Golden Demon Golden Demon SPIEL (2024) to ban AI-generated content / further revisions

[Noserenda]

I dunno, id assume for a high end painting competition that you would be making the backdrop rather than printing it off, especially using something as cancerous as AI image "creation"

[Marshal Rohr]

You shouldn’t be using backdrops in a miniature painting competition unless it’s hand painted anyway. It’s a miniature painting competition. 

[Captain Coolpants]

So you can use a stock photo back drop, but not an AI one? Neither are your work, so what's the issue lol

 

I suppose in further reflection, you could take a picture of your stock photo backdrop and model, to generate a better backdrop image that's more impressive that moulds around the model better I guess.... 

 

 

But you could also argue you could do that with photoshop, which yes requires manual input, but is still a program doing the actual ones and zeros. I dunno haha

Edited August 20 by Captain Coolpants

[Focslain]

 

 

Call me an old curmudgeon but using decals on models is older than Warhammer itself. That's as much part of the modelling hobby as any other thing imho.

 

Then also ban 3d printed/digital designed sculpts/parts. Only green stuffed minis allowed. New tools will allow new techniques to evolve and people get upset by them. Lots of people were (and still are) calling airbrushing "cheating" for example. 

 

Are there problems with AI art? Abso-:cuss:ing-lutely. But putting up a few trees which also could've been rendered by taking a photograph and printing it isn't that big a deal imho.

I'm not against the use of decals/3d printing, but I don't think they should score as high as free-hand/sculpting. I've done all of these and the digital versions are slightly easier and more forgiving of mistakes then physical media.  

 

 

 

You shouldn’t be using backdrops in a miniature painting competition unless it’s hand painted anyway. It’s a miniature painting competition. 

Pretty much this. A really good background (immaterial of source) can distract from the center piece. At least for non-scenic displays there is no reason for a backdrop. 

[Orange Knight]

 

To make matters worse; Neil did an interview after the fact where he hard-core chugged the AI-bro juice and called all the people criticising him "virgins". It really did not help.

 

I remember this.

 

And he also claimed that spending some time typing in different keywords was a difficult job.

[phandaal]

 

Pretty much this. A really good background (immaterial of source) can distract from the center piece. At least for non-scenic displays there is no reason for a backdrop. 

 

Listening to that podcast, turns out he thought he might get disqualified for even having a background at all. And apparently he did a lot of touching up with paint, varnishing etc. on the background once it was printed out. He just thought GW might say any kind of printed stuff is forbidden.

 

Edit: also turns out the "virgins" thing was specifically in reference to some people who direct messaged him with comments along the lines of he should turn in all of his paintings trophies for the crime of using AI. He thought those people might be spending a little too much time online and not enough time in the real world. 

 

Edited August 20 by phandaal

[Evil Eye]

I actually don't dislike AI art, and think it's both a fun interesting toy for making heehoo funny pictures and a very useful tool for inspiration/eliminating tedious busywork in "manual" creative work (case in point, texturing for 3D models- Perlin Noise and other procedural generation systems have been used for decades, and if you want, say, a basic rock texture for a minor asset in a game or something then having an AI generate "red sandstone texture at X resolution" is quicker and produces no worse a result than manually painting it yourself). But for miniature painting, something that's explicitly an analogue process, it does seem like cheating and I understand the ruling.

[Magos Takatus]

If I personally wanted to enter a painting competition I don't think I'd use a backdrop at all. I don't think I'd manually paint a backdrop skilfully enough and I'm certainly not going to fall back on another person's work. I'd also argue the more you add to a miniature in a miniature painting competition the more you are distracting away from the subject matter. It's a bit different if it is a diorama category but otherwise it's smoke and mirrors distracting away from your model.

[Redcomet]

 

If I personally wanted to enter a painting competition I don't think I'd use a backdrop at all. I don't think I'd manually paint a backdrop skilfully enough and I'm certainly not going to fall back on another person's work. I'd also argue the more you add to a miniature in a miniature painting competition the more you are distracting away from the subject matter. It's a bit different if it is a diorama category but otherwise it's smoke and mirrors distracting away from your model.

One of my close friends is a world class award winning painter, he paints busts and large scale models, and a backdrop can enhance the model you are working on, and most importantly add to the story you are trying to tell with the mini. And when you paint on the level he does, story is one the things the judges look at.

[SkimaskMohawk]

If the rules allow printed back drops then it's a kinda dumb restriction. 

 

Ban people from entering some terms and receiving the image they want, and force them to instead...enter some terms and receive the image they want. 

 

 

[grailkeeper]

 

If the rules allow printed back drops then it's a kinda dumb restriction. 

 

Ban people from entering some terms and receiving the image they want, and force them to instead...enter some terms and receive the image they want. 

 

 

Indeed. If that was the case, how could they tell when they see the model physically before them?

[NovemberIX]

That's what I'm saying, if you want nothing but hand painted backdrops that's fine, go ahead and ban generative images, but also ban anything printed. Because unless you're gonna ask for a copy of the raw psp's, you'd never know what was what, and even then it doesn't take much an artist to edit a generative image to something that works better for them, which I'd say is transformative, and if that's good enough for the IP courts, then it should be good enough for a painting competition.   

Not that it matters to me, we all know I can only paint one color, and it's straight out the bottle

[Corswain]

Good stance. I consider AI in any kind of creative/artistic endeavour to be wrong.

[LameBeard]

The rules used to insist on standard bases and said the judges would ignore anything over and above the standard base - so that if that rule were in force I think that would apply to any backdrop too?

[Indy Techwisp]

A thought.

 

What if this ban isn't to ensure fair competition, or GW taking a side in the ongoing AI Stans vs AI Haters conflict or whatever, but instead GW taking steps necessary to protect Brand IP?

 

Like, consider this:
If the AI Generated backgrounds are allowed, where's that line drawn regarding what's in them?

Could someone Generate a Parade of Space Marines for a background and that be allowed?

If they did, can they ensure those Generated Marines match up to GW's IP standards?

What if a generated element includes something recognisably from another IP, say, generating Stormtroopers in the background of an Imperial Guard entry?

 

You'd need to write so many edge case rules and regulations to allow AI Generated content while also conforming to the standards GW hold the Golden Demon competition and the IP at large to.

Or alternatively, you could just write one line saying "No AI" and not need to worry about any of the above happening.

[Wormwoods]

 

Or alternatively, you could just write one line saying "No AI" and not need to worry about any of the above happening.

I think it's safe to assume that if any company is anti-AI (which is the correct stance) it's for IP reasons rather than, y'know, the sanctity of the artform. Maintaining human involvement in the hobby, anything like that. 'No' is a nice, easy way to nip that in the bud. 

[MithrilForge]

I'd have banned anything that doesn't fit on the base size of the model... geez, just say paint a model on a base "this size" and enter it... Golden Demon has got way too over the top nowadays.... (OK  yes the models are great but... it should have always been playing pieces in a comp not "this piece will never be touched after this comp and put in a cabinet for the rest of my days"... long live Magmatrax  (the playable GD winner)

and what's with the losers complaining about how something else was painted... sorry but it sounds like serious whiners to me, you entered a model it was judged...you didn't win accept it and move on 

 

M 

  

[Magos Takatus]

 

I'd have banned anything that doesn't fit on the base size of the model... geez, just say paint a model on a base "this size" and enter it... Golden Demon has got way too over the top nowadays.... (OK  yes the models are great but... it should have always been playing pieces in a comp not "this piece will never be touched after this comp and put in a cabinet for the rest of my days"... long live Magmatrax  (the playable GD winner)

and what's with the losers complaining about how something else was painted... sorry but it sounds like serious whiners to me, you entered a model it was judged...you didn't win accept it and move on 

 

M 

  

I mean, maybe next year I'll enter and have a small fireworks display rigged to go off when the judges scrutinize the model. Maybe that will add some shock and awe to my modelling project? It might even distract away from the fact that I can't paint at a competition level! 

[Domhnall]

My personal take would be that a background is an 'enhancer' to a miniature, in that it give the miniature more visual impact. I don't agree that anything that enhances the miniature that is not the miniature should be allowed for judging*. This includes any background at all: be it printed AI, printed photo, even paint on canvas. I'm even a bit on the fence regarding elaborate bases, especially when the base is bigger than the figure itself  (unless it's an open category or duel where there is a story being told).

 

* - Purely for judging. If you want a background for displaying, fine, but it needs to be removable for judging so the miniature itself can be judged in isolation. 

[Domhnall]

 

I mean, maybe next year I'll enter and have a small fireworks display rigged to go off when the judges scrutinize the model. Maybe that will add some shock and awe to my modelling project? It might even distract away from the fact that I can't paint at a competition level! 

 

BBC News: '...Harrowing sight today at the annual warhammer painting competition, where one of the participant's entries utilised a real miniature flamer on their Infernus squad. Onlookers were shocked when the flamer effect got out of hand setting fire to the judges beard, melting the display case, and igniting the adjacent participants fireworks rigged to their ork Rokkit Launcha. The ensuing chaos and panic caused £1000's of damage, 10 injuries from trampling, and the reek of burnt facial hair: although this was deemed a positive over the miasma of sweaty bodies.'

'As he was being taken away by the police the Marine participant was quoted as saying "Purge the xenos scum!".'

'Back to you in the studio.'

Edited August 21 by Domhnall

[Indy Techwisp]

 

The ensuing chaos and panic caused £1000's of damage

 

So that's about 1 Warlord Titan getting burnt or around 20 plastic kits.

 

All in all, not that much destroyed quantity wise.

[Magos Takatus]

Oh, I love this community. 

[grailkeeper]

 

I mean, maybe next year I'll enter and have a small fireworks display rigged to go off when the judges scrutinize the model. Maybe that will add some shock and awe to my modelling project? It might even distract away from the fact that I can't paint at a competition level! 

You joke but fancy resteraunts put sparklers or smoke on dishes to enhance how they look. Might be cool to do with a mini. Can't be thst hard to rig up a vape to give a fog effect can it?

[NovemberIX]

 

You joke but fancy resteraunts put sparklers or smoke on dishes to enhance how they look. Might be cool to do with a mini. Can't be thst hard to rig up a vape to give a fog effect can it?

Only if the marines are color coded to match the flavor of the vape, Ultramarines are of course blueberry bubblegum

[Orion]

 

I'd have banned anything that doesn't fit on the base size of the model... geez, just say paint a model on a base "this size" and enter it... Golden Demon has got way too over the top nowadays.... (OK  yes the models are great but... it should have always been playing pieces in a comp not "this piece will never be touched after this comp and put in a cabinet for the rest of my days"... long live Magmatrax  (the playable GD winner)

and what's with the losers complaining about how something else was painted... sorry but it sounds like serious whiners to me, you entered a model it was judged...you didn't win accept it and move on 

 

M 

  

 

I guess?

I don't really care much about Golden Demon, or competitions in general, but when I was young I fondly remember a scratchbuilt Baneblade by Paul Cairncross.

You can make it a competition about putting perfect gradients on every muscle on skink, but I'll remember the scratchbuilt Baneblade 25 years later.
Will people remember the same of the skink?

 

 

Zero sympathy for the AI backdrops though.