Codex compliant chapters and non-Codex compliant chapters? Is one the lesser?

[Helias_Tancred]

I've been in the hobby since 2012 or so. In that time I've collected/played Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels ... after a full hobby sell-off and hard reset back in October, my relatively new, and only collection are Black Templars. For the vast amount of my time in the hobby I've played non-codex compliant chapters.

 

That being said, is there a general feeling among 40k space marine fans that the non-codex compliant chapters really get the shine, whereas the codex compliant ones do not? As in better rules, more lore support (looking at you GW writers and Black Library), more characters (duh) and unique units, etc etc. Outside of personal preferences on chapter, a better collection choice?

 

I think I know my opinion on this question from my own observations and experiences, but I wanted to toss this question out here and see what others think? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I know going forward I want to do one more space marine collection, so I've been really evaluating all facets in terms of which chapter that will be, and I've been coming to my own realizations and conclusions. I'm very interested in what the rest of you think. Perhaps for starters is it even a legit question or issue that I raise?

 

Thanks.

 

Edited August 20 by Helias_Tancred

[NovemberIX]

I used to feel like the non-codex chapters were a sorta marines+1, but by and large, it's not that one is lesser or greater, but that they're just different flavors of vanilla ice cream. Like, codex SM is your standard no frills no extra name vanilla, BA could be Vanilla Bean, DA Country Vanilla, BT Double Vanilla, and I guess that leaves SW as French Vanilla; to continue to torture this metaphor, the named chapter are where there's some more flavor, but still mostly vanilla with other stuff added.  It's when you divorce the rules from the mini's and DIY a marine army that there's really choices in other flavors, but I am deeply biased, and if I'm gonna be honest, out of date. I don't play primaris, most of my army has been legended, and I haven't played a real game of 10th, so my opinion deserves many grains of salt.

[Helias_Tancred]

You definitely get kudos points for your vanilla ice cream analogy! ... appreciated your reply. Succinct and to the point.

 

 

[jaxom]

I won’t have time for a real reply until later, but I am also interested in what others think. I definitely have An Opinion

[Grotsmasha]

I have thoughts, have to type on an onscreen keyboard for now, will come back to the topic when I can

[Wormwoods]

My personal take is that Codex/non-Codex is entirely secondary to official/custom. I'm thoroughly of the opinion that people should be designing their own chapters, their own characters, and exploring the sort of storytelling you can really sink into with your own take on what a chapter can be. Maybe that's more-or-less Codex Compliant, maybe it isn't, but so long as it's yours I think that's always going to be more interesting than Yet Another Dark Angels Army or whatever. 

 

On the topic at hand, though, it's always been funny to me what counts as non-Codex. On an organisational level the Iron Hands are thoroughly non-compliant with the Codex Astartes, they're led by their techmarine analogues, split into clans rather than companies, but on the tabletop they're generally just run as normal space marines with maybe that one special character. White Scars are divergent, but when was the last time you could play them as anything but standard space marines? Or at all, given the miniscule number of bike models currently available. 

 

 

[Indy Techwisp]

 

<snip> (Quoting OP)

 

Codex Divergent Chapters (and Ultramarines) definitely get more toys, since they also get all the base LSM units on top of their bespoke units.

 

 

On the topic at hand, though, it's always been funny to me what counts as non-Codex. On an organisational level the Iron Hands are thoroughly non-compliant with the Codex Astartes, they're led by their techmarine analogues, split into clans rather than companies, but on the tabletop they're generally just run as normal space marines with maybe that one special character. White Scars are divergent, but when was the last time you could play them as anything but standard space marines? Or at all, given the miniscule number of bike models currently available. 

 

I'm still annoyed White Scars lost the Khan on a Bike this edition.

[Orange Knight]

In the tabletop wargame itself, the non compliant chapters are definitely Marines +1 in every sense of the word.

 

They have all the same options as the generic chapters, but they also have access to additional characters, units, stratagems and detachments. Currently the best performing chapters are also the non-compliant ones, so they gain an advantage in rules more often than not.

 

I'm aware the Space Wolves aren't in a great spot, but they have also not received a range refresh and Primaris upgrade at this point in time - this will most certainly come in the future.

 

in my opinion GW has been dropping the ball in this aspect for many years. I actually love the idea of chapter themed units, however these should be replacements of certain generic options and not simply more additions.

There is also failure in regards to the lore, because some of the "compliant" chapters found in the main codex are anything but. The Iron Hands (as mentioned above) should be as different as any if their rules reflected the lore, and if they had models to back this up.

[Indy Techwisp]

 

In the tabletop wargame itself, the non compliant chapters are definitely Marines +1 in every sense of the word.

 

They have all the same options as the generic chapters, but they also have access to additional characters, units, stratagems and detachments. Currently the best performing chapters are also the non-compliant ones, so they gain an advantage in rules more often than not.

 

I'm aware the Space Wolves aren't in a great spot, but they have also not received a range refresh and Primaris upgrade at this point in time - this will most certainly come in the future.

 

in my opinion GW has been dropping the ball in this aspect for many years. I actually love the idea of chapter themed units, however these should be replacements of certain generic options and not simply more additions.

There is also failure in regards to the lore, because some of the "compliant" chapters found in the main codex are anything but. The Iron Hands (as mentioned above) should be as different as any if their rules reflected the lore, and if they had models to back this up.

 

GW scrapping the entire Firstborn Bike Range also means it's actually impossible to play White Scars as they operate in Lore.

 

While the whole "no SubFactions" thing makes sense for 10th, LSM still have them and really unless your Base LSM army is Ultramarines (and thus you have Bobby G), there's no real reason to run a specific chapter of LSM because none of the other named and chapter locked Characters make up for the lack of any chapter specialists or Primarch equivalent. 

[Orange Knight]

We actually have a funny but extremely flawed ruleset where Dark Angels and Space Wolves are the only armies able to effectively run the White Scars detachment.

 

It effectively illustrates how the divergent Chapters are simply Marines +1

[jaxom]

Originally, there were trade offs. Andy Chambers and that generation wasn't afraid to have rules absolutely -and randomly- hamstring an army.

 

4th and 5th edition was definitely a high mark for the Codex Compliant chapters. Ultramarine special characters, ironically, showing how they're not like the rules-codex but even better. A good system for making your own Chapter that wasn't perfectly Codex Compliant, but not from one of the Big 3 gene-lines. However, I think that system is what led to the problem's we have the modern era. Custom chapters avoided their flaws by leaning into specific compositions; so why even have negatives if they won't matter? Give everyone everything... and we saw how that has turned out. Whoever has the best Chapter-specific characters and/or rules are the Marine+1 of the day. 

 

I've always been an advocate of Counts-As when it comes to rules for a Chapter and I don't see any reason to end it. I see no reason a White Scar player shouldn't be using Ravenwing rules for White Scar biker units. I see no reason why a Carcharadon or Raven Guard player shouldn't use Death Company rules to represent the Sable Mark. I see no reason why an Imperial Fist player shouldn't use Emperor 's Champion rules to represent a Feast of Blades Champion. I see no reason why a Black Templar player shouldn't use Inner Circle Knight rules to represent Knightly Terminators. I hope that eventually the Marine rules are truly chapter agnostic and instead we have exemplar Characters and Units for specific detachments.

 

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

I've always been an advocate of Counts-As when it comes to rules for a Chapter and I don't see any reason to end it. I see no reason a White Scar player shouldn't be using Ravenwing rules for White Scar biker units. I see no reason why a Carcharadon or Raven Guard player shouldn't use Death Company rules to represent the Sable Mark. I see no reason why an Imperial Fist player shouldn't use Emperor 's Champion rules to represent a Feast of Blades Champion. I see no reason why a Black Templar player shouldn't use Inner Circle Knight rules to represent Knightly Terminators. I hope that eventually the Marine rules are truly chapter agnostic and instead we have exemplar Characters and Units for specific detachments.

 

That's exactly how I feel. In the end, things like Schizo Marines and Jump Pack Honour Guard should be something available to everyone in the same way I have always argued that Dark Angels should have been granted access to Sternguard and Vanguard Vets. If the fluffbunnies don't want it, they don't have to take it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option though. 

[Tacitus]

 

That's exactly how I feel. In the end, things like Schizo Marines and Jump Pack Honour Guard should be something available to everyone in the same way I have always argued that Dark Angels should have been granted access to Sternguard and Vanguard Vets. If the fluffbunnies don't want it, they don't have to take it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option though. 

That's changing somewhat with the introduction of Primaris Sternguard, Bladeguard, and now Inner Circle Champions.  And while I understand the "fluff bunnies" not wanting the DA to have the X-Guard Veterans, that was also the tradeoff they had for getting Extra Terminators, etc.   That was how they weren't Marines +1.   They were Marines +1 and -1. 

[Indy Techwisp]

 

That's changing somewhat with the introduction of Primaris Sternguard, Bladeguard, and now Inner Circle Champions.  And while I understand the "fluff bunnies" not wanting the DA to have the X-Guard Veterans, that was also the tradeoff they had for getting Extra Terminators, etc.   That was how they weren't Marines +1.   They were Marines +1 and -1. 

 

Blade/Stern/Vanguard Veterans are usable in a DA army now tho.
They even get the rule that they gain Deathwing when taken by DA.

That said, out of all the Main LSM Chapters, Dark Angels have the biggest "Main Character Bias" vibes besides Ultramarines.

They get special bits of everything and everyone else's special thing.

 

They're a Prime Example of Divergent Marines being LSM +1 and I will forever be annoyed that DA get multiple special bike units that you can still buy from GW and White Scars lost the only one they ever had.

[HeadlessCross]

 

That's changing somewhat with the introduction of Primaris Sternguard, Bladeguard, and now Inner Circle Champions.  And while I understand the "fluff bunnies" not wanting the DA to have the X-Guard Veterans, that was also the tradeoff they had for getting Extra Terminators, etc.   That was how they weren't Marines +1.   They were Marines +1 and -1. 

They only got extra Terminators via taking Belial though. 

[Tacitus]

 

They only got extra Terminators via taking Belial though. 

No, Deathwing Terminator Squads were a thing for quite some time, and the Knights have been around for almost as long.  I don't mean they got to take extra units, I mean they had more Terminator Datasheets and were swapping this veteran data sheet for that terminator data sheet. 

[Subtleknife]

GW had a great opportunity to start afresh with marines and the various chapters. I feel they have entirely botched the implementation. The special snowflake chapters are marines+1 currently. They get access to more rules and more units. How GW thought this was a good idea is beyond me.

 

GW could have used the refresh to introduce some equity regarding units. First release a chapter master for all first founding, then a special character that fits the first founding theme ie Scars could get a biker, IH a techmarine etc. Then the next release could be a special unit for each first founding. Concurrently an upgrade sprue could be released for each first founding to give some flavour and upgrade specific units. So a terminator upgrade for DA etc.

 

As for rules, I still think the HH approach of all in one book was the better way to go. I also think detachments were a horrid idea. It makes it very hard to balance a unit if it is great in one detachment and mediocre in another. Rules should be only on the datasheet. That way if a Unit is strong or weak you can target it specifically without fear of interfering with anything else etc.

Edited August 28 by Subtleknife

[jaxom]

Yeah, that mirrors my thoughts… hence the homebrew rules linked in my signature.

[Helias_Tancred]

 

GW had a great opportunity to start afresh with marines and the various chapters. I feel they have entirely botched the implementation. The special snowflake chapters are marines+1 currently. They get access to more rules and more units. How GW thought this was a good idea is beyond me.

 

I'd love to see GW sales data showing precise sales data between the ranges that fall under the full space marines line AND what chapter the buyer was getting them for? lol. I guess one could "sort of" get an indication if they look also at the sales of Shrike, Feirros, Garadon, Korsarro Khan, and Agatone? I've been in the hobby since late 2012, but I'd still like to see which chapters are bought and played the most? My gut tells me Dark Angels are #1? Ultramarines are in the top 3? Because of all of their characters, and they are marketed as the standard marine chapter?

 

Its definitely a combination of models; how they look ... their rules, their lore, plus painting scheme even? By those standards the deviant chapters are definitely marines +1, actually some are marines+2 imo lol.

 

[Tacitus]

 

 

I'd love to see GW sales data showing precise sales data between the ranges that fall under the full space marines line AND what chapter the buyer was getting them for? lol. I guess one could "sort of" get an indication if they look also at the sales of Shrike, Feirros, Garadon, Korsarro Khan, and Agatone? I've been in the hobby since late 2012, but I'd still like to see which chapters are bought and played the most? My gut tells me Dark Angels are #1? Ultramarines are in the top 3? Because of all of their characters, and they are marketed as the standard marine chapter?

 

Its definitely a combination of models; how they look ... their rules, their lore, plus painting scheme even? By those standards the deviant chapters are definitely marines +1, actually some are marines+2 imo lol.

 

DA may be #1 right now, but my guess is UM have been #1 over average for a number of years in a row - BA had a heydey in there somewhere too.

[Blindhamster]

A couple years old, but this had BA most popular, I’m pretty sure when it comes to most popular chapters they’re commonly near the top, an interesting quirk I’ve seen with BA in particular is that the people that do them tend to stick with them even when rules kinda suck.

 

edit

forgot the 2 year old Reddit link

 

Edited August 31 by Blindhamster

[jaxom]

 

an interesting quirk I’ve seen with BA in particular is that the people that do them tend to stick with them even when rules kinda suck.

I think it’s because their special units have good mobility which lends itself to mission play.

 

And who doesn’t love renaissance super soldier vampires?

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I wonder if it factors in at all that of the big divergent chapters, Blood Angels are the army that looks the least "wrong" when using generic models. BA and DA look weird without tabards and hoods/robes and Wolves need skins and trinkets.

 

I guess if it DOES factor in, it's still not a major concern or everyone would just play Ultramarines or Imperial Fists.

[Tacitus]

 

I think it’s because their special units have good mobility which lends itself to mission play.

 

And who doesn’t love renaissance super soldier vampires?

Well the biggest problem is assuming subredit sizes are direct reflections of player base. 

[Helias_Tancred]

After doing a lot of thinking, I think my days of doing the Mary Sue chapters, or as some of you refer to them, Marines+1, are ending. Simple is better, less is better, not only in the product line but also the paint schemes. It is to me. I will reiterate what I stated before, there is a positive to only having one character (or two at most), and no chapter unique units that you have to sweat GW screwing up with each rules edition or point update! I even kinda like the fact there hasn't been a separate library worth of novels, novellas, short stories, and audio dramas done on most of the codex compliant chapters. As a player who also likes the lore/head canon side of his collection, it makes you feel like you have significantly more room to be creative. I like the fact Black Library hasn't done much 40k material on the chapters I've been considering :)

 

I definitely believe these days my current Black Templar collection falls under the Mary Sue criteria of space marine chapters+1, but I have FAITH  that will change when GW releases their 10th edition codex supplement ;)

 

Seriously though, its been 10+ years since I collected and played a regular codex compliant marine chapter (Crimson Fists back then), and now that I'm going to do one for my second collection (after my hobby hard reset), I've thought about things and come to realizations that I never had in that decade of doing huge Blood Angel and Dark Angel collections.

 

 

 

Edited September 3 by Helias_Tancred