Codex compliant chapters and non-Codex compliant chapters? Is one the lesser?

[Tacitus]

 

After doing a lot of thinking, I think my days of doing the Mary Sue chapters, or as some of you refer to them, Marines+1, are ending. Simple is better, less is better, not only in the product line but also the paint schemes. It is to me. I will reiterate what I stated before, there is a positive to only having one character (or two at most), and no chapter unique units that you have to sweat GW screwing up with each rules edition or point update! I even kinda like the fact there hasn't been a separate library worth of novels, novellas, short stories, and audio dramas done on most of the codex compliant chapters. As a player who also likes the lore/head canon side of his collection, it makes you feel like you have significantly more room to be creative. I like the fact Black Library hasn't done much 40k material on the chapters I've been considering :)

 

I definitely believe these days my current Black Templar collection falls under the Mary Sue criteria of space marine chapters+1, but I have FAITH  that will change when GW releases their 10th edition codex supplement ;)

 

Seriously though, its been 10+ years since I collected and played a regular codex compliant marine chapter (Crimson Fists back then), and now that I'm going to do one for my second collection (after my hobby hard reset), I've thought about things and come to realizations that I never had in that decade of doing huge Blood Angel and Dark Angel collections.

 

 

 

I've got one of each.  I've had UM for over 30 years, and picked up DA I forget when- I think it was fourth or fifth or sixth, they all blend together - the one where Belial made Terminators Troops, and Sammael did it for bikes.  Made it easy to do Double Wing and not have to collect Green Week overlap with my UM. 

[jaxom]

DIY chapters are great because you’re beholden to no one.

[Helias_Tancred]

 

DIY chapters are great because you’re beholden to no one.

 

I never really thought about that before ... but yeah that's appealing to me. I've thought of doing my own chapter as well?

 

 

[Sir Clausel]

 

DIY chapters are great because you’re beholden to no one.

Honestly even if you paint a certain chapter you are beholden to no one if youd asked me.

 

You can still make count as stuff. If i want to play as blood angels or dark angels with my black templars i absolutely can. As long as you tell your opponent whats what and its clear to see who is what there should be no problem. 

[Helias_Tancred]

Good point!

 

 

[TheArtilleryman]

For some reason I can’t quite explain, I’ve never been interested in collecting Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Deathwatch or Black Templars. The Space Wolves aesthetic has a certain appeal to me (apart from the actual wolves and Wulfen) but I’ve never quite got to the point where an army got started. 
 

Homebrew chapters are super cool though and this is where the most fun is to be had imo. Being able to run any scheme and use the rules for whichever chapter you like is awesome. You could do a White Scars successor and run it using the Ravenwing detachment if you want. It would be nice if there were some vanilla marine models/datasheets that would make this work better of course; outriders are pretty boring imo.
 

Are vanilla marines or divergent marines better? Throughout older editions I would have said divergent chapters were definitely at an advantage, but since 8th I feel like vanilla marines are much stronger and more viable with all their new toys putting them on par. Sure, individual special units are better for the divergents, but there are enough options in the codex for this not to matter too much.

Edited September 4 by TheArtilleryman

[Karhedron]

 

DIY chapters are great because you’re beholden to no one.

 

The other good thing about DIY Chapters is that you can run them as successors of different named chapters if you wish. You have a common core of infantry and tanks but you can add a squad of Sanguinary Guard and Death Company to run them as Blood Angels. The next week you can add a squad of TWC and Wulfen and run them as Space Wolves.

 

The best of all worlds.

[Helias_Tancred]

 

For some reason I can’t quite explain, I’ve never been interested in collecting Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Deathwatch or Black Templars. The Space Wolves aesthetic has a certain appeal to me (apart from the actual wolves and Wulfen) but I’ve never quite got to the point where an army got started. 
 

Homebrew chapters are super cool though and this is where the most fun is to be had imo. Being able to run any scheme and use the rules for whichever chapter you like is awesome. You could do a White Scars successor and run it using the Ravenwing detachment if you want. It would be nice if there were some vanilla marine models/datasheets that would make this work better of course; outriders are pretty boring imo.
 

Are vanilla marines or divergent marines better? Throughout older editions I would have said divergent chapters were definitely at an advantage, but since 8th I feel like vanilla marines are much stronger and more viable with all their new toys putting them on par. Sure, individual special units are better for the divergents, but there are enough options in the codex for this not to matter too much.

 

If I end up doing Raven Guard as my second collection, I will have collected/painted, and played all of my favorite chapters since I got into the hobby some 12-13 years ago. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Crimson Fists, now Black Templars, and Raven Guard. It was a running toss up between Raven Guard and Crimson Fists, but I was holding off on a decision until after the Blood Angels refresh was revealed. Because I strongly considered doing Blood Angels again, but the refresh just didn't motivate or inspire me, and I keep forgetting there were reasons why I decided to sell off my 12k collection back in October of 2023.

 

What initially motivates my choice is the chapter's lore; who they are and "their place" in the 40k genre. Is it something I personally identify with? The chapter's culture, values, doctrines, and behavior? Secondly, the primarch. Do I like their primarch? Would I follow their primarch into battle, or could I see myself being one of their sons? I personally insert myself into my choice.  I know, REAL hardcore nerdy stuff, but it comes from my many decades of being an avid AD&D'er I think?

 

I've also looked more close at second+ founding chapters for this choice. Angels Sanguine, Novamarines, and Knights of the Raven are some of my favorites.  I love their paint schemes and they all have solid lore and history.

 

 

 

Edited September 4 by Helias_Tancred

[Forté]

Currently, in game, the non-codex chapters with their own index/codex rules are generally Marines+ due to gaining access to extra units and characters.

 

As for vanilla chapters. I'm quite liking how detachments aren't locked to chapters. Want sneaky Ultrasmurfs. Go for it. Close range shooting Crimson Fists.. yup. Fast moving and mobile Imperial Fists... if you want.

 

But there's still issues where you can't really get the flavour of certain chapters without including named characters, which has bugged me since the late 90's and I can't see that ever changing.

[jaxom]

 

you can't really get the flavour of certain chapters without including named characters, which has bugged me since the late 90's and I can't see that ever changing.

One could get that flavor easier in this edition without having to take named characters. Unless you meant you can’t get flavor and be weighted to win because the units one takes in such manner are more points efficient.

 

For example, I could build a very characterful White Scar force using Outriders, ATVs, and Impulsor mounted squads; Bike Chaplains, embarked foot Characters, etc. It might not be the most optimal, but it’s not terrible.

[Forté]

 

One could get that flavor easier in this edition without having to take named characters. Unless you meant you can’t get flavor and be weighted to win because the units one takes in such manner are more points efficient.

 

For example, I could build a very characterful White Scar force using Outriders, ATVs, and Impulsor mounted squads; Bike Chaplains, embarked foot Characters, etc. It might not be the most optimal, but it’s not terrible.

 

Valid point, but it's rare to see Ultramarines without Calgar, Salamanders without Adrax, and so on. Would be nice to have some way to encourage players who want to create other characters without taking a hit on effectiveness or having to proxy.

 

Don't get me wrong; enhancements are something to make a character a little different. But they don't really encourage converting or kit bashing.

[INKS]

I have considered running UM a few times now. But if I did I would want Gulliman even though he is never taken right now. So I get that Calgar is good right now and so is always taken.

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

Valid point, but it's rare to see Ultramarines without Calgar, Salamanders without Adrax, and so on. Would be nice to have some way to encourage players who want to create other characters without taking a hit on effectiveness or having to proxy.

 

Don't get me wrong; enhancements are something to make a character a little different. But they don't really encourage converting or kit bashing.

And Warlord Traits + Relics were a great way to do that. Unfortunately, GW decided to listen to the neckbeards that stated it's too hard to balance those, so now not only are we stuck with making only box contents (yay three different weapons in a Tyranid Warrior squad!), but now you get less flavor to use to customize your character. 

[jaxom]

You won't find me disagreeing that the big 4 have more options. But a lack of special rules doesn't equate to a lack of rich, deep, meaningful lore to build a force or character around. The marine supplements detailed each Company and Captain for their respective chapters. Almost none of them had special rules. I do think the codex needs bike character options, but other than that I think it allows for a decent amount of flexibility among Captains, Lieutenants, and Chaplains.  There are currently about 27 different ways to build a Captain-model in the codex.

[Forté]

 

You won't find me disagreeing that the big 4 have more options. But a lack of special rules doesn't equate to a lack of rich, deep, meaningful lore to build a force or character around. The marine supplements detailed each Company and Captain for their respective chapters. Almost none of them had special rules. I do think the codex needs bike character options, but other than that I think it allows for a decent amount of flexibility among Captains, Lieutenants, and Chaplains.  There are currently about 27 different ways to build a Captain-model in the codex.

 

But even those 27 different builds don't cover the options a Captain should be able to take.

 

Captain wants a plasma pistol with a shield...nope.

 

Captain wants to drop in with his Inceptors...nope.

 

Fluff is great. But rules are now tied to available kit options. Just need 5 mins on this forum to see that there's plenty of gamers who are happy to kitbash for a unique character.

[HeadlessCross]

 

Captain wants to drop in with his Inceptors...nope.

That's part of why 8th and 9th edition had superior character rules. They weren't PERFECT but it clearly made more sense from a fluff standpoint of a commander actually COMMANDING some of their army instead of forgetting how to bark orders at another unit literally next to them. 

[jaxom]

 

 

But even those 27 different builds don't cover the options a Captain should be able to take.

 

Captain wants a plasma pistol with a shield...nope.

 

Captain wants to drop in with his Inceptors...nope.

 

Fluff is great. But rules are now tied to available kit options. Just need 5 mins on this forum to see that there's plenty of gamers who are happy to kitbash for a unique character.

 

I've made my peace with the fact Games Workshop makes rules for the models they produce and only for the models they . Kitbashing for unique character does not inherently mean working outside those rules. I think that summarizes what I'm trying to express. The sandbox is still very large, though smaller than it used to be, but the old sandboxes had a lot of the same problems regarding "How can I make a characterful army if GW won't give me special rules?"

 

If one does want to do so, to make an Inceptor Captain with Plasma Pistol and Relic Shield, homebrew or counts-as exist. 

 

 

That's part of why 8th and 9th edition had superior character rules. They weren't PERFECT but it clearly made more sense from a fluff standpoint of a commander actually COMMANDING some of their army instead of forgetting how to bark orders at another unit literally next to them. 

 

Even then, the Rules Team was trying to establish a particular vision of where characters could be found in the army. The original concept for Core (before it became a game balance dial) was Core units were the sorts of places you'd find the Captain or Lieutenant. "Captains don't babysit Razorbacks," to paraphrase. I do think the 10th edition rule is a bit restrictive and I'd be okay with a "pick X, Y, or Z type unit within 6" in the Command Phase" style rule; but I do like that it isn't possible for a single character to provide a 200-600% efficiency boost for an army.

[Galron]

I prefer to paint alternative paint schemes for my guys. You can look in the Raven Guard for my Angstrom army which I totally lost all interest in painting any marines over the recent challenge and failed. Right now I am slowly getting back into them and my Minotaurs. Currently looking at using Blood Angels for the Angstrom guys simply because of the Pop-tart detachment and have no real plan to use any of the BA specific units at this time, except maybe a Baal, because I love flame thrower tanks. My Minotaurs I am working on more steadily finishing up some assault intercessors and a phobos librarian and using Space Wolf rules due specifically because I have the Minotaur specific commander and the named dreadnought and as of now, SW are the only rules set that have rules that can field them. Got some parts on the printer plate I need to clean when I get home to see if they fit the new style terminators for a look I want to achieve.

 

Part of the fun of this hobby is the creative aspect and doing your own thing. Its why UM have such a bad rap and so many people roll their eyes when they see an army of them across the table or click away and find a new batrep on youtube if one of them is a UM. They have been posterboys for so long people are tired of seeing them. Now if you had some creative and cool paint scheme using UM rules then we are talking a different story.  

[Helias_Tancred]

On 9/15/2024 at 9:55 AM, Forté said:

 

But even those 27 different builds don't cover the options a Captain should be able to take.

 

Captain wants a plasma pistol with a shield...nope.

 

Captain wants to drop in with his Inceptors...nope.

 

Fluff is great. But rules are now tied to available kit options. Just need 5 mins on this forum to see that there's plenty of gamers who are happy to kitbash for a unique character.

 

I think if you normally play with a set group of friends, then those issues can be remedied. If you walk into game stores and play against random people or in tournaments then no, they are what they are unfortunately.

 

[Indy Techwisp]

On 9/15/2024 at 2:55 PM, Forté said:

 

But even those 27 different builds don't cover the options a Captain should be able to take.

 

Captain wants a plasma pistol with a shield...nope.

 

Captain wants to drop in with his Inceptors...nope.

 

Fluff is great. But rules are now tied to available kit options. Just need 5 mins on this forum to see that there's plenty of gamers who are happy to kitbash for a unique character.

 

Some of this is due to Model restrictions i.e. 10th's obsession with Units only matching model loadouts.

 

Others are clearly intentional gaps waiting to be filled with a new model at a later date (I expect a JP Gravis Captain to arrive when we get another JP Gravis unit, for example).

[Forté]

18 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Some of this is due to Model restrictions i.e. 10th's obsession with Units only matching model loadouts.

 

Others are clearly intentional gaps waiting to be filled with a new model at a later date (I expect a JP Gravis Captain to arrive when we get another JP Gravis unit, for example).

 

I don't disagree on that at all.

 

If I'm honest, a JP Gravis Lt is very situational. A standard Gravis Lt however is a silly mistake. Especially now that the Apothecary Biologis is basically costed as one, points wise. Not a great decision by the rules team there.

[DemonGSides]

7 hours ago, Forté said:

 

I don't disagree on that at all.

 

If I'm honest, a JP Gravis Lt is very situational. A standard Gravis Lt however is a silly mistake. Especially now that the Apothecary Biologis is basically costed as one, points wise. Not a great decision by the rules team there.

 

It fills the functional role, as well, which is handing out lethals to whoever they're attached to.  I doubt we'll see a Gravis LT as long as the Biologis does what they're supposed to.

[TheArtilleryman]

I don’t think we’ll see a jump pack gravis captain because it doesn’t fit with what gravis is meant to be. Slower moving and tougher, not flitting around everywhere. Yes, inceptors but no we don’t need another Captain datasheet.

[HeadlessCross]

One will always be better than the other, and it's why Chapters should only be strictly relegated to their Special Characters, and be able to mix and match them like in 5th in one big codex. I also don't believe most options and units need to be restricted in most senses. No, Dark Angels shouldn't be the only ones with a Plasma Cannon for their Terminators. No, Calgar isn't the only Chapter Master on foot that should have a bodyguard. 

 

Consolidation doesn't hurt any Loyalist Marine army, it only hurts the "non-codex" players that wanted preferential treatment with bespoke rules for anything and everything. Blood Angels players are the worst about this as they get mad at me for even having suggested that the Librarian Dread should've been an option for everyone. 

[Medjugorje]

On 8/20/2024 at 8:43 PM, Helias_Tancred said:

I've been in the hobby since 2012 or so. In that time I've collected/played Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels ... after a full hobby sell-off and hard reset back in October, my relatively new, and only collection are Black Templars. For the vast amount of my time in the hobby I've played non-codex compliant chapters.

 

That being said, is there a general feeling among 40k space marine fans that the non-codex compliant chapters really get the shine, whereas the codex compliant ones do not? As in better rules, more lore support (looking at you GW writers and Black Library), more characters (duh) and unique units, etc etc. Outside of personal preferences on chapter, a better collection choice?

 

I think I know my opinion on this question from my own observations and experiences, but I wanted to toss this question out here and see what others think? What are your thoughts on this?

 

I know going forward I want to do one more space marine collection, so I've been really evaluating all facets in terms of which chapter that will be, and I've been coming to my own realizations and conclusions. I'm very interested in what the rest of you think. Perhaps for starters is it even a legit question or issue that I raise?

 

Thanks.

 

How I see it is:

 

In early editions Black Templars, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves had their up and downs but used to be on focus by GW and the "normal" Marines were just there. In early 5th edition changed when Gw decided to make Ultramarines as the NO1. In addition there were a few Forgewolrd chapters who get some love. 

When GW released the Horus Heresy they  got the feeling that everyone wants and loves the first founding chapters and they finally ignored the Crimsons Fists and all Forgeworld chapters completely and were even in a mode to destroy the Black Templars while have a Flesh Tearer fan in the office - they used to be the only one not-1st founding chapter which got some love.

When NU GW (in 8th edtion) made surveys then they realised how much the people love the black templars... and so they changed their system again by ignoring the first founding chapters.