Returning Primarchs - Alive, Dead & Otherwise

[ZeroWolf]

 

I’ve never seen/ heard any of that lore for the LoD before where is it from?

The nurgles rot part is complete new to me as well. As far as I knew, the LotD were presumed to be the missing Fire Hawks chapter from the cursed founding, who could become swathed in ethereal flames and not be consumed by them. It's one of those things that you never want explained too much as the air of mystery is one of those cool things about them.

 

Were my conversion skills up to snuff, I'd probably tackle them as a fun conversion army.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

The nurgles rot part is complete new to me as well. As far as I knew, the LotD were presumed to be the missing Fire Hawks chapter from the cursed founding, who could become swathed in ethereal flames and not be consumed by them. It's one of those things that you never want explained too much as the air of mystery is one of those cool things about them.

 

Were my conversion skills up to snuff, I'd probably tackle them as a fun conversion army.

Lexicanum mentions they suffer a disease, but makes no mention of nurgle, so maybe the origin of that rumor is what they’re referring to?

[ZeroWolf]

 

Lexicanum mentions they suffer a disease, but makes no mention of nurgle, so maybe the origin of that rumor is what they’re referring to?

Possibly but even that would be news to me 

 

That said, if GW ever wanted to reconcile the ghost marines of 'Master of Mankind' with the LotD, they'd do it. Wouldn't be the first retcon they've done and wouldn't be the biggest either.

[Alternis]

 

Lexicanum mentions they suffer a disease, but makes no mention of nurgle, so maybe the origin of that rumor is what they’re referring to?

Ah yes this lore point. 
 

if I remember correctly it was a warp jump related accident that afflicted them, and now their bodies are constantly being decayed, however they inadvertently are invulnerable to conventional weaponry as a side effect, the flames are just a byproduct of the affliction 

[Tacitus]

 

Every Primarch that’s returned has changed in someway, and has a new physical appearance. 
 

Guilliman - Armour of Fate 

 

Lion - Old 

 

Russ - I can’t see him being mutated as he has a natural resistance to all things warp, but he will have a new appearance. 

Sanguinius - Hard to say, in a way Sanguinius coming back as he was, wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world, but at the same time it’s not the trend, so I see him coming back Darker, more troubled, and possibly struggling to hold back a deep wrath inside of him 

 

Dorn - Given all he’s been through, I can see Dorn not really being this noblebright being in shiny gold armour, being this immovable walking fortress. 
he’s broken, darker, almost fell to Angron, and is blaming himself for a lot of what’s happened and is seeking redemption, he’s more in line now with black Templar mentality then the imperial fist mentality up until the closing of the heresy 

Its usually wargear, but I'd say the bigger difference for Guilliman was the sword.  (Ironically the Gladius had a name more fitting to the Big Honking Flame Blade) The Lion has a shield.  Actually as I think about it, both of them are the wargear of the Emperor.  Which is going to make me feel pretty sad for the last one to show back up being stuck with the Golden Codpiece.  More seriously, I wouldn't be surprised to see the wargear tied into their "function" in the arc - Avenging Son, Shield of Humanity, etc etc.  So maybe the last guy with the Codpiece isn't so bad if he has to repopulate the Earth. 

 

Maybe Russ gets the Emperor's Motorbike, or his cloak.  More likely the cloak that gives flight.  Dorn probably gets the gauntlets cause he's got some Graphiti on his fists issues. 

 

I'll eat my words if it happens, but I just don't see it doing that. If he appears then changes in his lore can be true but he'll at most maybe hell sport a Templar cross but otherwise be his gold self.

 

I just don't see him moving and setting up shop in the Templar codex.

I think they set him up as available to all three of his official Chapters - He probably stays in Custodes/Auric Gold armor. 

[Karhedron]

 

Maybe Russ gets the Emperor's Motorbike, or his cloak.  More likely the cloak that gives flight. 

 

Russ already has the Emperor's spear so it would be fitting for him to use that. Mind you, last time it was seen I think Ragnar threw it into Magnus's eye. But it apparently had a habit of finding its way back to Russ, even if he didn't want it.

[Tacitus]

 

 

On the name alone, Legion of the Damned are damned. They're suffering eternally as punishment for their sins.  They aren't  tragic martyrs of istvaan.  

They marines who've done something wrong.

 

The Legion are also physical beings, and their bodies are infested with nurgle's rot which is being constantly burned away by holy flames.  They  phase in and out of tangibility like a mystical version of a teleporter.  they're not made of light like the spectres in the HH novel.

 

I'd point out that like your Nine Legions each - leaving one "mystery" Legion for people to make their own thing, the Legion of the Damned are also intentionally mysterious and "unfinished" so players can do their own spin. 

[Tacitus]

 

Ah yes, the return of

Fulgrim will stick with swords, but they'll be new swords. One may be a parrying blade that gives him an invuln and a couple EXTRA ATTACKS.  They've so far worked pretty hard to keep the 30K and 40K models not-interchangeable. 

 

Russ won't come back as a full on wulfen, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a wolf head as a magnetizable option in his model kit.   My guess is he trades in his Pelt for the Shroud of the Emperor that gives him flight (I think they make the 40K Loyalists with more mobility to offset all the winged Daemon Primarchs - like the Lion and his Green Knight schtick. 

 

I'm not sure Dorn keeps the chainsword.  Guilliman has the Sword of the Emperor for "sweep" and the Hand for "Strike", Lion lost his chainsword and powersword to get a new Powersword with actual strike and sweep modes. 

 

The Khan will of course get a new sword.

 

Vulkan gets a flaming hammer. 

 

 

[Gamiel]

 

Sure, but the Rafen books have been ignored and retconned on purpose unlike Horus Rising. They exist in a grey area where maybe some parts are still true but the big events clearly not.

Since Deus Encarmine is Black Library's book of the month do it seem that we can't anymore say that they are ignored 

[Blindhamster]

 

Since Deus Encarmine is Black Library's book of the month do it seem that we can't anymore say that they are ignored 

There are some references to the events, at least loosely.

 

that said, it’s an awful series. So far I’ll pretend it doesn’t exist
 

[Helias_Tancred]

 

There are some references to the events, at least loosely.

 

that said, it’s an awful series. So far I’ll pretend it doesn’t exist
 

 

Amen. It is unbelievably horrible. I mean the second omnibus is a tad more bearable, but not by much.

 

 

 

Since Deus Encarmine is Black Library's book of the month do it seem that we can't anymore say that they are ignored 

 

GW will never let absolute garbage get in the way of making a dime.

[lansalt]

I'm somewhat tempted about reading it. It cannot be worse than the Beast series, right?

[Gamiel]

 

that said, it’s an awful series. So far I’ll pretend it doesn’t exist
 

Would not say they were awful. Not saying they were great, and there was some questionable parts but awful is a to strong word.

 

 

I'm somewhat tempted about reading it. It cannot be worse than the Beast series, right?

I say read it and make your own opinion. There have been more than one book that others have declared bad that I have had no problem with, or even liked. 

[Blindhamster]

The latter books were indeed better but the original two books plot was incredibly poor and contrived.

[calgar101]

One of my own 'head cannon' ideas, was that on Eskrandor, Alpharius and Guilliman actually had dialogue. Alpharius explaining the situation to his brother and the pair coming up with a plan. I'd love something like that to have happened and Alpharius and a large chunk of taint free Alpha Legion to return to the fold. The Emperor having a hand in it.

 

Some other Primarchs returning, those whoa fates are subject to mystique, can be brought back; if the writing is done well. However those who are dead, to me would cheapen the narrative.. even if it would be cool as.

 

 

[DemonGSides]

 

I'm somewhat tempted about reading it. It cannot be worse than the Beast series, right?

 

I liked The Beast series a lot more even though The Beast has it's own set of problems. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

Since Deus Encarmine is Black Library's book of the month do it seem that we can't anymore say that they are ignored 

For sale doesn’t mean the stories aren’t ignored by the lore team.

[LSM]

 

..As far as I knew, the LotD were presumed to be the missing Fire Hawks chapter from the cursed founding, who could become swathed in ethereal flames and not be consumed by them....

 

Minor point of clarification.

• The Fire Hawks were a Cursed Founding chapter, originally named (I think) in Index Astartes: Legion of the Damned from 1988. They contracted a warp-disease while in transit, which drove individuals insane and killed them, but made them incredibly powerful before their deaths. Because they were "damned" to ignoble deaths (and crazy, though still loyal) they repainted their armour black, with images of skeletons burning in the fires of purgatory. Rules wise, they were better Marines, who had a one-in-six chance of a Berzerker Death Spasm every time they charged (became an independent character, charge range increased from 8" to 16", attacks from 3 to 6, strength from 5 to 8, if they killed everyone around them could make unlimited 4" extra charge and fights, and then died). In the follow up rules to 2001's Index Astartes: The Cursed Founding, The LotD gained a bit more mystery (only probably being the Fire Hawks), and changing rules wise to be focussed on the way they mysteriously appeared to help before disappearing - which is to say, your whole force got Deep Strike and a 6++.
• The Flame Falcons are a second, different Cursed Founding chapter (with a similar name). As far as I know, they first appear alongside the LotD in 2001, as a chapter mostly purged by the Inquisition after their mutation (of being wreathed in flames that they were unaffected by) was deemed heretical. Their rule was "Immolation", which made them always count as being in cover (as far as a cover save and being charged was concerned).

The Fire Hawks and Flame Falcons often get merged when discussions of the Legion of the Damned arise, but they were two separate Chapters written about in the same article (ie. one was not intended to be a retcon of the other).

 

It is also my understanding that while I had drifted out of the hobby, the LotD were reimagined as Ghost Riders, which doesn't help.

 

//

 

Having recently re-read all the IA articles from the early 2000's, a couple things that jumped out at me:

• Rogal Dorn is "dressed in the black of mourning" after the Heresy, and is named as "the avenging son" while Guilliman was left in (effective) charge. "He saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure, and his crusade as penance." It then talks about how Dorn became increasingly saddened by his brothers' deaths, and increasingly uncomfortable about their deification, right before recounting the story of his own death. // Which is to say, you don't have to go far for a "he faked his death" narrative.
• For Russ, his disappearance is very purposeful. At a Feast of the Ascension (celebrating the Emperor's victory over Horus) Russ climbs onto the table, and all fall quiet, expecting one of his legendary speeches. But.. he just freezes. For minutes, his yellow eyes glazed over and iron muscles locked in spasm. Those gathered begin to worry, before he crashes down loudly onto his knees. He turns to his most loyal retainers and quietly issues unknown instructions. His face lined with sorrow, he tells his Chapter: "In the end, I will return to you. For the final battle. For the Wolftime." He then leaves with his retainers, never to be seen again. // The main point being, he didn't get caught out, or disappear accidentally, like many of his brothers. Someone communed with him, telling/showing him what he needed to do, and he went to do it, expecting to come back in the distant future.
• With Ferrus Manus a story is presented that, his body never having been recovered from Istvaan V, some say that he was taken and repaired and that he currently resides on Mars, but the Iron Hands violently refute this. What they teach is: when the Emperor fell, the psychic shockwave reached Ferrus even in death, and his anguished spirit appeared before his Legion. It spoke of his fears for mankind, and a great calamity that would assail humanity in the future, but promised that he would return to lead them through the darkness. The Iron Hands believe that thereafter Ferrus' soul ascended to a paradise realm where he fights eternally, getting ever stronger, preparing for the Time of Darkness when his light will be needed most of all. // So Ferrus has always had a return myth associated with him. (If I'm not mistaken, the IA article was the first place that it was established that he had died at Istvaan V - to the point where the Black Templar IA article, published just a year before the Iron Hands' one, mentions Ferrus as being one of Primarchs that backed Guilliman in implementing the Codex Astartes, post-Heresy.)
• The White Scars believe that one day the Emperor will rise from the Golden Throne and mount a second Great Crusade. On that day, Jaghatai Khan will return from the void and lead his people. // A quite simple return, though a bit boring. I don't like the idea of returned Primarchs just being the same as their Horus Heresy selves (that only works once), so would like to see it spiced up somehow.
• Corax, after seeing his Chapter returned to some degree of normalcy, goes into the dungeons of the Ravenspire and personally gives the Emperor's peace to all the monsters that his genetic tampering created. (In this older lore, Corax doesn't get anything from the Emperor, nor is it sabotaged by the Alpha Legion. He made a choice to tamper, and that choice both failed to get the Legion to effective fighting strength, creating monsters instead of marines, and permanently destabilised the Raven Guard gene-seed.) He then locks himself in the Ravenspire for a year, to pray to the Emperor for forgiveness for his actions. He emerges, haggard and wild-eyed, and leaves on a course for the Eye of Terror, saying only: "Nevermore." // This could be read as the Emperor telling him to go do something, but I always took it (as a kid) as Corax going to commit suicide. Perhaps that could still have been the intent, and he was just too good to die fighting? Hard to reintegrate into the Raven Guard as a suicidal shadow-daemon, hard to square "nevermore" with a sane, well-adjusted Chapter leader (the Raven Guard being a relatively sane, well-adjusted Chapter).

//

 

My general thought on the Traitor side is that I like the five currently most active (the Cult Primarchs, plus Abaddon as a unifying Horus stand-in). Lorgar would be fun to see return, and makes sense to me as "the Undivided Primarch". Curze should stay dead, Alpharius/Omegon I prefer as dead/background (as I like the Alpha Legion being so un-unified), and Perturabo... as an Iron Warriors guy, I like that he established his superiority for all time and then retired. (I also feel like, as he's inherently a paranoid bitter jerk, he would secretly be afraid of being defeated if he actually went out and did stuff personally again.) 

 

On the Loyalist side, I like Guilliman as the "unchanged" "oh-my-god-what-insanity-is-all-this" guy. (But like I said, I think this only works once.) Jonson has returned, and... it has seemed like such a non-event that I'm just confused. Hard to say anything about him, and the ramifications of him, as there's so little (so far!) presented. I think the other two divergent Chapters - Space Wolves and Blood Angels - should then get back Russ and a Primarch-level Sanguinor (whoops). Return the Salamanders to being a divergent Chapter (as in Codex: Armageddon) and return Vulkan, and mirror the four Chaos Cult Legions. Have Dorn come back, so that the main codex has Guilliman and Dorn in the way that CSM have Abaddon and Lorgar. And then... sorry, but leave Ferrus, Jaghatai, and Corax on the bench.

 

(Okay, okay, the Loyalists get more than Chaos... bring back Jaghatai too...)

 

//

 

Edit; Alternate thought: I forgot that the Black Templars kind of stand as "the fourth" divergent Chapter already, so give them Dorn (though allow him to also field in Imperial Fists armies), and leave the Salamanders as Codex compliant (I guess). Vulkan and Jaghatai can fight over who gets to be the second C:SM Primarch.

Edited September 6 by LSM

[Tacitus]

I think the problem with that is that you've just told about a third of the chapters they're second class.  I think if you do it for one, you do it for all of them.  I don't think everyone has to get a flesh and blood direct and literal return/reincarnation - I think a Super Dread (and I love the brotherly tie ins of it being the final treasure He'stan discovers, built by Vulkan, piloted by the spirit/brain/whatever of Ferus Manus) Dark Sanguinius created by the physical coalescence of every stain of Black Rage in every Blood Angel and successor gathered in one spot whatever.  I think (as they did it for some) they need to create some sort of Primarch tinged big centerpiece leader+beatstick model for each First Founding Legion that can then serve in any of their "children" Chapters etc. 

 

Edit to Add:  You're right about the vacuum following the return of the Lion.  There's something to this following (almost) all of the returning Primarchs.  The story between Calgar and Guilliman, Lion and Azrael, Magnus and Ahriman - let alone the Primarchs and the OTHER Primarchs and major characters of the universe- has been pretty lacking.  It almost feels like the Black Library was blindsided by the whole thing.   They've teased some of it, but delivered none of it.  I think they want to keep some rivalry between Guilliman and Lion so they're in a holding pattern until Russ (or Whoever is third to recreate the Triumvurate) arrives - but that still doesn't answer why we haven't seen some UM and DA chapter books with the Primarchs making "peace" with their Chapter Master favored son, the local buearacracies etc. 

Edited September 7 by Tacitus

[Orange Knight]

I think Sanguinius will be the 4th loyalist to return. He's already had a significant role in several "meta plot" 40k novels.

 

I also think that following the reveals in the "End and the Death" novels, his sacrifice wasn't as pivotal to the setting as originally imagined. This is one of the downsides of the over-detailing of events in the bloated Heresy series.

 

On the topic of Black Library, I have no idea why we aren't getting several novels about the Lion and his return to the Imperium, and the impact he's making. I find it odd we don't have a campaign book at the least. I'm actually very frustrated about this and I don't really understand why it's not being covered. If something is in the works they should at least announce it.

[Gamiel]

 

On the topic of Black Library, I have no idea why we aren't getting several novels about the Lion and his return to the Imperium, and the impact he's making. I find it odd we don't have a campaign book at the least. I'm actually very frustrated about this and I don't really understand why it's not being covered. If something is in the works they should at least announce it.

Gw have a history of not publishing fiction to many of the the big events they present us with. This is nothing new, we will get it when we get it.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Sanguinius feels sort of like a missed train... or does X amount of years have to pass between each primarch release? Then Fulgrim is still a few years off, and either Russ or Sang will be coming 2030?

[Helias_Tancred]

 

I think Sanguinius will be the 4th loyalist to return. He's already had a significant role in several "meta plot" 40k novels.

 

I also think that following the reveals in the "End and the Death" novels, his sacrifice wasn't as pivotal to the setting as originally imagined. This is one of the downsides of the over-detailing of events in the bloated Heresy series.

 

On the topic of Black Library, I have no idea why we aren't getting several novels about the Lion and his return to the Imperium, and the impact he's making. I find it odd we don't have a campaign book at the least. I'm actually very frustrated about this and I don't really understand why it's not being covered. If something is in the works they should at least announce it.

 

Because slow-walking everything = a promised means of continued profits ... as long as the current customer numbers aren't falling off a ledge. However, as having worked for GW for two years in the past, I will tell you that they believe their customers are replaceable, and their most diehard ones are never leaving. Their logic is that their IP is so good, their models are the best, and everything that supports it, that they're basically selling crack. Knowing that explains why many of their actions as a company are not customer friendly.

 

 

Edited September 7 by Helias_Tancred

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I want Rogal Dorn back. The other inferior Primarchs are irrelevant novelties. 

[ZeroWolf]

 

Sanguinius feels sort of like a missed train... or does X amount of years have to pass between each primarch release? Then Fulgrim is still a few years off, and either Russ or Sang will be coming 2030?

We don't have much data to go on really other than we've got at least 1 an edition...and we got both Angron and Lion back in the previous edition/ last year. We know Fulgrim is 100% coming to plastic 40k in the next two years (place your bets on next year or if Emperors Children gets the dubious honor of last codex in 10th edition) so we'll have to see if 9th started the pattern of a loyalist and a traitor.

 

As for fiction regarding the returned. We'll probably get something in the end of edition narrative campaign, other than that they may be name dropped in white Dwarf snippets and the like (not exciting I know but GW seem conservative when using the primarchs like this...still have more than poor Votann though)