Returning Primarchs - Alive, Dead & Otherwise

[Orange Knight]

People say Sanguinius is very dead but at this point I'm not so sure. Maybe his body is... or was?

Forgive me, but doesn't lore exist that states his body is held in a sarcophagus that is kept by the Blood Angels chapter? Snippet from the novel "Red Fury" - 

"Inside the copper halo lay the glowing heart , living and yet dead, forever in motion but always still. The Golden Sarcophagus was not a casket in any conventional sense of the word. It was a sphere of molten gold, rippling and flowing, pendant in an invisible stasis envelope generated by unknowable technologies buried beneath the stonework. In the ebb and flow of the fluid form, one might imagine they could see brief conjunctions of motion that suggested a face, a countenance of most pure and handsome aspect.

Contained within a globe of suspended time, the mantle of liquid metal had never been allowed to cool and solidify, not once in ten thousand years; for beneath it lay the flesh of the Emperor's son, the Great Angel and Lord of the Blood, Master of IX Legiones Astartes, primarch among primarchs, the most noble Sanguinius."

 

As for his soul - Sanguinius has been an active character that exists in the warp and has appeared in two recent novels; "The Devastation of Baal" and "Darkness in the Blood"

 

There is enough there to lay the foundation for a possible return, whether people want it or not.

 

All that being said, I think Leman Russ will be the next loyalist to return. I also think it would be extremely clever if GW release two version of Fulgrim in 40k; the corrupted, true Chaos Primarch and a loyalist variant of Clonegrim that was recovered in a deal between Cawl and Trazyn the Infinite.  The loyalist version could be allowed to serve the Imperium once more under strict supervision and with suitable insurance (like an explosive device in his skull that monitors for Chaos influence and Heresy in the mind). I would love an official version of this fan invented scene:

[Karhedron]

 

I know my Arthurian legend and I am aware of that scene but apart of that nod to the OG, exactly what relevance would it have to 40K purely on that basis? Literally none. 
The only reason to include that is because it would have some relevance to 40K in some fashion. 

 

To quote Freud, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Now maybe at some point a future author will come along and tie this vision into something more 40K-related. But as it stands I believe the scene is simply an Arthurian reference. The mains reason I say this is that it is so vague and the meaning really has to be stretched to breaking point to resemble 40K at all.

Edited August 27 by Karhedron

[AutumnEffect]

I personally think it's a given that Leman Russ will eventually return. It just makes sense to tie in with Space Wolves being one of the Chapters that have their own codex.

Beyond that I don't know, but I do find it funny that all three of the loyalist primarchs will be blonde hunks. I don't know if I'd enjoy Sanguinius coming back to complete the set or anyone else for something other than tall, white and blonde.

[Gamiel]

 

could argue, that they could reference, Spear = Russ, Chalice = Sanguinius, Candelabra = ??? Dorn maybe? 

Spear = Emperor's Spears, Chalice = Soul Drinkers, Candelabra = Night Watch 

[lansalt]

 

I don't know if I'd enjoy Sanguinius coming back to complete the set or anyone else for something other than tall, white and blonde.

Clearly the solution to avoid such unconfortable implications is for Russ to come back as giant wolf the size of a Ork Squiggoth. With an eye patch, of course.

[Tacitus]

 

I understand the viewpoint. 
 

But that would mean leaving one of the big 4 loyalist focus groups with nothing until the end, being one of GW’s most popular factions, I just don’t see them doing that, also it would mean having to expand the codex compliant chapters, meaning more supplement codexes have to be created. 
 

Returning Sanguinius, logistically speaking is easier then bringing back a Primarch for the compliant chapters, Dorn can be done easily by attaching him to black templars but having rules to be included in imperial fist armies.

 

for most people commenting it’s a Lore issue (which has already been cleaned up in lore recently) but for GW it’s a finance and logistic issue which is nothing but great for them

I'd argue it's not Big Four.  It's Big Five.  Four Chaos Gods + Undivided.  Angron/Khorne, Magnus/Tzeentch, Mortarion/Nurgle, Fulgrim/Slaanesh, and Horus/Undivided. For the Loyalists its probably Big Four and a half.  Bobby G, The Lion, Sanguinius, Russ, and Dorn? with two Not-First-Founding-But-GW-Model-Supported successor chapters plus his First Founding?

 

I dunno who the fifth Loyalist is, but from a fluff perspective, you kinda need 5 Loyalists to offset the five Chaos.  Its jarring enough right now with 3 vs 2. - And that's the baseline.  I hope GW isn't going to stop there so that people who chose a First Founding but not one of the main first foundings don't get left out again. 

 

Somethings GW has done well, some things not so well.  Bringing them all back in an unbalanced staggered way:  Poorly.  Bringing them back and changing up the traditional (30K) Rivalries between them?  Good.  If they were bringing them back in HH Part II - Angron and Sanguinius would have returned together.  And meh, we already have HH 1.0 for that.  And the hyperadaption Ultramarines vs the Implacable Invulnerable Death Guard was a nice changeup.  Having him also go against the Cyclopean One as well - meh.  There's no theme there.  Had they brought back Dorn for Magnus then you've got his Anti-Magic Crusaders vs The King of the Warp a fairly obvious and traditional haves vs havenots. 

 

As some people have mentioned a number of folks are particularly invested in their Heroic Choice's Heroic Demise.  A hand wave and finger snap to bring them back isn't going to get it done.  The invasion of Baal campaign from just a bit ago would have been an awesome time to resurrect Sang.  Every Blood Angel in the world shows up, a little (or a huge) piece of Black Rage oozes out of here, or coughs up there, stronger and longer the more a BA has been alive (Dante is practically bed ridden which is fine because Sanguinius is back and they almost always displace the Chapter Master for the rest of the book when they show up so "two birds")- coalesces in one spot and Dark Sanguinius is reborn - darkest hour, hero reborn, first time every BA Lineage Marine is in one place since the battle for Earth- the montage writes itself.  He's still a Loyalist but instead of the Beatific Angel of Mercy To Warm Light For All Mankind, he's a bit darker and the Angel of Vengeance.  Guilliman shows up to drop off the Primaris, Sanguinius latches onto all his sons, and his nearby Brother, little pieces of his soul creating the Black Rage in all his sons scream out at once, nobody knows what's going on, even the Space Marines who know no fear are startled/uncomfortable/disjointed.  He reappears at the top of the Tower of the Lost, home to all those in the Death Company and the largest concentration of the Black Rage.  Guilliman is shocked into a temporary stasis, dumbfounded he misses the team of Super Lictors sneaking up on him.  Sanguinius, barely cognizant of anything around him due to absorbing all the Black Rage, leaps from the tower unfurls his now blackened feathery wings doing a power dive that looks targetted on Guillimen, but ends in a super hero pose, one super lictor dead by his sword, the other 4 dead by psychic copies of his sword all reflected in his now more red-tinged Golden Armor.  This is followed by the trap being sprung early, the two primarchs fighting back to back against a horde of sneaky superbeasts that instantly slay all the mere "mortal" Marines before they can react.  Insert homage to Thor+Captain America Avengers homage/fan service replacing Thor's lightning with Sanguinius' psychics and Captain America's Shield with the Sword of the Emperor.  The Campaign concludes not with a Khornate Deamon incursion, but Fulgrim's return to realspace.  We replace his 30K Rival Guilliman with his 40K Rival Sanguinius while the injured by the psychic might blast wave Guilliman looks on from the shielded alcove Sanguinius places him to rest.  The Eagle and the Serpent begin their ninja samurai duel that would have inspired Kurosawa.  Supernaturally fast passing slashes at each other.  The Black Rage strong enough to echo and rival Angron still driving Sanguinius making him reckless and vulnerable, but Fulgrim unable to capitalize due to the power enabled by the rage.  Finally the mundane power sword used by Sanguinius can't complete with the rage of it's weilder and breaks.  Guilliman tosses the Sword of the Emperor into the ersatz ring, the flames burn (most of) the rage out of Sanguinius as his father has finally arrived in time to save him.  The light from the flames are so strong Fulgrim transforms into an invulnerable statue to cover his retreat.  Nothing can damage the statue leaving a taunting calling card from Fulgrim on Sanguinius' front door.  Sanguinius returns the Emperor's Sword to Guilliman and heads off to his secret Batcave Armory to retreive his new personal arsenal - a giant force axe and a wrist mounted heavy bolter pistol that explains the genetic inspiration for the Sanguinary Guard, and a little Astorath. Fade out to a newly rearmed Sanguinius doing giant Death from Above Deepstrikes clearing out the last of the Nids amongst a steady stream of Wilhelm Screams because reusing Immigrant Song is a little much, even for me. 

 

But they missed it.  The point is, they have to come up with a unique and fluffy reintroduction for each primarch, doubly so for the dead primarchs that bridges from 30K to 40K, including a wargear (and/or drastic appearance swap). This Sanguinius story was pretty easy, and probably not as good as a real writer given some time to work on it.  This was seat of the pants amateur work.  And they have one "gimme" in the bank with that one scene between Guilliman forbidding Cawl to work on Traitor legions, while not believing for a second that Cawl won't do it anyway.   But it can't all be the same.  I'd save the Cawl "gimme" story for Horus or Curze.  Cawl grows a new body, and Horus/Curze's soul possesses it.  Cawl is unwilling to tattle on himself to Guilliman, but his readings and results become increasingly ominous.  The Soul of Horus (or Curze) psychically reaches out to his genechildren, Sephiroth style.  Abbadon spends every favor he has with Perturabo and the Alpha Legion to get a strike force into Cawl's lab, where they make off with the reincarnated Horus.  Maybe we watch this from inside a hibernation pod, with a little voice over from the occupant of the pod giving unheard and unheeded advice to the strike force i.e. "Stop there or lose your head" just before a trap explodes the head of a random Black Legionnaire.  Unheard but this time heeded when he saves Abbadon from being discovered.   Finally a handful of people make it out of the lab with a weak and otherwise useless New Body Old Soul Horus, until they're attacked, about to be beaten, and the old soul powers up the new body.  The person in the hibernation chamber catches their breath, then celebrates exultantly.  Powered Up Horus has his 40K panopoly from his secret training room where Cawl evaluated the project.  What that is I dunno.  Terminator armor, hammer and shield that will become a daemon hammer and daemon shield that he bangs together for a ranged attack psychic wail.  I dunno, some sort of upjumped version of what a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor can do.   And the fade out is the now empty hibernation chamber, flash of lightning reveals a now escaped Nighthaunter moving from shadowed corner to corner making his own escape in the confusion. 

 

The ones like Perturabo and Lorgar are easy enough to explain as the world is now more interesting with the return of their brothers.  Russ and Corvax were gone, and came back - pretty simple just need the re-entry bridge.  Khan finally found an exit from the Webway.  Vulkan is a rough one, and will probably need a RetCon.  Its hard to explain a "voluntary" absence like his.  They're going to need a story reason why he left and couldn't come back until now.  Probably when someone found him who could help him come back.  Some of the others are already "are they or aren't they" dead.  Dorn comes back with mechanical hands, or we find out that those weren't really his hands.  The ninth and final artefact of Vulkan that He'stan is searching for turns out to be a mechanical body made by Vulkan.  It powers up when He'stan finds it, attracting the notice of Ferrus's soul, who decides that mechanical body is home, just like and even better than his organic Body bridging their friendship from 30K to 40K, doesn't necessitate cloning or otherwise reconstituting yet another Primarch... 

[AutumnEffect]

 

Clearly the solution to avoid such unconfortable implications is for Russ to come back as giant wolf the size of a Ork Squiggoth. With an eye patch, of course.

 

I actually really hope that they do make Leman a wulfen. 
It'd be something different from his 30k version and it would give the Imperium their own sort-of-Angron equivalent.

[ZeroWolf]

 

I'd argue it's not Big Four.  It's Big Five.  Four Chaos Gods + Undivided.  Angron/Khorne, Magnus/Tzeentch, Mortarion/Nurgle, Fulgrim/Slaanesh, and Horus/Undivided. For the Loyalists its probably Big Four and a half.  Bobby G, The Lion, Sanguinius, Russ, and Dorn? with two Not-First-Founding-But-GW-Model-Supported successor chapters plus his First Founding?

 

I dunno who the fifth Loyalist is, but from a fluff perspective, you kinda need 5 Loyalists to offset the five Chaos.  Its jarring enough right now with 3 vs 2. - And that's the baseline.  I hope GW isn't going to stop there so that people who chose a First Founding but not one of the main first foundings don't get left out again. 

 

Somethings GW has done well, some things not so well.  Bringing them all back in an unbalanced staggered way:  Poorly.  Bringing them back and changing up the traditional (30K) Rivalries between them?  Good.  If they were bringing them back in HH Part II - Angron and Sanguinius would have returned together.  And meh, we already have HH 1.0 for that.  And the hyperadaption Ultramarines vs the Implacable Invulnerable Death Guard was a nice changeup.  Having him also go against the Cyclopean One as well - meh.  There's no theme there.  Had they brought back Dorn for Magnus then you've got his Anti-Magic Crusaders vs The King of the Warp a fairly obvious and traditional haves vs havenots. 

 

As some people have mentioned a number of folks are particularly invested in their Heroic Choice's Heroic Demise.  A hand wave and finger snap to bring them back isn't going to get it done.  The invasion of Baal campaign from just a bit ago would have been an awesome time to resurrect Sang.  Every Blood Angel in the world shows up, a little (or a huge) piece of Black Rage oozes out of here, or coughs up there, stronger and longer the more a BA has been alive (Dante is practically bed ridden which is fine because Sanguinius is back and they almost always displace the Chapter Master for the rest of the book when they show up so "two birds")- coalesces in one spot and Dark Sanguinius is reborn - darkest hour, hero reborn, first time every BA Lineage Marine is in one place since the battle for Earth- the montage writes itself.  He's still a Loyalist but instead of the Beatific Angel of Mercy To Warm Light For All Mankind, he's a bit darker and the Angel of Vengeance.  Guilliman shows up to drop off the Primaris, Sanguinius latches onto all his sons, and his nearby Brother, little pieces of his soul creating the Black Rage in all his sons scream out at once, nobody knows what's going on, even the Space Marines who know no fear are startled/uncomfortable/disjointed.  He reappears at the top of the Tower of the Lost, home to all those in the Death Company and the largest concentration of the Black Rage.  Guilliman is shocked into a temporary stasis, dumbfounded he misses the team of Super Lictors sneaking up on him.  Sanguinius, barely cognizant of anything around him due to absorbing all the Black Rage, leaps from the tower unfurls his now blackened feathery wings doing a power dive that looks targetted on Guillimen, but ends in a super hero pose, one super lictor dead by his sword, the other 4 dead by psychic copies of his sword all reflected in his now more red-tinged Golden Armor.  This is followed by the trap being sprung early, the two primarchs fighting back to back against a horde of sneaky superbeasts that instantly slay all the mere "mortal" Marines before they can react.  Insert homage to Thor+Captain America Avengers homage/fan service replacing Thor's lightning with Sanguinius' psychics and Captain America's Shield with the Sword of the Emperor.  The Campaign concludes not with a Khornate Deamon incursion, but Fulgrim's return to realspace.  We replace his 30K Rival Guilliman with his 40K Rival Sanguinius while the injured by the psychic might blast wave Guilliman looks on from the shielded alcove Sanguinius places him to rest.  The Eagle and the Serpent begin their ninja samurai duel that would have inspired Kurosawa.  Supernaturally fast passing slashes at each other.  The Black Rage strong enough to echo and rival Angron still driving Sanguinius making him reckless and vulnerable, but Fulgrim unable to capitalize due to the power enabled by the rage.  Finally the mundane power sword used by Sanguinius can't complete with the rage of it's weilder and breaks.  Guilliman tosses the Sword of the Emperor into the ersatz ring, the flames burn (most of) the rage out of Sanguinius as his father has finally arrived in time to save him.  The light from the flames are so strong Fulgrim transforms into an invulnerable statue to cover his retreat.  Nothing can damage the statue leaving a taunting calling card from Fulgrim on Sanguinius' front door.  Sanguinius returns the Emperor's Sword to Guilliman and heads off to his secret Batcave Armory to retreive his new personal arsenal - a giant force axe and a wrist mounted heavy bolter pistol that explains the genetic inspiration for the Sanguinary Guard, and a little Astorath. Fade out to a newly rearmed Sanguinius doing giant Death from Above Deepstrikes clearing out the last of the Nids amongst a steady stream of Wilhelm Screams because reusing Immigrant Song is a little much, even for me. 

 

But they missed it.  The point is, they have to come up with a unique and fluffy reintroduction for each primarch, doubly so for the dead primarchs that bridges from 30K to 40K, including a wargear (and/or drastic appearance swap). This Sanguinius story was pretty easy, and probably not as good as a real writer given some time to work on it.  This was seat of the pants amateur work.  And they have one "gimme" in the bank with that one scene between Guilliman forbidding Cawl to work on Traitor legions, while not believing for a second that Cawl won't do it anyway.   But it can't all be the same.  I'd save the Cawl "gimme" story for Horus or Curze.  Cawl grows a new body, and Horus/Curze's soul possesses it.  Cawl is unwilling to tattle on himself to Guilliman, but his readings and results become increasingly ominous.  The Soul of Horus (or Curze) psychically reaches out to his genechildren, Sephiroth style.  Abbadon spends every favor he has with Perturabo and the Alpha Legion to get a strike force into Cawl's lab, where they make off with the reincarnated Horus.  Maybe we watch this from inside a hibernation pod, with a little voice over from the occupant of the pod giving unheard and unheeded advice to the strike force i.e. "Stop there or lose your head" just before a trap explodes the head of a random Black Legionnaire.  Unheard but this time heeded when he saves Abbadon from being discovered.   Finally a handful of people make it out of the lab with a weak and otherwise useless New Body Old Soul Horus, until they're attacked, about to be beaten, and the old soul powers up the new body.  The person in the hibernation chamber catches their breath, then celebrates exultantly.  Powered Up Horus has his 40K panopoly from his secret training room where Cawl evaluated the project.  What that is I dunno.  Terminator armor, hammer and shield that will become a daemon hammer and daemon shield that he bangs together for a ranged attack psychic wail.  I dunno, some sort of upjumped version of what a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor can do.   And the fade out is the now empty hibernation chamber, flash of lightning reveals a now escaped Nighthaunter moving from shadowed corner to corner making his own escape in the confusion. 

 

The ones like Perturabo and Lorgar are easy enough to explain as the world is now more interesting with the return of their brothers.  Russ and Corvax were gone, and came back - pretty simple just need the re-entry bridge.  Khan finally found an exit from the Webway.  Vulkan is a rough one, and will probably need a RetCon.  Its hard to explain a "voluntary" absence like his.  They're going to need a story reason why he left and couldn't come back until now.  Probably when someone found him who could help him come back.  Some of the others are already "are they or aren't they" dead.  Dorn comes back with mechanical hands, or we find out that those weren't really his hands.  The ninth and final artefact of Vulkan that He'stan is searching for turns out to be a mechanical body made by Vulkan.  It powers up when He'stan finds it, attracting the notice of Ferrus's soul, who decides that mechanical body is home, just like and even better than his organic Body bridging their friendship from 30K to 40K, doesn't necessitate cloning or otherwise reconstituting yet another Primarch... 

To be fair, they don't need Cawl to make clones of the traitor primarchs...there's someone else out there who already has the tech and has done it before...twice if I recall correctly. Also Abaddon has already killed a clone of Horus, don't think he'd like another one to appear or the real one (somehow...Horus returned...play Fortnight to see his message!).

 

On the same tangent, there's a certain necron with a clone fulgrim in his collection still, just waiting for a brave writer to claim him.

[Alternis]

 

I'd argue it's not Big Four.  It's Big Five.  Four Chaos Gods + Undivided.  Angron/Khorne, Magnus/Tzeentch, Mortarion/Nurgle, Fulgrim/Slaanesh, and Horus/Undivided. For the Loyalists its probably Big Four and a half.  Bobby G, The Lion, Sanguinius, Russ, and Dorn? with two Not-First-Founding-But-GW-Model-Supported successor chapters plus his First Founding?

 

I dunno who the fifth Loyalist is, but from a fluff perspective, you kinda need 5 Loyalists to offset the five Chaos.  Its jarring enough right now with 3 vs 2. - And that's the baseline.  I hope GW isn't going to stop there so that people who chose a First Founding but not one of the main first foundings don't get left out again. 

 

Somethings GW has done well, some things not so well.  Bringing them all back in an unbalanced staggered way:  Poorly.  Bringing them back and changing up the traditional (30K) Rivalries between them?  Good.  If they were bringing them back in HH Part II - Angron and Sanguinius would have returned together.  And meh, we already have HH 1.0 for that.  And the hyperadaption Ultramarines vs the Implacable Invulnerable Death Guard was a nice changeup.  Having him also go against the Cyclopean One as well - meh.  There's no theme there.  Had they brought back Dorn for Magnus then you've got his Anti-Magic Crusaders vs The King of the Warp a fairly obvious and traditional haves vs havenots. 

 

As some people have mentioned a number of folks are particularly invested in their Heroic Choice's Heroic Demise.  A hand wave and finger snap to bring them back isn't going to get it done.  The invasion of Baal campaign from just a bit ago would have been an awesome time to resurrect Sang.  Every Blood Angel in the world shows up, a little (or a huge) piece of Black Rage oozes out of here, or coughs up there, stronger and longer the more a BA has been alive (Dante is practically bed ridden which is fine because Sanguinius is back and they almost always displace the Chapter Master for the rest of the book when they show up so "two birds")- coalesces in one spot and Dark Sanguinius is reborn - darkest hour, hero reborn, first time every BA Lineage Marine is in one place since the battle for Earth- the montage writes itself.  He's still a Loyalist but instead of the Beatific Angel of Mercy To Warm Light For All Mankind, he's a bit darker and the Angel of Vengeance.  Guilliman shows up to drop off the Primaris, Sanguinius latches onto all his sons, and his nearby Brother, little pieces of his soul creating the Black Rage in all his sons scream out at once, nobody knows what's going on, even the Space Marines who know no fear are startled/uncomfortable/disjointed.  He reappears at the top of the Tower of the Lost, home to all those in the Death Company and the largest concentration of the Black Rage.  Guilliman is shocked into a temporary stasis, dumbfounded he misses the team of Super Lictors sneaking up on him.  Sanguinius, barely cognizant of anything around him due to absorbing all the Black Rage, leaps from the tower unfurls his now blackened feathery wings doing a power dive that looks targetted on Guillimen, but ends in a super hero pose, one super lictor dead by his sword, the other 4 dead by psychic copies of his sword all reflected in his now more red-tinged Golden Armor.  This is followed by the trap being sprung early, the two primarchs fighting back to back against a horde of sneaky superbeasts that instantly slay all the mere "mortal" Marines before they can react.  Insert homage to Thor+Captain America Avengers homage/fan service replacing Thor's lightning with Sanguinius' psychics and Captain America's Shield with the Sword of the Emperor.  The Campaign concludes not with a Khornate Deamon incursion, but Fulgrim's return to realspace.  We replace his 30K Rival Guilliman with his 40K Rival Sanguinius while the injured by the psychic might blast wave Guilliman looks on from the shielded alcove Sanguinius places him to rest.  The Eagle and the Serpent begin their ninja samurai duel that would have inspired Kurosawa.  Supernaturally fast passing slashes at each other.  The Black Rage strong enough to echo and rival Angron still driving Sanguinius making him reckless and vulnerable, but Fulgrim unable to capitalize due to the power enabled by the rage.  Finally the mundane power sword used by Sanguinius can't complete with the rage of it's weilder and breaks.  Guilliman tosses the Sword of the Emperor into the ersatz ring, the flames burn (most of) the rage out of Sanguinius as his father has finally arrived in time to save him.  The light from the flames are so strong Fulgrim transforms into an invulnerable statue to cover his retreat.  Nothing can damage the statue leaving a taunting calling card from Fulgrim on Sanguinius' front door.  Sanguinius returns the Emperor's Sword to Guilliman and heads off to his secret Batcave Armory to retreive his new personal arsenal - a giant force axe and a wrist mounted heavy bolter pistol that explains the genetic inspiration for the Sanguinary Guard, and a little Astorath. Fade out to a newly rearmed Sanguinius doing giant Death from Above Deepstrikes clearing out the last of the Nids amongst a steady stream of Wilhelm Screams because reusing Immigrant Song is a little much, even for me. 

 

But they missed it.  The point is, they have to come up with a unique and fluffy reintroduction for each primarch, doubly so for the dead primarchs that bridges from 30K to 40K, including a wargear (and/or drastic appearance swap). This Sanguinius story was pretty easy, and probably not as good as a real writer given some time to work on it.  This was seat of the pants amateur work.  And they have one "gimme" in the bank with that one scene between Guilliman forbidding Cawl to work on Traitor legions, while not believing for a second that Cawl won't do it anyway.   But it can't all be the same.  I'd save the Cawl "gimme" story for Horus or Curze.  Cawl grows a new body, and Horus/Curze's soul possesses it.  Cawl is unwilling to tattle on himself to Guilliman, but his readings and results become increasingly ominous.  The Soul of Horus (or Curze) psychically reaches out to his genechildren, Sephiroth style.  Abbadon spends every favor he has with Perturabo and the Alpha Legion to get a strike force into Cawl's lab, where they make off with the reincarnated Horus.  Maybe we watch this from inside a hibernation pod, with a little voice over from the occupant of the pod giving unheard and unheeded advice to the strike force i.e. "Stop there or lose your head" just before a trap explodes the head of a random Black Legionnaire.  Unheard but this time heeded when he saves Abbadon from being discovered.   Finally a handful of people make it out of the lab with a weak and otherwise useless New Body Old Soul Horus, until they're attacked, about to be beaten, and the old soul powers up the new body.  The person in the hibernation chamber catches their breath, then celebrates exultantly.  Powered Up Horus has his 40K panopoly from his secret training room where Cawl evaluated the project.  What that is I dunno.  Terminator armor, hammer and shield that will become a daemon hammer and daemon shield that he bangs together for a ranged attack psychic wail.  I dunno, some sort of upjumped version of what a Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor can do.   And the fade out is the now empty hibernation chamber, flash of lightning reveals a now escaped Nighthaunter moving from shadowed corner to corner making his own escape in the confusion. 

 

The ones like Perturabo and Lorgar are easy enough to explain as the world is now more interesting with the return of their brothers.  Russ and Corvax were gone, and came back - pretty simple just need the re-entry bridge.  Khan finally found an exit from the Webway.  Vulkan is a rough one, and will probably need a RetCon.  Its hard to explain a "voluntary" absence like his.  They're going to need a story reason why he left and couldn't come back until now.  Probably when someone found him who could help him come back.  Some of the others are already "are they or aren't they" dead.  Dorn comes back with mechanical hands, or we find out that those weren't really his hands.  The ninth and final artefact of Vulkan that He'stan is searching for turns out to be a mechanical body made by Vulkan.  It powers up when He'stan finds it, attracting the notice of Ferrus's soul, who decides that mechanical body is home, just like and even better than his organic Body bridging their friendship from 30K to 40K, doesn't necessitate cloning or otherwise reconstituting yet another Primarch... 

there’s a lot to take in and unpack here. 
 

But I want to draw your attention to the fact that Sanguinius clones (albeit a slightly lesser version of him) already exists a whole army’s worth if you follow the Eisenhorn series, so it’s been done with Sanguinius to a degree and Fulgrim. 
 

But that’s besides the point since Sanguinius body has been repaired and is currently chilling in the cooler, the golden sarcophagus on Baal, yes the devastation of Baal could have been a good time for it, but I don’t think we were ready to get Sanguinius back just yet. 
 

I’ll respond to the rest of this after I finish eating lol

[Tacitus]

 

there’s a lot to take in and unpack here. 
 

But I want to draw your attention to the fact that Sanguinius clones (albeit a slightly lesser version of him) already exists a whole army’s worth if you follow the Eisenhorn series, so it’s been done with Sanguinius to a degree and Fulgrim. 
 

But that’s besides the point since Sanguinius body has been repaired and is currently chilling in the cooler, the golden sarcophagus on Baal, yes the devastation of Baal could have been a good time for it, but I don’t think we were ready to get Sanguinius back just yet. 
 

I’ll respond to the rest of this after I finish eating lol

Well that was a large part of my point.  The Clone the Superhero thing is pretty tired in 40K.  They need to avoid that hook like the plague.   I mean, obviously, they need to bring everybody back for a reunion, so they have to "clone" them without looking like they're literally cloning them - doing each one as uniquely as possible preferably in a way that runs parallel to their (or their Legion's) theme.  Ferrus' soul powering a super computer that runs a Super Dread for the Bionics Brigade is a great example.  First - more man than machine for the Legion theme, then you can tie in Vulkan's friendship with Ferrus, and you can use a new Primaris Dread (and the Tactical Warsuit) as inspiration for the new Ferrus model implying Vulkan and/or Ferrus was involved in that design plus (warsuit) avoiding the weapon built into the arm issue of just flat using a Dread kit.  Make it fully anthropomorphized: two arms, two hands, two fists, holding two wargear.  I'd even go so far as to make the Torso not Dread shaped but Ferrus shaped including a helmet for his head - just squared and made up of plates, panels, and sections while retaining the dread arms and fists.

[Orange Knight]

The Devastation of Baal could have been the opportunity but more horrors and desperate battles awaits the Blood Angels in the future.

 

What's notable is that as of this very moment, there are more indicators for a Sanguinius return than there were for either Guilliman or the Lion prior to theirs.

 

Sanguinius is an active player in M42 and he has a direct impact on events and his chapter, and his body exists in a known and confirmed location.

 

I also believe that whether we like this fact or not, GW is unlikely to focus on the less popular codex chapters. The Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines and Space Wolves are the prime candidates for epic hero releases. There is one exception to this, and that's the Black Templars. I would not be shocked if a returned Rogal Dorn, changed in some way, is the one leading them in the future instead of the Imperial Fists... as much as that would personally Irk me.

Edited August 27 by Orange Knight

[ZeroWolf]

 

 

I actually really hope that they do make Leman a wulfen. 
It'd be something different from his 30k version and it would give the Imperium their own sort-of-Angron equivalent.

A lot of folks rather Odin Russ than that (especially given how Lion'el was aged up) so i don't think GW will be able to satisfy everyone...unless they give him a transformation ability and sell him as two models in one set, which has a very low probability of happening.

[lansalt]

 

Sanguinius clones

There's no such thing in the Bequin series. In fact, that one "clone" that gets to speak seems to have memories of a regular marine.

 

Sanguinius body has been repaired and is currently chilling in the cooler, the golden sarcophagus on Baal

That's from the Rafen book, ie: it never happened.

 

And regarding Sanguinius visions, that's actually an argument for him not returning, given their context.

Edited August 27 by lansalt

[Orange Knight]

 

 

I actually really hope that they do make Leman a wulfen. 
It'd be something different from his 30k version and it would give the Imperium their own sort-of-Angron equivalent.

 

This is possible, and would actually be more interesting.

 

We have the regal statesman that is Guilliman, and we have the aged and wiser version of Lion El Johnson. I don't think it's particularly exciting for Leman Russ to replicate what has already been done.

 

It would be far more interesting, from a narrative perspective, if one of the returning sons has mutated in some way and is utilised by the Imperium as a secret weapon of shock and terror.

Edited August 27 by Orange Knight

[AutumnEffect]

 

A lot of folks rather Odin Russ than that (especially given how Lion'el was aged up) so i don't think GW will be able to satisfy everyone...unless they give him a transformation ability and sell him as two models in one set, which has a very low probability of happening.

 

I haven't heard of an Odin Russ before. I find it kind of odd since the Emperor is always referred to as 'Allfather' and Russ has much, much stronger Thor vibes than Odin. I think that'd be a very strange direction they'd take him in. It feels like it would just be the change for the Lion mk 2.

There would be an irony to Russ losing an eye considering his long running rivalry with Magnus.

Edited August 27 by AutumnEffect

[Gamiel]

 

A lot of folks rather Odin Russ

But we already got Odin in the form of Magnus.

[Tacitus]

 

 

I actually really hope that they do make Leman a wulfen. 
It'd be something different from his 30k version and it would give the Imperium their own sort-of-Angron equivalent.

They need to change Russ, but not make him Wulfen.  He shouldn't be interchangeable with his 30K Model.   Putting him on a bike like a Swiftclaw has some appeal - though they're already packing the Biker Brother segment pretty heavy.  And Russ is sort of the anti-Angron.  Angron is anger rulling the man, Russ is the man ruling his anger.  Which does bring up another problem for bringing Russ back.  I mean he's the obivous choice out of who is available.  He's Big Five, and he's a good choice for tie breaker between Lion and Guilliman who I think they've intentionally avoided path-crossing with until they get a third Loyalist.  The problem with Russ is that his rivalry options are pretty limited now.  Fulgrim works.  Sort of.  Finese vs brute strength, hot passion vs Cold calculations. But I like Fulgrim vs Sanguinius better.  His old rivalry is still there as a potential - and I SUPPOSE not EVERYONE needs to change it up to someone new so he and forgotten Magnus can go head to head.  I like Russ vs Lorgar.  I like Russ vs Morty, but I like Guilliman vs Morty even better. 

[Gamiel]

One of Space Wolves visual inspirations are the Slains comic. Maybe a returned Russ could be more older Slainé like?

[Tacitus]

 

The Devastation of Baal could have been the opportunity but more horrors and desperate battles awaits the Blood Angels in the future.

 

What's notable is that as of this very moment, there are more indicators for a Sanguinius return than there were for either Guilliman or the Lion prior to theirs.

 

Sanguinius is an active player in M42 and he has a direct impact on events and his chapter, and his body exists in a known and confirmed location.

 

I also believe that whether we like this fact or not, GW is unlikely to focus on the less popular codex chapters. The Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines and Space Wolves are the prime candidates for epic hero releases. There is one exception to this, and that's the Black Templars. I would not be shocked if a returned Rogal Dorn, changed in some way, is the one leading them in the future instead of the Imperial Fists... as much as that would personally Irk me.

I assume GW isn't very smart about this, but I also assume they aren't THAT dumb.  They'll write his faction keyword in such a way that he can lead any of his chapters, successor or otherwise.  I.e. his Faction Keyword is VII LEGION and his rules say VII LEGION changes to any Chapter Name that succeeded from the VII LEGION for the duration of the battle.  i.e. if you're Imp Fists VII LEGION Changes to IMP FISTS, if you're Crimson Fists VII LEGION changes to Crimson Fists, if you're... yadda yadda. And his special rules will replace <CHAPTER> with <VII LEGION> to get the same treatment. The same way they've used <CHAPTER> as a generic but fixed-for-the-battle keyword in the past.  Replace all instances of VII Legion with the CHAPTER - which has to be a descendent of, and match one from this list Yadda Yadda -  you're playing. 

[Tacitus]

 

 

This is possible, and would actually be more interesting.

 

We have the regal statesman that is Guilliman, and we have the aged and wiser version of Lion El Johnson. I don't think it's particularly exciting for Leman Russ to replicate what has already been done.

 

It would be far more interesting, from a narrative perspective, if one of the returning sons has mutated in some way and is utilised by the Imperium as a secret weapon of shock and terror.

Thats more likely to be Corvus Corax who allegedly has mutated into some sort of Shadow Beast even above and beyond his abilities in 30K.   This works better as he's both a "Tier 2" (Not Big Five) Primarch, and later on.  Guilliman and Johnson have little love for each other beyond both likely being super lonely.  And any time spent together is likely to revive the reasons they don't like each other, necessitating at least a third primarch to mediate.  Meaning also being seen in public.   There were two reasons Johnson and Guilliman chose Sanguinius for Imperium Secondus.  One: they didn't want it for themselves for optics reasons plus Sanguinius was the best of them.  Two:  They cared less about who it was as much as who it wasn't.  I.e. Anybody but you. 

[Alternis]

 

Well that was a large part of my point.  The Clone the Superhero thing is pretty tired in 40K.  They need to avoid that hook like the plague.   I mean, obviously, they need to bring everybody back for a reunion, so they have to "clone" them without looking like they're literally cloning them - doing each one as uniquely as possible preferably in a way that runs parallel to their (or their Legion's) theme.  Ferrus' soul powering a super computer that runs a Super Dread for the Bionics Brigade is a great example.  First - more man than machine for the Legion theme, then you can tie in Vulkan's friendship with Ferrus, and you can use a new Primaris Dread (and the Tactical Warsuit) as inspiration for the new Ferrus model implying Vulkan and/or Ferrus was involved in that design plus (warsuit) avoiding the weapon built into the arm issue of just flat using a Dread kit.  Make it fully anthropomorphized: two arms, two hands, two fists, holding two wargear.  I'd even go so far as to make the Torso not Dread shaped but Ferrus shaped including a helmet for his head - just squared and made up of plates, panels, and sections while retaining the dread arms and fists.

Ok getting back to this.

 

so we know Dorn recovered ferrus’s head, and I do think if Ferrus comes back as a Primarch tier Dreadnought it would be depressing while also an oxymoron of the highest degree as he was against what his sons were doing becoming more machine then organic, and if he became the living example of everything he stood against becoming a dreadnought would make for some good writing on how he would mentally deal with that inner conflict and clash of his ideals, his sons would probably love it though, the fans? Divided maybe negative leaning. 
 

but that being said I think it would mirror what’s going on with perturabo because he’s becoming some sort of Primarch Daemon Machine in a sense if I read it correctly, a living weapon, so we could eventually see a ‘Primarch Dreadnought’ style thing for both loyalist and traitors. 
 

As for Leman Russ, there is a public speculation/head cannon narrative that he’s gonna come back all ‘Odin’ style, but I just don’t see that now, I think GW is moving away from the Norse feel of Space wolves and incorporating that into Votann, I think we’re about to start seeing a totally different aesthetic with Space Wolves and it will reflect on Leman Russ coming back, I’m thinking more leaning into the Werewolf Theme, and leaning away from Norse, I for one would like to see a Van Helsing style Werewolf transformed Russ. 
and less of a Eyepatch, harnessing thunder Odin style Russ.

 

Moving on to Vulkan there’s a lot of weird stuff going on with Vulkan, first his disappearance is convenient since he has a hammer that allows him to teleport at his convenience, then there’s the fact he’s a perpetual so he just cannot die unless his soul is eradicated, and finally, he’s able to harness the orks power to turn imagination into reality.

but it’s unclear to say if Vulkan has the same powers as an ork horde collectively turned up to 11, or whether he’s just able to borrow powers from outside sources, there’s just not enough lore to confirm it, but GW has left things with him ambiguous. 

[Orange Knight]

I really don't think Games Workshop will be releasing Primarch models for chapters that they hardly support, and are ultimately niche. Rogal Dorn might be the only exception as I mentioned above.

I expect they'll probably release 4 on each side, maybe a 5th loyalist as Abaddon himself is of equal stature to the loyalist Primarchs on the tabletop.

 

Corvus isn't popular enough, unfortunately. 

[Tacitus]

 

I really don't think Games Workshop will be releasing Primarch models for chapters that they hardly support, and are ultimately niche. Rogal Dorn might be the only exception as I mentioned above.

I expect they'll probably release 4 on each side, maybe a 5th loyalist as Abaddon himself is of equal stature to the loyalist Primarchs on the tabletop.

 

Corvus isn't popular enough, unfortunately. 

I think the plan is to release them all.  I think the plan is some sort of large centerpiece model for any/every (sub)faction they can make it make sense (Avatar, Silent King, KV128, and so on) - I'm just not particularly confident that happens. They tend to lose interest in this type of major project halfway through. 

[Alternis]

 

Thats more likely to be Corvus Corax who allegedly has mutated into some sort of Shadow Beast even above and beyond his abilities in 30K.   This works better as he's both a "Tier 2" (Not Big Five) Primarch, and later on.  Guilliman and Johnson have little love for each other beyond both likely being super lonely.  And any time spent together is likely to revive the reasons they don't like each other, necessitating at least a third primarch to mediate.  Meaning also being seen in public.   There were two reasons Johnson and Guilliman chose Sanguinius for Imperium Secondus.  One: they didn't want it for themselves for optics reasons plus Sanguinius was the best of them.  Two:  They cared less about who it was as much as who it wasn't.  I.e. Anybody but you. 

In all of the 42nd millenium Primarch vs Primarch facing offs we’ve had recently. 
 

Guilliman vs Magnus. 
Guilliman vs Mortarion.

Lion vs Angron.

Corax vs Lorgar, had to be one of best ones I’ve read, right next to Lion’s. 
 

made me laugh how Lorgar was all like “see how superior I am, all 4 chaos gods give me their favour” 

and Corax was just like ‘so what?’ And proceeded to beat the ever living daylight out of him looooool, sent him packing with his tail between his legs.

 

 

But yes Corax is definitely something ‘More’ now

[Orange Knight]

@Tacitus

 

I don't believe so. They've actually made steps to consolidate some of the sub factions. Marines included. Chapters are now reduced to detachments and only the big 5 are getting real support.

 

In the case of other factions like the Eldar, the rules don't even impact unit selection and Eldrad has no craftwold keyword, as an example.

Edited August 27 by Orange Knight