Returning Primarchs - Alive, Dead & Otherwise

[Alternis]

 

There's no such thing in the Bequin series. In fact, that one "clone" that gets to speak seems to have memories of a regular marine.

That's from the Rafen book, ie: it never happened.

 

And regarding Sanguinius visions, that's actually an argument for him not returning, given their context.

They all have natural white wings, and have the visage of Sanguinius, unless it’s experimentation with geneseed to force evolution Sanguinius genetic traits into Astartes, which is the only other thing it could be, if not then it can only be inferior clones, still unsure how the king in yellow managed to get his hands on Sanguinius genetics like that though. 
 

also Sanguinius visions, as now confirmed in the seige are mutable, as in it’s not a fixed point in time that it’s gaurenteed to happen.

like how Dante foresaw in his visions the emperors sword by his body and in later visions he noted how the sword disappeared, then he noticed it was gone from his visions because Guilliman had taken it, meaning the future had changed. 
 

also I’m pretty sure according to his visions the Tyranids were meant to get some super power up because they absorbed the black rage after devastation of Baal, but we haven’t seen that either yet, and the emperor explained it best how future sight branches off into many different directions, as clear as Sanguinius visions were, he was still inexperienced in learning how to read the future as he didn’t take personal choice affects branch futures, instead choosing to focus on 1 future and decided fate could not kill him till that appointed time (which he used to great affect) 

 

As for the whole Rafen stuff, it is the ONLY lore we have on the current location of Sanguinius body at present, after the conclusion of The end and the Death there has been no further written lore about it other then it was recovered from the VS, and the Blood Angels took his body away, and that was it. 
 

And looking at how the ultramarines treated Guilliman’s body in his death, it stands to reason Sanguinius body is on Baal, there’s no other explanation for it.

[Gamiel]

 

and only the big 5 are getting real support.

You make it sound like it was different before. At least now the DA n BA transfer sheets come with symbols for some Successors

[Alternis]

 

I really don't think Games Workshop will be releasing Primarch models for chapters that they hardly support, and are ultimately niche. Rogal Dorn might be the only exception as I mentioned above.

I expect they'll probably release 4 on each side, maybe a 5th loyalist as Abaddon himself is of equal stature to the loyalist Primarchs on the tabletop.

 

Corvus isn't popular enough, unfortunately. 

Loyalist Vanilla - Guilliman 

Big 4/Dauntless Few - Lion, Russ, Dorn, Sanguinius 

Most likely alternative to return - Corax or Jaghatai

 

Traitor Vanilla - Abaddon 

Big 4 - Magnus, Mortarion, Angron, Fulgrim

Heavily Suspected to return - Perturabo (Dependant on Vashtorr Narrative) 

 

let’s all not forget GW do have a Loyalist Fulgrim in their back pocket as a wild card they could play at any time.

[Orange Knight]

 

You make it sound like it was different before. At least now the DA n BA transfer sheets come with symbols for some Successors

 

There was a time when it was going the other way, largely thanks to Forgeworld before GW completely gutted their range and output.

 

We had models and rules for various chapters that didn't exist in the main codex, and other chapters had additional models and rules - Salamanders being one good example. There were additional characters and Dreadnought models and rules.

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

I really don't think Games Workshop will be releasing Primarch models for chapters that they hardly support, and are ultimately niche. Rogal Dorn might be the only exception as I mentioned above.

I expect they'll probably release 4 on each side, maybe a 5th loyalist as Abaddon himself is of equal stature to the loyalist Primarchs on the tabletop.

 

Corvus isn't popular enough, unfortunately. 

 

From the other side of things, your point would make sense if Space Marines were the only faction in the game. You're rating the popularity of Primarchs solely based on subfactions in Space Marines as a whole compared to the entire setting. The entire setting is warped around the primarchs, it's basically the only thing half of space marine fans talk about (hyperbole) and what hobbyists and GW themselves compare other faction leaders to. The Silent King is Primarch-tier, the Avatar of Khaine was bested by Fulgrim yaddayadda. Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Word Bearers etc each probably have more collectors and popularity than a some of the Xenos armies combined

 

They'll make the models first and then create the rules based on what they're armed with, their lore etc. What the rules currently are doesn't matter and will be made to fit whatever models they produce. It's good to see folk hyped for potential Primarch models, whether they're my jam or not, they're always spectacular models

[AutumnEffect]

I actually think that Vulkan has the highest chance of making a return outside of chapters that have their own book. He helped out during the War of the Beast and he left his little trinkets around for the Salamanders to track him down.
We know he's alive and out there somewhere.

 

As some have said though I would be surprised if Dorn came back after having a 'Come to the Emperor' moment leading the Black Templars. It would definitely be something new and different for him.

[Tacitus]

 

@Tacitus

 

I don't believe so. They've actually made steps to consolidate some of the sub factions. Marines included. Chapters are now reduced to detachments and only the big 5 are getting real support.

 

In the case of other factions like the Eldar, the rules don't even impact unit selection and Eldrad has no craftwold keyword, as an example.

Neither does the Avatar.  The Supreme Commander experiment is a dovetail of the Primarch Project.  And an example of how GW often doesn't follow through.  Supreme Commanders have gone by the wayside without FOC lists.  One could say the same thing about non-Big Four Chapters - they started out by giving everyone more named characters, and then stopped.  Most of them have two, RG and IH have the one.  They got official support, but the project died before it finished. 

[ZeroWolf]

I don't expect GW to go near the werewolf aspect with the SW any further after what happened with the HH helmet upgrade pack. There seems to be a lot of people who want Space Wolves to be less 'furry' for lack of a better word.

 

Interesting point about the Votann given one of the suggested reasons the Squats were dumped in the first place (something to do with wanting SW to be more norse themed).

 

It also would be a GW move (since they'll want that primarch money) to make supplements for each main successor, that doesn't already have a book, if it meant they had an excuse to make the primarch.

 

I'll still stand by my assertion that Sanguinius will not hit the board before 13th edition at the earliest and even then I'd expect later (assuming current edition churn stays the same, which I hope it doesn't).

[Alternis]

 

I actually think that Vulkan has the highest chance of making a return outside of chapters that have their own book. He helped out during the War of the Beast and he left his little trinkets around for the Salamanders to track him down.
We know he's alive and out there somewhere.

 

As some have said though I would be surprised if Dorn came back after having a 'Come to the Emperor' moment leading the Black Templars. It would definitely be something new and different for him.

It’s a tough one to say. 
 

Corax we actually have the MOST lore on where he is, what he’s doing, and what his new warp awakened powers are, so Corax is the biggest contender. 
 

vulkan we just don’t know where he is, what he’s doing and what’s going on with his powers atm, too much ambiguity. 
same with Jaghatai.

Ferrus is self explanatory. 
 

Dorn however, has been in the throes of self defeat, beating himself up and having suffered defeat after defeat, the seige and iron cage being the notable incidents, so he left to go on a penance crusade (much mirroring the black Templars) but also due to the end and the death, I do believe he’s been touched by Khorne slightly, so there’s that he’s dealing with also. 
I see him coming back purging the gold and donning the black and white, full of rage and anger, ready to purge the heretic, the Xenos, the mutant. 
 

Also don’t the black Templars out number the imperial fists? Pretty sure they are massive, almost half legion size, but Black Templars are recognised as a Divergent chapter, so Dorn coming back would be attached to them.

[Tacitus]

 

Loyalist Vanilla - Guilliman 

Big 4/Dauntless Few - Lion, Russ, Dorn, Sanguinius 

Most likely alternative to return - Corax or Jaghatai

 

Traitor Vanilla - Abaddon 

Big 4 - Magnus, Mortarion, Angron, Fulgrim

Heavily Suspected to return - Perturabo (Dependant on Vashtorr Narrative) 

 

let’s all not forget GW do have a Loyalist Fulgrim in their back pocket as a wild card they could play at any time.

I think Perturabo and Lorgar are pretty much equally likely to return. 

[Alternis]

 

I don't expect GW to go near the werewolf aspect with the SW any further after what happened with the HH helmet upgrade pack. There seems to be a lot of people who want Space Wolves to be less 'furry' for lack of a better word.

 

Interesting point about the Votann given one of the suggested reasons the Squats were dumped in the first place (something to do with wanting SW to be more norse themed).

 

It also would be a GW move (since they'll want that primarch money) to make supplements for each main successor, that doesn't already have a book, if it meant they had an excuse to make the primarch.

 

I'll still stand by my assertion that Sanguinius will not hit the board before 13th edition at the earliest and even then I'd expect later (assuming current edition churn stays the same, which I hope it doesn't).

Going with current trends. 
 

im predicting Dorn + Perturabo hitting the table in 11th edition

 

and Sanguinius in 12th

 

@ZeroWolf sorry I had to do this post in 2 stages as I wanted to be very careful how I word this. 
 

Im not personally a fan or supporter of all things furry myself, so I understand and appreciate the apprehension, that being said, if they do the Wulfen RIGHT, it could be a big hit, see how Infinity did their Sci-Fi style werewolves, I for one might actually pick up Space Wolves if they did Wulfen like this, and not that hot mess they look like right now.

Edited August 27 by Alternis

[Tacitus]

 

I don't expect GW to go near the werewolf aspect with the SW any further after what happened with the HH helmet upgrade pack. There seems to be a lot of people who want Space Wolves to be less 'furry' for lack of a better word.

 

Interesting point about the Votann given one of the suggested reasons the Squats were dumped in the first place (something to do with wanting SW to be more norse themed).

 

It also would be a GW move (since they'll want that primarch money) to make supplements for each main successor, that doesn't already have a book, if it meant they had an excuse to make the primarch.

 

I'll still stand by my assertion that Sanguinius will not hit the board before 13th edition at the earliest and even then I'd expect later (assuming current edition churn stays the same, which I hope it doesn't).

I'd expect Sanguinius by the end of 12th. Russ - if he's next and before Sanguinius - should show up somewhere between now and Just before 11th.  They seem to release one ( or one per side) per Summer Campaign and Sanguinius is the last of the bonafide big ones. If they release Dorn (or Corax etc) its because they're punting on the story hook to bring back Sanguinius.

[Gamiel]

 

That's from the Rafen book, ie: it never happened.

Do you know the events of the Rafen books were referred to in Fabius Bile: Manflayer?

[Orange Knight]

I honestly don't think GW will branch out beyond the big 4 or 5 on each side. Time is an issue and the release cycle resets after enough has passed.

 

The 40k Primarch releases have been slow and measured. It's taken 7 years for two loyalists to get released. By the time we have 4, it will be time to start releasing updated models for the existing popular Primarchs and to even start updating the generic kits. Intercessors will be a 10+ year old kit before we even have 4 loyalists running around. The cycle will start fresh.

 

The truth is, and people need to understand this by virtue of simple observation, is that whilst Marines are by far the most popular faction it doesn't mean that GW sees a significant return on all of the sub factions within the range. During 8th and 9th they made steps to diversify the Astartes range and even produced individual supplement books for the various codex Chapters. I don't believe that these were particularly successful financially, and I don't believe that all of these additional supplements are good for the health of the game. Consolidation is urgently needed within this faction.

 

GWs stance on the matter is self evident. They have completely removed the vast majority of supplement books, and they have doubled down on support for the already established and successful Chapters.

There are no new models for the Iron Hands, or the Raven Guard. Some chapters no longer have any models whatsoever - Seth is entirely gone and Pedro Kantor is not for sale.

 

What do I expect will happen? I think we'll get 4 or 5 grand heroes on the loyalist and traitor sides, and then GW will start refreshing the existing range and models again. They aren't going to branch out focus across even more Chapters, and they will not support them any more than they already do. We'll get an updated Guilliman model long before GW even think about making a 40k Corax.

Edited August 27 by Orange Knight

[Karhedron]

 

Also don’t the black Templars out number the imperial fists? Pretty sure they are massive, almost half legion size, but Black Templars are recognised as a Divergent chapter, so Dorn coming back would be attached to them.

 

Yes, Black Templars are big, possibly even bigger than the Space Wolves. They get around this since they are fleet-based and spread out on multiple crusades. They rarely gather in large enough numbers to arouse suspicion although the Inquisition suspects they number around 6000. 

[lansalt]

 

Do you know the events of the Rafen books were referred to in Fabius Bile: Manflayer?

I don't recall it. You mean the reference to the BA putting a price on Fabius head? Because that or any other minor call back doesn't retroactively make the Rafen books canon again.

 

Additionally, The Devastation of Baal doesn't mention Sanguinius' tomb at all. Which could be explained either way, but it's strange that Dante did no try to send it away like he does with the BA geneseed.

[Orange Knight]

No mention does not mean there is a retcon.

 

GW will randomly pick up ideas that have seemingly been forgotten after decades of no mention, as they recently did with the Star Child plot.

 

The book that describes the Sarcophagus of Sanguinius isn't even that old.

Edited August 27 by Orange Knight

[Alternis]

 

I don't recall it. You mean the reference to the BA putting a price on Fabius head? Because that or any other minor call back doesn't retroactively make the Rafen books canon again.

 

Additionally, The Devastation of Baal doesn't mention Sanguinius' tomb at all. Which could be explained either way, but it's strange that Dante did no try to send it away like he does with the BA geneseed.

I mean, when Chaos assaulted Ultramar to get to Guilliman’s body, Marneus didn’t order Guilliman’s body to be sent away either. 
 

maybe it’s just a thing, save the geneseed, protect the Primarchs resting place, sort out like how it’s a huge taboo to be exhuming bodies at rest. 

[lansalt]

 

The book that describes the Sarcophagus of Sanguinius isn't even that old.

Red Fury is from 2008...

[Orange Knight]

Yeah, that's no time at all in 40k lore. Horus Rising had already been out for a few years at that point.

[ZeroWolf]

 

Yeah, that's no time at all in 40k lore. Horus Rising had already been out for a few years at that point.

I was there...when that book came out... in 2005...

 

Its a shame that really we'll only see if any of our predictions bear fruit in two years at the earliest (predicted Russ) and many years for the rest...anyone got a time machine?

[SvenIronhand]

TBH I would rather not have the Rafen books be canon. They were sloppy at best, and there's a reason he's forgotten.

[lansalt]

Sure, but the Rafen books have been ignored and retconned on purpose unlike Horus Rising. They exist in a grey area where maybe some parts are still true but the big events clearly not.

 

A better example would be the fate of the SW 13th company, which was rescued by Stormcaller and returned with all their HH stuff and Bulveye himself in Ashes of Prospero (2018), but GW has been ignoring it since then.

[Orange Knight]

Like I said, things may sometimes be contradicted, other things might not be mentioned for years or seemingly forgotten. 

 

Then suddenly GW will pick up a plot line that we all thought was abandoned decades ago.

 

There are contradictions to the current 40k lore in some of the Eisenhorn books, and yet we are getting sequels to those with more on the way. Pandemonium will drop at some point.

 

I have absolutely no reason to believe that the Sarcophagus of Sanguinius is anything but canon lore. It sounds really cool on top of this, and as I mentioned earlier - Sanguinius is once again an active player in the most current 40k timeline. Either way, the moment he started interacting with characters in the current timeline in multiple books the gates were open for a possible return. Guy Haley is a trusted custodian of the "meta narrative" on top of everything.

[Karhedron]

GW love to say that everything is canon but not everything is true. Broadly speaking, stuff remains canon until something comes along to directly contradict it. The little nod to the Star Child in TEATD shows that GW is quite happy to pick up ideas a long way down the road.