Returning Primarchs - Alive, Dead & Otherwise

[Alternis]

Ok taking this discussion thread away from the Sang guard post for obvious reasons we need an actual rumour discussion regarding returning Primarchs. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Do you have an actual rumor of a returning primarchs besides Val’s?

[Alternis]

So my take on this is pretty straight forward GW is at some point going to be bringing back ALL the Primarchs in some form or another. 
 

they retconned Horus’ soul being obliterated, and they’ve purposefully written it into lore that a Primarchs soul persists in the warp and can still be returned to their body so long as their body is still intact. 
 

we’ve seen this with both Guilliman AND Fulgrim

 

the other odd case of this is Alpharius and Omegon which is now also written into lore that they can split their soul and place it into one of their sons which essentially becomes a ‘true’ copy of the original, which means Alpharius and Omegon being killed means nothing as long as it’s written they split their soul before their deaths. 
 

It gives scope for Curze to return. 
 

the only grey area is Ferrus, who’s body is NOT intact, however Dorn did retrieve his head (skull) at the conclusion of the seige for what purpose we have been kept in the dark about and it’s unclear if Dorn still has possession of Ferrus’ head. 
 

finally Sanguinius, who’s soul is confirmed to be bound in the warp and performing miracles with his sons, and an unknown connection to the Sanguinor & The Black Angel, his body is repaired and intact in the golden sarcophagus on Baal. 

 

Do you have an actual rumor of a returning primarchs besides Val’s?

This is more a discussing of the rumours. 
 

im not bringing rumours to the table without a source

 

but Valrak’s rumours as stands is Fulgrim & Leman Russ returning next year (this edition) 

[Alternis]

Finally to top off my post. 
 

if I was to start any such rumour. 
 

Following GW’s trend with the big 4 returning for loyalist and chaos, we should see Dorn and Sanguinius return, after Leman Russ.

[ZeroWolf]

This thread is probably better served in the Amicus forum rather than news and rumours.

 

That being said, my stance is that Sanguinius will come later than other primarchs due to him being dead is important (your mileage may vary here). There's easier primarchs to return than ole Sangy (especially considering the first signs of a Crovax retcon).

 

I believe that GW will bring every primarch back they can, chaos or otherwise, because they love that money they bring in but I still think they'll leave the hardest ones to justify till last, and that includes Sangy.

[Alternis]

 

This thread is probably better served in the Amicus forum rather than news and rumours.

 

That being said, my stance is that Sanguinius will come later than other primarchs due to him being dead is important (your mileage may vary here). There's easier primarchs to return than ole Sangy (especially considering the first signs of a Crovax retcon).

 

I believe that GW will bring every primarch back they can, chaos or otherwise, because they love that money they bring in but I still think they'll leave the hardest ones to justify till last, and that includes Sangy.

If so, I would kindly request an Admin to move it over there, as I’m rarely in that section to know it’s meant to go in there. 

 

My apologies otherwise

[Alternis]

 

This thread is probably better served in the Amicus forum rather than news and rumours.

 

That being said, my stance is that Sanguinius will come later than other primarchs due to him being dead is important (your mileage may vary here). There's easier primarchs to return than ole Sangy (especially considering the first signs of a Crovax retcon).

 

I believe that GW will bring every primarch back they can, chaos or otherwise, because they love that money they bring in but I still think they'll leave the hardest ones to justify till last, and that includes Sangy.

I understand the viewpoint. 
 

But that would mean leaving one of the big 4 loyalist focus groups with nothing until the end, being one of GW’s most popular factions, I just don’t see them doing that, also it would mean having to expand the codex compliant chapters, meaning more supplement codexes have to be created. 
 

Returning Sanguinius, logistically speaking is easier then bringing back a Primarch for the compliant chapters, Dorn can be done easily by attaching him to black templars but having rules to be included in imperial fist armies.

 

for most people commenting it’s a Lore issue (which has already been cleaned up in lore recently) but for GW it’s a finance and logistic issue which is nothing but great for them

[lansalt]

Valrak has only "confirmed" a 40k Fulgrim, with Russ being his educated guess to keep a loyalist/traitor parity. Nothing more.

 

Everything else is just baseless speculation that could go either way. After giving the main 5 loyalists and CSM factions centerpiece minis, GW probably has no need to do more. And those do not need to be necessarily all primarchs.

Regarding Russ, the SW got a recent novel literally about him not returning yet, and I have the feel that SW aren't as popular as they were decades ago and many of their units are going to Legends just like it has happened to many old SM characters and units.

 

[grailkeeper]

How long ago is it since we got the first Primarchs back? 7 years. Not much going since then. It'd be decades before they're all back. I can see Fulgrim coming back but not so much the rest. Possibly the surviving traitors but not so much the loyalists. Less is more and having them back diminishes the setting. It changes it from epic warfronts of millions of worlds to a family squabble. The mystique of the missing ones will always be better than whatever story brings them back. The dead ones really really really should stay dead. Otherwise they turn into a superhero story where nothing is of any real consequence and the characters are only dead until next week.

[Varyn]

I don’t play 40k or closely follow the lore, but it would heavily undermine the impact and gravitas of primarchs dying during the Horus Heresy if they simply come back to life in the future.

 

 

[Alternis]

 

Valrak has only "confirmed" a 40k Fulgrim, with Russ being his educated guess to keep a loyalist/traitor parity. Nothing more.

 

Everything else is just baseless speculation that could go either way. After giving the main 5 loyalists and CSM factions centerpiece minis, GW probably has no need to do more. And those do not need to be necessarily all primarchs.

Regarding Russ, the SW got a recent novel literally about him not returning yet, and I have the feel that SW aren't as popular as they were decades ago and many of their units are going to Legends just like it has happened to many old SM characters and units.

 

If space wolves get the same treatment as blood angels, that will upset the space wolves fans a huge amount HOWEVER!! 
 

if they do the refresh right and we’re talking dark angels right, it could boost space wolves into being a more popular army, especially with a returning Primarch. 
 

my speculations when it comes to returning Primarch’s is always looking at trends. 
 

GW tested the water with Magnus, then with Guilliman, next with Mortarion and it was success after success. 
 

Now they are upping the pace and we seem to be getting 1 daemon, 1 loyalist Primarch and edition now with Angron and Lion. 
 

so it stands to reason they would keep this up with 1 daemon and 1 loyalist this edition, with all the signs pointing to Fulgrim, and we’ve had many teases last year about something big coming for Space wolves, with Valraks rumours (even with his trademark like, rumours are lies until proven by GW) but I tend to trust Valraks rumours because for the virtual the most part his source has been pretty accurate, so I’m inclined to follow the rumours and the trend, we are getting Fulgrim and Leman end of this edition. 
 

if this does turn out to be the case it reinforces my viewpoint of GW is now following a trend with returning Primarchs. 
which follows 2 rules. 
 

Rule #1 - One Daemon Primarch & One Loyalist Primarch to return every edition

 

Rule #2 - The returning Primarch’s focus should be for the Big 4 chaos alignments and the Big 4 Loyalist divergent chapters. 

[Alternis]

 

How long ago is it since we got the first Primarchs back? 7 years. Not much going since then. It'd be decades before they're all back. I can see Fulgrim coming back but not so much the rest. Possibly the surviving traitors but not so much the loyalists. Less is more and having them back diminishes the setting. It changes it from epic warfronts of millions of worlds to a family squabble. The mystique of the missing ones will always be better than whatever story brings them back. The dead ones really really really should stay dead. Otherwise they turn into a superhero story where nothing is of any real consequence and the characters are only dead until next week.

Yea decades. 
 

thats a good business plan to keep profits up and gold in Gw’s pockets for that amount of time, its a no brainer for them financially

[ZeroWolf]

Primarchs make GW too much money for them to stop after Fulgrim. We've already seen that they will go money first then sort out the lore afterwards.

 

Of course, I wouldn't object to currently returned primarchs getting new models as I reckon they could make a much better job of Roboute now than they originally did.

[Karhedron]

The Chaos Primarchs are easy to return as they never really left, just took refuge in the Eye. We have had lore during Psychic Awakening hinting that both Fulgrim and Lorgar had been seen in Imperial space. Perturabo has not been mentioned yet but could return just as easily. We think that one of Alpharius/Omegon survived the Heresy so could potentially return although the whole point of the Alpha Legion is that they are so fractured they likely would not acknowledge their Primarch anymore. After all, they are all Alparius!

 

Curze and Horus are less likely. Curze has a deathwish by the end and allowed an Imperial Assassin to decapitate him. TEATD still ends with the Emperor perma-killing Horus. I don't think anything has changed there so his return remains unlikely. Abaddon has modelled to closely resemble Horus and is pretty much a proxy for him. I don't think you could have Horus Ascended in the game for the same reason you can't really have the Emperor. The rest of the armies become kinda irrelevant.

 

On the loyalist side, things are a bit more complex:

• Corax, last seen kicking Lorgar's golden backside in the Eye of Terror but has mutated and gained new powers. Could easily return.
• The Khan was last seen chasing Drukhari raiders into the Maelstrom. Probably now lost somewhere in the Webway. Given that time runs different there, he could easily return at any time thinking that only a few days had passed.
• Vulkan, last seen during the War of the Beast. Believed to have been killed but given his Perpetual powers, he could still respawn and simply shrug it off as taking a bit longer than usual.
• Russ, vanished on a quest to find the Tree of Life and heal the Emperor. His armour was found so if he is still alive, he is probably naked and cross.  May have died but his final words were a promise to return in "The Wolf Time". The problem is that none of his retainers returned from the same quest so it is unknown how his final words could have reached the Chapter. Best listed as missing but could potenitiall return.
• Dorn. Apparently killed boarding the Chaos Warship "Sword of Sacrilege" in an effort to stall the 1st Black Crusade. Originally his charred skeleton was recovered by the Imperial Fists but this has been retconned to just his skeletal fist being recovered. Intriguingly, Praetorian of Dorn shows Dorn cutting off Alpahrius's hands before killing him in their duel. We also know from Unremembered Empire that the Primarchs are so close that only a very detail genetic analysis can distinguish them. This means that if Dorn wanted to disappear for some reason, he had the means to fake his own death. My favourite head-canon is that Dorn is undercover somewhere on a secret mission and the IF Chapter Masters have been engraving their names on Alpharius' bones for the last 9000 years. 
• Sanguinius. Very dead. It would take a whole lot of shenanigans to justify his return. Not saying it will never happen but I expect him to be near the back of the list.
• Ferrus. If anyone is deader than Sangy it is poor old Ferrus. His head was served to Horus on a platter by Fulrgim while a few other body parts were used by his traumatised sons. His ghost was summoned by the Emperor during MoM and by Horus during TEATD2.

[Scribe]

When (yep, when) GW bring the Emperor and Sanguinius back to 40K, you can well and truly know they have hit rock bottom. Intellectually, creatively bankrupt, and the setting will have been circling the drain for years at that point.

 

Those are the facts, its not up for debate.

 

You are welcome.

[Alternis]

 

The Chaos Primarchs are easy to return as they never really left, just took refuge in the Eye. We have had lore during Psychic Awakening hinting that both Fulgrim and Lorgar had been seen in Imperial space. Perturabo has not been mentioned yet but could return just as easily. We think that one of Alpharius/Omegon survived the Heresy so could potentially return although the whole point of the Alpha Legion is that they are so fractured they likely would not acknowledge their Primarch anymore. After all, they are all Alparius!

 

Curze and Horus are less likely. Curze has a deathwish by the end and allowed an Imperial Assassin to decapitate him. TEATD still ends with the Emperor perma-killing Horus. I don't think anything has changed there so his return remains unlikely. Abaddon has modelled to closely resemble Horus and is pretty much a proxy for him. I don't think you could have Horus Ascended in the game for the same reason you can't really have the Emperor. The rest of the armies become kinda irrelevant.

 

On the loyalist side, things are a bit more complex:

• Corax, last seen kicking Lorgar's golden backside in the Eye of Terror but has mutated and gained new powers. Could easily return.
• The Khan was last seen chasing Drukhari raiders into the Maelstrom. Probably now lost somewhere in the Webway. Given that time runs different there, he could easily return at any time thinking that only a few days had passed.
• Vulkan, last seen during the War of the Beast. Believed to have been killed but given his Perpetual powers, he could still respawn and simply shrug it off as taking a bit longer than usual.
• Russ, vanished on a quest to find the Tree of Life and heal the Emperor. His armour was found so if he is still alive, he is probably naked and cross.  May have died but his final words were a promise to return in "The Wolf Time". The problem is that none of his retainers returned from the same quest so it is unknown how his final words could have reached the Chapter. Best listed as missing but could potenitiall return.
• Dorn. Apparently killed boarding the Chaos Warship "Sword of Sacrilege" in an effort to stall the 1st Black Crusade. Originally his charred skeleton was recovered by the Imperial Fists but this has been retconned to just his skeletal fist being recovered. Intriguingly, Praetorian of Dorn shows Dorn cutting off Alpahrius's hands before killing him in their duel. We also know from Unremembered Empire that the Primarchs are so close that only a very detail genetic analysis can distinguish them. This means that if Dorn wanted to disappear for some reason, he had the means to fake his own death. My favourite head-canon is that Dorn is undercover somewhere on a secret mission and the IF Chapter Masters have been engraving their names on Alpharius' bones for the last 9000 years. 
• Sanguinius. Very dead. It would take a whole lot of shenanigans to justify his return. Not saying it will never happen but I expect him to be near the back of the list.
• Ferrus. If anyone is deader than Sangy it is poor old Ferrus. His head was served to Horus on a platter by Fulrgim while a few other body parts were used by his traumatised sons. His ghost was summoned by the Emperor during MoM and by Horus during TEATD2.

Ok ok I gotta clean up a few bits here 

 

so Dorn has 2 bits of lore regarding his ending and I think you’ve got the 2 mixed up 

 

retconned lore - he was killed, body recovered and encased in amber 

current lore - missing, not dead, hand recovered. 
 

Now interestingly enough, they gave us a TON of lore regarding when he went missing during the assault on the VS, he was whisked away to khornes desert to be corrupted, he was only freed when the emperor cast off his humanity and the dark powers he gathered. If he’s been trapped there again it’s gonna take some awesome writing to free him! 
 

Also as for Russ, his guard unit the 13th great company who went into the warp with Leman Russ, has actually started returning to the setting but they are full on werewolf mode, I mean like FULL Wulfen, and Ragnar has been on the search looking for them before the Inquisition/Grey Knights do. 
also after some digging Russ has a vision (much like the Lion) telling him to search for the seed of the tree of life, turns out the ‘tree of life’ in some eldar lore referred to Isha, who’s currently in Nurgles mansion so it’s widely believed Russ is in Nurgles garden looking for Isha and was trapped 

 

that is until the events of Godblight

[ZeroWolf]

It's also worth pointing out that Perty has been mentioned in the context of the Vashtorr white Dwarf stories, and if I recall the two are working together.

 

Crovax has also had something added in to the Raven Guard section of last years space marine art book. That bit was about rumours that Crovax was actually in his tower now. A possible hook for a return if GW wanted to. Clearly they took inspiration from Andy Chambers in never being too tidy with things in case you want to do something with it later (my example here is from Andy writing about making 3rd edition necrons and expanding on the C'tan, first mentioned in a bit in the 2nd edition rule book as being beyond the gates of Va'al).

 

So, the pieces in place to bring back all the not-dead primarchs at least. Ferrus...not sure what they could do with a skull to be fair?

[Gamiel]

 

My favourite head-canon is that Dorn is undercover somewhere on a secret mission 

- I admire yor luck Mr...

- Dorn, Rogal Dorn.

Edited August 26 by Gamiel

[Alternis]

 

It's also worth pointing out that Perty has been mentioned in the context of the Vashtorr white Dwarf stories, and if I recall the two are working together.

 

Crovax has also had something added in to the Raven Guard section of last years space marine art book. That bit was about rumours that Crovax was actually in his tower now. A possible hook for a return if GW wanted to. Clearly they took inspiration from Andy Chambers in never being too tidy with things in case you want to do something with it later (my example here is from Andy writing about making 3rd edition necrons and expanding on the C'tan, first mentioned in a bit in the 2nd edition rule book as being beyond the gates of Va'al).

 

So, the pieces in place to bring back all the not-dead primarchs at least. Ferrus...not sure what they could do with a skull to be fair?

This ties into a lot of what I’ve been saying about the next chaos Primarch to return after Fulgrim

 

i honestly reckon they are setting up Perturabo to return after Fulgrim, with Vashtorr being his patron. 
 

and let’s be real if Perturabo is coming back you gotta bring back Dorn, it would be heresy not to. 
 

which brings us full circle 

all big 4 chaos Primarch returned

1 alternative chaos Primarch return 

 

but only 3 of the big 4 loyalist Primarchs returned at that point. 
 

There would be 1 left. 
 

Then the focus on Corax, Jaghatai, Vulkan. 
speaking of, here’s what I reckon on these 3 coming back. 

I suspect Jaghatai has been held in Commoragh, and we may or may not see him until Drukhari get their big faction focus with Asdrubael vect model coming back, maybe? 

 

Corax is still hunting down Daemon Lorgar (his Daemonic form description is pretty epic btw, true undivided daemon forms always tend to be pretty cool) so most likely they will come back at the same time. 
 

That just leaves Vulkan, which we’ve discovered he’s learned how to harness Orks power of making imagination reality. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

- "How would you like your Martini, Mr. Dorn?"

- "Shaken, not stirred."

[Alternis]

 

- "How would you like your Martini, Mr. Dorn?"

- "Shaken, not stirred."

“Stalwart, not broken” 

[ZeroWolf]

 

This ties into a lot of what I’ve been saying about the next chaos Primarch to return after Fulgrim

 

i honestly reckon they are setting up Perturabo to return after Fulgrim, with Vashtorr being his patron. 
 

and let’s be real if Perturabo is coming back you gotta bring back Dorn, it would be heresy not to. 
 

which brings us full circle 

all big 4 chaos Primarch returned

1 alternative chaos Primarch return 

 

but only 3 of the big 4 loyalist Primarchs returned at that point. 
 

There would be 1 left. 
 

Then the focus on Corax, Jaghatai, Vulkan. 
speaking of, here’s what I reckon on these 3 coming back. 

I suspect Jaghatai has been held in Commoragh, and we may or may not see him until Drukhari get their big faction focus with Asdrubael vect model coming back, maybe? 

 

Corax is still hunting down Daemon Lorgar (his Daemonic form description is pretty epic btw, true undivided daemon forms always tend to be pretty cool) so most likely they will come back at the same time. 
 

That just leaves Vulkan, which we’ve discovered he’s learned how to harness Orks power of making imagination reality. 

Or maybe he isn't hunting Lorgar  as I mentioned above, they may have already started the retcon machine on that.

[Alternis]

 

Or maybe he isn't hunting Lorgar  as I mentioned above, they may have already started the retcon machine on that.

Well whether they do or not. 
 

I’ll be surprised to see what weapon the emperor gives him, seeing as the running trend at the moment also with returning Primarchs is a warp awakened power and a piece of wargear that the emperor somehow manages to materialise into their possession. 
Guilliman being the exception because he took the sword and his power seemingly is being able to house the emperors being in his body without being burned alive by the sheer power of it (an assumption on my point) 

 

Guilliman - Emperor Possession + Emperor’s Sword 

 

Lion - Forest Walk + Emperor’s Shield 
 

Sanguinius - Feathers Can open tears in Space/Time + ??? 
 

Leman Russ - Howl that counteracts psychic powers (likely to double down on this making his howl buff allies and nerf psykers) + Dionysian Spear
 

Dorn - ??? + ???

 

Vulkan - Orks innate power + ???

 

Corax - Shadow Raven Form + ???

 

jaghatai - Weapons he wields can be channeled to bring true death to Daemons + ???

 

 

[Alternis]

Also Kahedron I dunno if you’re watching this thread but in response to your last post on the last thread. 

 

I know my Arthurian legend and I am aware of that scene but apart of that nod to the OG, exactly what relevance would it have to 40K purely on that basis? Literally none. 
The only reason to include that is because it would have some relevance to 40K in some fashion. 

 

Now while The Chalice/Grail, Spear of Telesto, and the Candelabra which has a lot of connotations associated with Sanguinala (a 40K style Christmas celebration and the worship of Sanguinius who died to save us from the heresy) 

 

You could argue, that they could reference, Spear = Russ, Chalice = Sanguinius, Candelabra = ??? Dorn maybe? 
 

But let’s not forget the emperor was trying to tell the Lion something, some sort of message he was trying to convey to him that he didn’t want the chaos entities overhearing him, that was the whole point of including this Arthurian scene, it wasn’t pointless with just a nod to the original Arthurian mythology, there was a POINT  something that we as the reader we’re not made privy too, something 40K related not Arthurian legend related, and this is the point that people miss in trying to argue counter to this 

[Nephaston]

 

 

• Sanguinius. Very dead. It would take a whole lot of shenanigans to justify his return. Not saying it will never happen but I expect him to be near the back of the list.
• Ferrus. If anyone is deader than Sangy it is poor old Ferrus. His head was served to Horus on a platter by Fulrgim while a few other body parts were used by his traumatised sons. His ghost was summoned by the Emperor during MoM and by Horus during TEATD2.

 

 

Sanguinius could also be done in a fashion where the halves of him that fight in the warp could be manifested via Sanguinor and Mephiston. Have it kind of be a Morathi deal where you can have both of them be living characters, and the separate warp entity each represents.

Could be sold as a kit like the dragon brothers or the slaanesh twins from AoS.

 

Ferrus as the Primarch of the Legion of the Damned would be an easy way to sell ANOTHER damn marine faction, and screw over IH players.

 

Curze just sitting in the Corona Nox, waiting for either a worthy bearer or for it to shatter, only to be twisted into an avatar of the raptor god to do more "justice".

 

Horus I could see as a meat marionette, maybe under the control of Be'lakor, both to haunt the loyalists, and to taunt and undermine Abaddons authority. Classic self defeating chaos.

 

 

Edited August 27 by Nephaston