic is pretty meaningless.

 

Contrary to Bouargh's recollection, cult troops (so, Thousand Suns and World Eaters) are not restricted to battleline - rather, the rules give a point limit as to how much you can take in a Heretic Astartes army based on the point size of the game (usually about 25%).  Demons work kind of the opposite to what Cpt. Danjou described - the point limit is correct (depends on game size, usually about 25%) but the other limitation is that you need a battleline unit of a particular god for every non-battleline of that god (rather than a "HQ" for every unit).  Bouargh is right about the way Chaos Knight allies work, and that they are quite good.  That said, there is enough interesting stuff in the Heretic Astartes codex that you really don't need allies - but they are nice option if that is something you are interested in.  For example, I have 4 different slaaneshi forces (marines, demons, knights and guard) and the only ones I have fielded together share the Heretic Astartes codex (marines and guard).

 

Unfortunately, while there is a "squishy slaves" oriented detachment, its probably the worst of the codex detachments.  Doesn't mean they won't be better in later editions, so still a great theme to build towards - and as noted by Cpt Danjou those "squishy" type units can still be great in the other detachments.

 

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text and hopefully it is helpful.

Edited August 13 by Dr_Ruminahui
To remove duplication with Cpt. Danjou

[ChaosKen60]

 

Welcome to chaos and back to the hobby!

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text and hopefully it is helpful.

Thanks for your reply and the info, and the "Wall of Text" is very helpful so send as much as you want :) so a 2nd combat patrol, well IMO the 2nd MofP looks like possible Chaos Lord conversion, will have to get some bits for that.  

 

And thanks to all of you, for the Welcome and the Advice

"Death to the False Emperor" 

Edited August 13 by ChaosKen60
Spelling

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Glad it was helpful.  Here is my Mop conversion, if you are interested - no longer legal, though (no hammers on jump lords), so I'll need to convert it further before I ever paint it.  No reason the MoP wouldn't work just as well for a foot lord - you would probably want to wrangle up a thunderhammer and plasma pistol if you want to do that, as that's probably the best configuration for the lord at the moment (plus probably a different head and back pack to make it look distinct from the original model).

Edited August 13 by Dr_Ruminahui

[ChaosKen60]

@Dr_Ruminahui Will do! And one of the guys a work says that he has a Stormcast Eternals Paints Set he is going to give me (free) to welcome me back to the game, just looked them up there is three Hammers :)

 

Time to log for a bit, got to get some stuff done around the home.

Edited August 13 by ChaosKen60

[ChaosKen60]

Well my books are here, so I got some “light reading” to do, and as long as I don’t have come into this weekend I will start on the figures.