BA, armor, and artistry

[Brother Raul]

As a secondary point glueing on a icon or relics often covers parts I'd like to highlight. This is another problem with modular kits as you loose depth of contrast because you are covering thigh plates with relics.

 

My sergeants have this issue in spades.

 

I love putting the BA book bag on the sergeant as a prayer book but when I add a icon both are covered. If these were sculpted on it would be better for everyone.

[Jolemai]

 

There is a primaris DC kit…it was literally revealed like 2 weeks ago.

 

Really? To "everyone else" it's an upgrade sprue for JAI. Just like DCI use the BA Primaris upgrade kit with Intercessors.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Saying sales won't be a factor is a bit naive Brother, especially when GeeDubs is concerned.

 

I've ordered the laurel wreathed helms from the previous kit, jump packs and I already had a spare standard so mine are looking a bit more like the description of the armour being a mish mash and want to keep the death mask for Dante IF they fix his rules (great sculps sell lots of models, great rules sell lots AND lots).

 

I am using the jump packs for other BA characters that should have JPs. With all the drama about how polarising the sculps have been the loss of the JPSP is actually huge for the models sales and will definitely require a datasheet in 11th.

 

Of all the photos getting posted here the most important is this one.

 

Think it ends this argument.

I said initial sales.

if they underperform long term sure GW might change things, but poor sales in the first month probably won’t make much difference, especially if the sales pick up throughout the year.

 

 

Really? To "everyone else" it's an upgrade sprue for JAI. Just like DCI use the BA Primaris upgrade kit with Intercessors.

 

You can throw a fit about it ‘not being good enough’ but that doesn’t change the fact it’s the new DC kit.

[Blindhamster]

theres a blood angel upgrade kit that GW are suggesting we use for DC and is marketed in a DC box to go alongside the two DC themed characters.

I still legitimately think we WILL eventually see an actual death company update, probably in 11th with a new codex, because it seems theres not much left to update for us (much like ravenwing for dark angels)

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

theres a blood angel upgrade kit that GW are suggesting we use for DC and is marketed in a DC box to go alongside the two DC themed characters.

I still legitimately think we WILL eventually see an actual death company update, probably in 11th with a new codex, because it seems theres not much left to update for us (much like ravenwing for dark angels)

 

 

A year from now if someone walks into a game store and asks an employee for a death company box, will this new unit be what an employee shows them to, or will that employee say something like “oh I’m sorry there are no more death company, GW stopped making them a year ago, but we have this other kit that can be used as death company.”?

[jaxom]

 

I would say no, normal Blood Angel marines don't normally have that level of ornamentation on their armor. The official artwork is the sherpa on this issue. That said I do think their armor gets "blinged up" more WHEN they are inducted into the Death Company.

 

I trawled through Angels of Death, Index Astartes: Blood Angels, and the codexes. 2nd edition states skull and blood icons are applied to Death Company armour while their most familiar weapons, painted red. It's a bit hard to tell if the armour is not their original and the icons are added as part of the ritual induction into the Death Company; this is an issue all the descriptions later will have as well. No other editions reference the application of icons to armour. The 3rd edition states that upon induction into the Death Company is that they, as per 2nd, "don suits of jet-black armour," emblazoned with blood-red saltires. The 5th edition codex added that the armour will be "hung with scrolls that proclaim deeds performed and honours earned before the onset of madness." Personally, I think only piece from the plastic 5th edition DC kit matchs that description, the pair of legs used for these two:

 

 

So yes, a brand new BA probably hasn't fully customized his own armor, but he could've easily inherited leg or shoulder armor that is already bedecked; I think most chapters work this way. BA just also spend a lot of time in craftsmanship, in a similar way to Salamanders. 

 

Related to @Orion's post, it's useful to recognized that ornamentation is not the same as artifice or craftsmanship. On of the first things I did when gather images for my posts was look for Salamander images for comparison, because of reasons you point out. Ironically, because they didn't get a lot of attention from Kopinski and Smith, most of their art is fairly plain. The Forge-Father He'stan art in 5th edition is probably the most ornate, and the 6th edition art -which is the actual art as part of the model development- was by Paul Dainton and can be seen in an earlier post.

 

 

 

If you look at past artwork it does tend to get blinged up. But tbh we don't know for certain that it wasn't already like that except that for most of the artwork of them in red armor I don't see that level generally.

The art is all over the place, often depending on the artist. This goes at least as far back as 2nd edition: Angels of Death has a lot of art that is high fidelity to the models... except for the John Blanche art. 

 

To get directly to your point, here's the side-by-side by era:

 

 

 

 



 

Third Edition

 



 



Death Company on the left, Rank-and-File in the middle and on the right

 



 

Peronally, if not for the saltires on the bottom right image, I wouldn't know those Death Company compared to the other black-and-white images.

 

Fifth Edition





Enhance!



 



 



 



 



 

But we also have the Kopinski and Smith art. Within that sample, Death Company don't stand out as any more ornate. Normal Assault Marine on the left, Death Company on the right.



To provide more context on how over the top Kopinski and Smith were compared to the rest of the images: here's two pictures of Tycho from the codex; I think the left is Alex Boyd, and the right is definitely Adrian Smith.



Not from the codex, but a higher resolution coloured version



 

7th Edition



 





Again, personally, I don't see much a difference in level of ornateness.
 

 

What's also interesting in the 7th edition Codex is the model pages. As many have noted, 7th saw the release of the Blood Angel Tactical Squad. I don't think the models show an appreciable difference in ornamentation/ornateness now that all infantry have default access to that level, rather than having to raid the DC kit for bits.

 

There's more open armour spacing on the Tactical Marines, but I think that's solely because they don't have the ties on the legs.

 

Ooph, what I meant to be simple reply turned into another chapter in my growing essay on Blood Angels.

Edited August 17 by jaxom

[Helias_Tancred]

This thread is like hamsters running at top speed in a wheel that goes nowhere, and some fat pimply-faced 12 year old kid is peering at us being very entertained! lololololol ...

 

In the end my opinion on your OP IL is that for a long time they were mostly one way, and now with the new releases they are moving away from that look with a certain two units? Going forward I think everyone on both sides of this issue will be happy because there are ample bits out there now and will be made by 3d printer barons that will allow you to bling up your DC and SG, and those that prefer a plainer look are liking the new releases.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17 by Helias_Tancred

[Helias_Tancred]

 

 

I trawled through Angels of Death, Index Astartes: Blood Angels, and the codexes. 2nd edition states skull and blood icons are applied to Death Company armour while their most familiar weapons, painted red. It's a bit hard to tell if the armour is not their original and the icons are added as part of the ritual induction into the Death Company; this is an issue all the descriptions later will have as well. No other editions reference the application of icons to armour. The 3rd edition states that upon induction into the Death Company is that they, as per 2nd, "don suits of jet-black armour," emblazoned with blood-red saltires. The 5th edition codex added that the armour will be "hung with scrolls that proclaim deeds performed and honours earned before the onset of madness." Personally, I think only piece from the plastic 5th edition DC kit matchs that description, the pair of legs used for these two:

 

 

Related to @Orion's post, it's useful to recognized that ornamentation is not the same as artifice or craftsmanship. On of the first things I did when gather images for my posts was look for Salamander images for comparison, because of reasons you point out. Ironically, because they didn't get a lot of attention from Kopinski and Smith, most of their art is fairly plain. The Forge-Father He'stan art in 5th edition is probably the most ornate, and the 6th edition art -which is the actual art as part of the model development- was by Paul Dainton and can be seen in an earlier post.

 

The art is all over the place, often depending on the artist. This goes at least as far back as 2nd edition: Angels of Death has a lot of art that is high fidelity to the models... except for the John Blanche art. 

 

To get directly to your point, here's the side-by-side by era:

 

 

 

 



 

Third Edition

 



 



Death Company on the left, Rank-and-File in the middle and on the right

 



 

Peronally, if not for the saltires on the bottom right image, I wouldn't know those Death Company compared to the other black-and-white images.

 

Fifth Edition





Enhance!



 



 



 



 



 

But we also have the Kopinski and Smith art. Within that sample, Death Company don't stand out as any more ornate. Normal Assault Marine on the left, Death Company on the right.



To provide more context on how over the top Kopinski and Smith were compared to the rest of the images: here's two pictures of Tycho from the codex; I think the left is Alex Boyd, and the right is definitely Adrian Smith.



Not from the codex, but a higher resolution coloured version



 

7th Edition



 





Again, personally, I don't see much a difference in level of ornateness.
 

 

What's also interesting in the 7th edition Codex is the model pages. As many have noted, 7th saw the release of the Blood Angel Tactical Squad. I don't think the models show an appreciable difference in ornamentation/ornateness now that all infantry have default access to that level, rather than having to raid the DC kit for bits.

 

There's more open armour spacing on the Tactical Marines, but I think that's solely because they don't have the ties on the legs.

 

Ooph, what I meant to be simple reply turned into another chapter in my growing essay on Blood Angels.

 

I got into 40k and Blood Angels were my first army back in early 6th edition. Those pics and those like them were my guides for building and painting my collection. Certainly not Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, or Raven Guard. Before that era, I'll have to take other members words on that because my knowledge is lacking.

 

/shrug

 

 

Edited August 18 by Helias_Tancred

[Helias_Tancred]

 

A year from now if someone walks into a game store and asks an employee for a death company box, will this new unit be what an employee shows them to, or will that employee say something like “oh I’m sorry there are no more death company, GW stopped making them a year ago, but we have this other kit that can be used as death company.”?

 

Good point but ... I think it will be an excellent opportunity for a situational awareness assessment combined with an IQ test to see if the new customer recognizes any similarities with the primaris death company kit and current existing space marine kits? ;)

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18 by Helias_Tancred

[jaxom]

 

 

I got into 40k and Blood Angels were my first army back in early 6th edition. Those pics and those like them were my guides for building and painting my collection. Certainly not Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, or Raven Guard.

Completely understandable. The other chapters had equally over the top art. My thesis is the Death Company kit better allowed Blood Angel players to actually convert/build models more resembling the art, and thus setting a precedent for Blood Angels looking fancier.

[Blindhamster]

 

A year from now if someone walks into a game store and asks an employee for a death company box, will this new unit be what an employee shows them to, or will that employee say something like “oh I’m sorry there are no more death company, GW stopped making them a year ago, but we have this other kit that can be used as death company.”?

i doubt there will be a death company box you can get in store.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

i doubt there will be a death company box you can get in store.

Literally the the kit they previewed 2 weeks ago.

[Blindhamster]

 

Literally the the kit they previewed 2 weeks ago.

They didn’t preview a kit.

 

they previewed an upgrade sprue, which will be sold separately and probably only available online pretty quickly. 
 

look at the dark angels and black templars ones for example. 

[Paladin777]

An upgrade sprue that is pretty unimpressive, tbh. 
 

I've never been a fan of keychains and have never put more than one unhelmeted head in a squad. That's over half the bits right there!

 

the evisorator's cool, but DC thunder hammers are also cool, heavy, two-handed weapons!

[Helias_Tancred]

 

An upgrade sprue that is pretty unimpressive, tbh. 
 

I've never been a fan of keychains and have never put more than one unhelmeted head in a squad. That's over half the bits right there!

 

the evisorator's cool, but DC thunder hammers are also cool, heavy, two-handed weapons!

 

As a guy who now has just one 40k collection, and its Black Templars, I've gone through 3 upgrade kits, and they're good. IMO they did the best job on the Dark Angels upgrade kit, and the worst job, so far, on the Blood Angels one, sorry to say. :(

 

 

 

[Jolemai]

Just a reminder that the Bolter and Chainsword exists to promote constructive and respectful debate at all times. The Moderation Team should not have to remove caustic and borderline toxic comments from Frater who disagree with one another. 

 

Play nice please.

[DemonGSides]

 

Related to @Orion's post, it's useful to recognized that ornamentation is not the same as artifice or craftsmanship.

 

That is, quite literally, my point. Lore (which was the context of what you quoted), puts them both as artificers. However one side has been represented as of being Marshal artifice (the salamander and their weapon forging) while the BA does it for other reasons. 

[Paladin777]

If slightly flawed. None of us are in love with the company. We love 40k (which is actually a real bugger when you think about it), and are pissed when the company that produces it does dumb things. 
 

Edit: for clarity, the (slightly flawed) comment I was addressing has been removed for reasons I'm unaware of. 
 

I just want to avoid confusing people.

Edited August 18 by Paladin777

[Helias_Tancred]

 

If slightly flawed. None of us are in love with the company. We love 40k (which is actually a real bugger when you think about it), and are pissed when the company that produces it does dumb things. 

 

Amen Brother Paladin777! Preach on ...

 

 

[jaxom]

My patience with dealing with the back and forth on the Blood Angel revamp hit a low. This will be shorter. 

 

The Blood Angels are the reverse of the normal progression when it comes to ornamentation; at least within the command portion of the Chapter. The higher up one gets, the less ornamentation one's armor has. Instead, the armour itself becomes more ornate and closer to heroic nudity.

 

The trend was established early one with the original Blood Angel Captain (compared to his peers). The armour then influenced Dante's armour. By 5th edition, the artistic portrayal and models clearly show this compared to Codex Poster Child Calgar.

 

 





 

 

This carried through to their bodyguard units.

 



 

 

The art for Sanguinary Guard is very interesting, to me, because they're Stormcast Prosecutors (or Stormcast Prosecutors are them).

Enhance!

Here's the thing; I think that was supposed to be a new Dante. He's the only golden armored individual on the cover, and has Dante's classic weapon loadout. Regardless, the armour is exceptionally plain.

 

The interior art, however, is definitely Sanguinary Guard. And exceptionally plain compared to other art in the book (which you can see in previous posts).

 

5th edition



7th edition

The 7th edition picture really leans into the artifice of the armour as portraying heroic nudity. Each muscle group in the thigh is there. It also shows a minutiae of filigree on the gauntlet and pauldron which would never be possible on a 28 or 32 mm scale model. The 5th edition art shows what I think was supposed to be the SG pauldron. It has the central blood drop in a circular area, and surrounded by upswept wings (and those I suspect were inspired by medieval and renaissance art of seraphim), but within the area of a normal Marine pauldron. I think it wasn't possible with the tech GW had, so the wings became very large. The 7th edition art, based on the actual models, brings the rest of the SG into scale with the pauldron.

[jimbo1701]

Personal theory is that we are creeping towards ‘comprehensive’ replacements for firstborn units, anticipating that the space wolves release will have a similar upgrade sprue, more primaris characters and at least one kit, likely a 3-man bodyguard kit (wolf guard?) like the other 2 divergent chapters (templars got lucky in this regard) 

 

When we hit 11th ed the tactical and devastator kits will be retired, along with some of the small primaris upgrade sprues (ones that are now in combat patrols) and the likes of vanguard and assault terminators will get the primaris treatment. 
 

At this point I suspect that the divergent chapters will get a few more primaris characters to go with their book releases and (hopefully) a generic kit that better suits them, so that everyone feels compelled to replace some of their line troops with the shiny new goodness. For example, a robed Tacticus kit for dark angels, embellished Tacticus armour usable as both intercessors and death company for blood angels, and a successor to the space wolves pack kit. Basically what templars already got. (Can’t help but feel the Templar refresh set the standard and releases since have fallen short of that)

Edited August 26 by jimbo1701

[lansalt]

 

The Blood Angels are the reverse of the normal progression when it comes to ornamentation; at least within the command portion of the Chapter. The higher up one gets, the less ornamentation one's armor has. Instead, the armour itself becomes more ornate and closer to heroic nudity.

As you say, heroic nudity is a type of ornamentation on its own and GW was limited by the tech of past years. However the problem with the new BA minis like SG is that instead of aiming for heroic nudity they just look like plain golden marines with vaguely super hero spandex suit pects. Even the abs plate is inside the belt line like fabric instead of over it. The new captain is halfway there but still in the proper side of what it should be except for the pects.

[ThaneOfTas]

 

For example, a robed Tacticus kit for dark angels, embellished Tacticus armour usable as both intercessors and death company for blood angels, and a successor to the space wolves pack kit. Basically what templars already got. (Can’t help but feel the Templar refresh set the standard and releases since have fallen short of that)

Getting something like that (provided it is actually done well) would certainly ease my bitterness. I've made mention before that believe that the Intercessor kit is due for a re-fresh in 11th to coincide with the retirement of the Firstborn Tactical squad. If when they do this they could go back to something that is actually modular and less cookie cutter that would also be fantastic, then throw in some successors to the BA Tactical kit/Death company kit along with the other chapters equivalents and i would be a happy camper once more.

 

Of course considering just how far short of my expectations GW has a habit of falling, any BA Intercessor kit would probably just be the bog standard one with a single upgrade sprue packed in it, that you pay full price for.

[Blindhamster]

I don’t see us going back to the old style bodies and legs - which for me is a good thing.

 

that said they could change the design to have the abdominal section be part of the pelvis and then have just the chest plates be a separate piece which would allow for chapter specific chest pieces.

[DemonGSides]

Well ideally it wouldn't be a chest upgrade, right?  It'd be a full bespoke kit.  No need to worry if it matches up with intercessor parts, because it's going to be a full "Blood Angels Intercessor Kit".  And it could be really cool bespoke pieces (Artisan and Artifice), while also having some scavenged older pieces, since the BA have been, supposedly, the guardians of Imperium Nihilus while G-Man has being running around doing whatever.  So there's precedent for mixing it older marks of gear (We had to raid old forge worlds for armor pieces (Convenient excuse for GW to capitalize on nostalgia grognards)), while also giving out a bespoke kit that doesn't lean on the original intercessor kit.  Then, you could buy regular intercessor kit and the upgrade kit and do the little upgrades if you like your BA to be more reserved and standardized, and then those of us who liked having guys who looked like walking art museums can have it the way we like it too.  Best of both worlds.

 

Lots of lore hooks that GW could explore that I feel are being really abandoned (Or at least left to rot), since they don't do much to explore the setting unless it's got a model release tied into it, and since they phoned in this release, very little lore seems to be added with all the new stuff beyond "Sanguinary Guard got more mass produced look because we didn't pick up the dead bodies of the sanguinary guard that died during Devastation of Baal (Not to mention Dante's been running around finding The Lion during this same time period and the new SG were never mentioned)", which, fine, whatever, but is so boring as far as expanding "What do the Blood Angels look like Post-Devastation, Post-Primaris, Post-Cicatrix and Dante's coronation as Warden, and what does half of the imperium that has so little back up compared to the rest look like?

We get Leviathan that has Tyranids sprouting up (Another "Marketing needs") and then BACK to Pariah Nexus (Cuz we also didn't finish that story from last edition), DA get some crumbs about Lion bouncing around, and BA get not much (I haven't read the lore of the codex, but you'd think SOMEONE would be talking about it if there were any major revelations).

Maybe someday.