BA, armor, and artistry

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I told you I wouldn't argue you with you about this I was directly responding to Lensoven about this stuff, sorry for the miscommunication.

 

 

It does matter.  One kit is usable for all space Marines as a base, the other was released as a specific kit for a specific faction.

And yet both can be used by blood angels players!

 

and as Jaxon points out those units were clearly meant to be upgrade sprues for bits to be spread amongst the generic units, so the units weren’t necessarily meant to be that cluttered.

Edited August 16 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

 

And yet both can be used by blood angels players!

 

and as Jaxon points out those units were clearly meant to be upgrade sprues for bits to be spread amongst the generic units, so the units weren’t necessarily meant to be that cluttered.

 

Right, as the base. Which you then bling out cuz that's what Blood Angels do. I'm glad we can finally arrive to the same conclusion.

 

Jaxon hasn't said one thing about the BA tactical squad considering he hasn't gotten to the time it was released.

 

If you're gonna lean on someone else to do your research, you should probably let em finish!

[jaxom]

Right, 5th edition Death Company, finally. Remember from the first post, the examples of Vulkan He'stan and Cato Sicarius? The detail density increased when art got adapted to sculpt? Yeah it happens again, though not to the same extent because they didn't have as much ornamentation.

 

 

I think it is vital we look at their peers to see if the Death Company are more ornate.

 

 

Not particularly, though the bolters may be a bit cleaner. The jump pack models have similar levels of ornamentation.

 

 

 

Again, very similar. The only real difference is the Death Company torso surface was able to be ornamented because it was in a dual-use kit whereas the Vanguard Veterans always had jump pack harnesses obscuring their torso ornamentation. However, it would incorrect to label the Veterans as peers because of an in-game elite status, but instead peers as special models. The art of the codex supports this as it runs the same spectrum as previously described in earlier posts. For examples, see the spoiler.

 

 

 

 

Tactical Marines









 

Assault Marines



 

Assault Marine (Left) and Assault Veteran (Right) - seriously, ornateness is a crapshoot.

 
 

 

The key difference in the long term was the Death Company models are plastic and compatible with other plastic kits with little or no conversion work. The 5th edition Blood Angels codex shows this.

 

 

 

The Death Company kit became a defacto upgrade set compared to a single upgrade sprue the Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves had; and where the Ultramarines had none. A Blood Angels army built as-is would be no more ornate than an Ultramarines army (and arguably less ornamented because Dante and the Sanguinary Guard have less ornamentation than Calgar and the Honour Guard). Yet it was easy for Blood Angel players to upgrade more of their models throughout their army compared to any other 'Codex' Marine force. This level of tabletop representation helped reinforce the more ornate art compared to other chapters, even though that style of art was equally represented across all Space Marines.

 

I think part because they reuse the same archetypes over and over. @DemonGSides described the following as resembling "a BA version of the Crimson Fist style "pile of guys  defending from all angles", the Ancient with banner has a bespoke belt buckle but is mostly covered, guy below him has a very bespoke shoulder pad." The Ultramarines copied it before the Blood Angels.

 

 

 

 

 

TL;DR: All Space Marines are fancy boys in the art, but the Blood Angels stand out as the fancy boys because for the foundation of the modern era (circa 2010-16) it was easier to convert their rank-and-file to look fancy compared to other codex chapters.

 

I'll tackle Sanguinary Guard and how they're ornate, but not ornamented, sometime in the next few days.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16 by jaxom
spelling

[jaxom]

 

Jaxon hasn't said one thing about the BA tactical squad considering he hasn't gotten to the time it was released.

Very true, but in part because I wanted to cover the 5th edition releases before the 7th edition releases. However, I'll do the short version now. The actual BA Tactical Squad wasn't nearly as influential as the Death Company kit, despite being a bespoke kit. The Blood Angels already had four years of a head start on fancier looking rank-and-file because of Death Company kit bits being used in conversions and kit bashes (and Sanguinary Guard bits, but they didn't get around as much). The BATS was the 2014 equivalent of the tactical rock. Everyone put their squat Marine characters  on elevated or scenic bases so they stood out. GW saw the trend and duplicated it; now it's tactical rocks everywhere. Blood Angel players put Death Company bits everywhere, GW saw the trend, and there we were.

 

Edit: Sorry for the double post, but it takes a while to type the big posts and I miss new posts while I do so.

Edited August 16 by jaxom

[DemonGSides]

 

Very true, but in part because I wanted to cover the 5th edition releases before the 7th edition releases. However, I'll do the short version now. The actual BA Tactical Squad wasn't nearly as influential as the Death Company kit, despite being a bespoke kit. The Blood Angels already had four years of a head start on fancier looking rank-and-file because of Death Company kit bits being used in conversions and kit bashes (and Sanguinary Guard bits, but they didn't get around as much). The BATS was the 2014 equivalent of the tactical rock. Everyone put their squat Marine characters  on elevated or scenic bases so they stood out. GW saw the trend and duplicated it; now it's tactical rocks everywhere. Blood Angel players put Death Company bits everywhere, GW saw the trend, and there we were.

 

Edit: Sorry for the double post, but it takes a while to type the big posts and I miss new posts while I do so.

 

I wasn't trying to insinuate anything with what I wrote there, other than that Lensoven shouldn't point to an unfinished post as proof of anything, and to let your words stand on their own.  I appreciate the effort you're going to with your posts.

 

Seems like it would be fair to say that the bling and ornamentation on BA wouldn't stand out if they were in any chapter; in contrast to the position that they should have LESS bling, as espoused by others.

GW, Free the bling for all chapters!

I'd also like to see some of your thoughts on Space Wolves and how their bits influenced all of this; you're saying that all of this kitbash fodder was super important to how GW did business and which is why the DC made the BATS happen, but meanwhile, Space Wolves have had a bunch of bespoke models and even full units in 2009, prior to the DC kit; I would consider them an army that has bling as an important part of their identity much like the BA, just different type of bling, obviously. Just an interesting different direction to think!

Edited August 16 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

@jaxom

great posts

cant wait for the next installment 

[Helias_Tancred]

If you look at the cover of the BA codex supplement from 9th (it will be used on the 10th ed. too) that is a Intercessor sergeant. He has clearly done or had some ornate work done on his armor outside of the standard Mark X suit of armor. I always liked that picture because it spoke volumes about the variances of "bling" on BA armor. It has to do with how long you've been in the chapter and personal preferences. A popular modification is sculpting a muscled torso onto the chest armor, as we've seen in countless examples. As far as I know, when a blood angel is inducted into the death company, his armor is painted black and saltires are added? So how ornate a death company marine is comes down to what his armor looked like before his induction? And it makes sense the chapter serfs or whoever might bling it up a little bit as befitting his induction and the sadness around it? More purity seals, scrolls, slapping a blood drop shaped gemstone with wings here or there? /shrug

 

The best way to figure this out is to go back and look at official GW artwork for Blood Angels and draw your conclusions from that?

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

If you look at the cover of the BA codex supplement from 9th (it will be used on the 10th ed. too) that is a Intercessor sergeant. He has clearly done or had some ornate work done on his armor outside of the standard Mark X suit of armor. I always liked that picture because it spoke volumes about the variances of "bling" on BA armor. It has to do with how long you've been in the chapter and personal preferences. A popular modification is sculpting a muscled torso onto the chest armor, as we've seen in countless examples. As far as I know, when a blood angel is inducted into the death company, his armor is painted black and saltires are added? So how ornate a death company marine is comes down to what his armor looked like before his induction? And it makes sense the chapter serfs or whoever might bling it up a little bit as befitting his induction and the sadness around it? More purity seals, scrolls, slapping a blood drop shaped gemstone with wings here or there? /shrug

 

The best way to figure this out is to go back and look at official GW artwork for Blood Angels and draw your conclusions from that?

 

Yes he has some ornamentation, that’s not the question at hand, it’s is there any art work to suggest your average/typical BA battle brother wears armor with a similar level of adornment as the most recent FBDC kit where the armor is absolutely cluttered with ornamentation, and the answer is in the overwhelming number of official art works that does not appear to be the case.

for the most part the brothers with that level of ornamentation appear to be veterans and chapter leadership/hero types.

 

looking at the art work is literally what we’ve been doing…

Edited August 16 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Helias_Tancred]

I would say no, normal Blood Angel marines don't normally have that level of ornamentation on their armor. The official artwork is the sherpa on this issue. That said I do think their armor gets "blinged up" more WHEN they are inducted into the Death Company.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I would say no, normal Blood Angel marines don't normally have that level of ornamentation on their armor. The official artwork is the sherpa on this issue. That said I do think their armor gets "blinged up" more WHEN they are inducted into the Death Company.

It makes no sense for their armor to get blinged up when they join the DC lol.

like they just have a bunch of extra Chackies just hanging around to hot glue to a brother’s armor in cases he falls to the rage?

 

they go into battle with the DC with the armor they have as it is with the exception of the black paint job.

[DemonGSides]

 

I would say no, normal Blood Angel marines don't normally have that level of ornamentation on their armor. The official artwork is the sherpa on this issue. That said I do think their armor gets "blinged up" more WHEN they are inducted into the Death Company.

 

I mean, Jaxom just did a great deep dive and I think the answer is; all space marine art is relatively blinged out. No chapter owns "We are the blinged out chapter."

 

What people have ignored is that there's the lore justification for why the average BA might have a more ornate or personalized armor, and it's due to their artisan and artificer nature, using the routine and focus to help way lay the Red Thirst.  Additionally it's mentioned that they are encouraged to customize armor and personal spaces from their induction, and often inherit dead battle brothers already modified wargear.

 

So yes, a brand new BA probably hasn't fully customized his own armor, but he could've easily inherited leg or shoulder armor that is already bedecked; I think most chapters work this way. BA just also spend a lot of time in craftsmanship, in a similar way to Salamanders. 

 

And when they fall, as you mentioned they don't get new armor. So the DC being blinged out is normal, and there's plenty of art that shows them having plenty of ornamentation. 

Edited August 16 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I mean, Jaxom just did a great deep dive and I think the answer is; all space marine art is relatively blinged out. No chapter owns "We are the blinged out chapter."

 

What people have ignored is that there's the lore justification for why the average BA might have a more ornate or personalized armor, and it's due to their artisan and artificer nature, using the routine and focus to help way lay the Red Thirst.  Additionally it's mentioned that they are encouraged to customize armor and personal spaces from their induction, and often inherit dead battle brothers already modified wargear.

 

So yes, a brand new BA probably hasn't fully customized his own armor, but he could've easily inherited leg or shoulder armor that is already bedecked; I think most chapters work this way. BA just also spend a lot of time in craftsmanship, in a similar way to Salamanders. 

 

And when they fall, as you mentioned they don't get new armor. So the DC being blinged out is normal, and there's plenty of art that shows them having plenty of ornamentation. 

No one is ignoring any lore.

there is no lore stating the blood angels like to dress their armor the same way a 12 year old girl with her first bedazzler dresses her clothes.

[DemonGSides]

 

No one is ignoring any lore.

there is no lore stating the blood angels like to dress their armor the same way a 12 year old girl with her first bedazzler dresses her clothes.

It's a good thing nobody claimed that.  There is lore that they make and modify their armor decoration. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

It's a good thing nobody claimed that.  There is lore that they make and modify their armor decoration. 

No one is debating that.

 

youre the one claiming that they need to have bling on their kneepads, shins, shoulder pads, helmets, and chest like the FBDC kit has, even though that’s clearly not the actual standard for your typical battle brother. That would be more in line with veterans, and it’s been pretty well established in this thread that those with musculature sculpted armor tend to be rather ‘bland’ by some players’ standards because the armor itself is the artwork.

 

so the complaints that new SG don’t have enough bling falls kind of flat, and the artwork shows that the typical brother isn’t as bejeweled as the FBDC kit would imply.

[Helias_Tancred]

 

It makes no sense for their armor to get blinged up when they join the DC lol.

like they just have a bunch of extra Chackies just hanging around to hot glue to a brother’s armor in cases he falls to the rage?

 

they go into battle with the DC with the armor they have as it is with the exception of the black paint job.

 

If you look at past artwork it does tend to get blinged up. But tbh we don't know for certain that it wasn't already like that except that for most of the artwork of them in red armor I don't see that level generally.

[Helias_Tancred]

We are all forgetting, or not mentioning that Blood Angels have always been explaiend as one of the most artistic of all chapters. It's been said in previous codexes that blood angels will often use that artistic skill on their armor. Make of that what you will. Again, imo the official artwork is the guide on this.

 

Lastly, I'm not even sure why we are arguing this, or why its an issue? ... You can look at the new models and make a hypothesis that GW is moving the Blood Angels away from this? idk.

 

 

[DemonGSides]

 

No one is debating that.

 

youre the one claiming that they need to have bling on their kneepads, shins, shoulder pads, helmets, and chest like the FBDC kit has, even though that’s clearly not the actual standard for your typical battle brother. That would be more in line with veterans, and it’s been pretty well established in this thread that those with musculature sculpted armor tend to be rather ‘bland’ by some players’ standards because the armor itself is the artwork.

 

so the complaints that new SG don’t have enough bling falls kind of flat, and the artwork shows that the typical brother isn’t as bejeweled as the FBDC kit would imply.

 

You've literally done nothing but debate it since the get go, brother.

 

The SG are ugly and basic.  Very little flair.  Very disappointing.

[Orion]

I see "bling" and "baubles" thrown around a lot, but that's a very reductive way to look at details and variety.

It's not just some kind of bauble fanclub hating on the new models.

 

GW designers should look at the best art of the unit, digest it, and work out how they can push that in the miniature scale.

Make the models larger, but make the details finer. 

They can do nice forms in plastic, and they can do more variety. That doesn't mean big bulbous details stuck all over them, and it's a weak argument.

They could have made a much better looking unit.

 

[Brother Raul]

I admire the attempt to quantify and qualify the qualities of the new kits but it's herding cats.

 

Ultimately the artwork v models sculp is the issue and is the same as tattoos. It just doesn't always translate.

 

Sure there's always the negativity barrier on the internet but maybe breaking it down kit by kit would help with this exercise?

 

Lemartes is being unfairly canned. It's bold, play on!

 

Problem for me is the SG kit; Looks like a chat bot imported files from the highest selling kit (stormcast) a assault kit and applied a BA filter. It's modular and sacrifices aesthetics.

 

The sales will dictate what happens next and a betting man would say it's going to be well below BT and DA's box sets.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

If you look at past artwork it does tend to get blinged up. But tbh we don't know for certain that it wasn't already like that except that for most of the artwork of them in red armor I don't see that level generally.

Only in artwork that came out at the same time or after the last FBDC kit really.

look at art of DC from AoD and 3rd Ed supp. They have minimal ornamentation.

 

this idea that blood angels are super duper blinged out is a relatively newer concept.

 

For the first 25 years BA weren’t super blinged out, that’s only been the perception for maybe 16 years now.

Edited August 17 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

You've literally done nothing but debate it since the get go, brother.

 

The SG are ugly and basic.  Very little flair.  Very disappointing.

SG have musculature sculptsed into their armor. Not basic.

they have unique and decorated weapons, not basic.

they have decorative blood drops on their chests, and jump packs, not basic.

they have wings sculpted onto their jump pack flaps, not basic.

 

 

Edited August 18 by Jolemai
Removed disrespect section

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I admire the attempt to quantify and qualify the qualities of the new kits but it's herding cats.

 

Ultimately the artwork v models sculp is the issue and is the same as tattoos. It just doesn't always translate.

 

Sure there's always the negativity barrier on the internet but maybe breaking it down kit by kit would help with this exercise?

 

Lemartes is being unfairly canned. It's bold, play on!

 

Problem for me is the SG kit; Looks like a chat bot imported files from the highest selling kit (stormcast) a assault kit and applied a BA filter. It's modular and sacrifices aesthetics.

 

The sales will dictate what happens next and a betting man would say it's going to be well below BT and DA's box sets.

I don’t think initial sales will really be the deciding factor for GW.

a lot of veteran players don’t like them due to the lack of cluttered baubles.

a lot of veteran players don’t like them because of the lack of wings.

 

but a lot of newer players use to the primaris aesthetics do like them, and as even more new players join the hobby as sons of sanguinius, they’ll likely have no problems with these SG, even if they look back at older kits and think the older ones were better, the new players will still more than likely buy this kit.

 

but who knows maybe if they’re an absolute flop in the first 3 months selling 1/10 of the kits they expected to, maybe GW will do an emergency redesign and add wings and some extra blood drops on the shins, and another scroll across the forehead, and rerelease SG next year.

Edited August 17 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Jolemai]

Out of interest, why this new acronym for the current DC kit given there's no Primaris DC kit? 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Out of interest, why this new acronym for the current DC kit given there's no Primaris DC kit? 

There is a primaris DC kit…it was literally revealed like 2 weeks ago.

[Brother Raul]

 

I don’t think initial sales will really be the deciding factor for GW.

a lot of veteran players don’t like them due to the lack of cluttered baubles.

a lot of veteran players don’t like them because of the lack of wings.

 

but a lot of newer players use to the primaris aesthetics do like them, and as even more new players join the hobby as sons of sanguinius, they’ll likely have no problems with these SG, even if they look back at older kits and think the older ones were better, the new players will still more than likely buy this kit.

 

but who knows maybe if they’re an absolute flop in the first 3 months selling 1/10 of the kits they expected to, maybe GW will do an emergency redesign and add wings and some extra blood drops on the shins, and another scroll across the forehead, and rerelease SG next year.

Saying sales won't be a factor is a bit naive Brother, especially when GeeDubs is concerned.

 

I've ordered the laurel wreathed helms from the previous kit, jump packs and I already had a spare standard so mine are looking a bit more like the description of the armour being a mish mash and want to keep the death mask for Dante IF they fix his rules (great sculps sell lots of models, great rules sell lots AND lots).

 

I am using the jump packs for other BA characters that should have JPs. With all the drama about how polarising the sculps have been the loss of the JPSP is actually huge for the models sales and will definitely require a datasheet in 11th.

 

Of all the photos getting posted here the most important is this one.

 

Think it ends this argument.

Edited August 17 by Brother Raul
Spellinking