Vanguard Vets in 10th, how would equip them? Would you kit-bash or wait?

[Dr. Clock]

Sure yeah - I'm okay with more strike/sweep integration in 'Elite' circles as long as that means we can get away from having multiple loadouts in every squad and thus eliminate the wonky in-game decision-making on 'who takes these wounds' or indeed the very idea of a rules-focused discussion about 'how to best model this box of miniatures'.

 

Once you use that mechanic a good few times though, I'd start to wonder why we'd bother keeping Sgt/Champ or special/heavy options in any squads. Instead of writing those out of the rules as such right now, you can kinda see how they're largely being removed from new kits, with the notable exception of Kill Team kits. I wouldn't be super surprised if 11th or 12th edition comes out far, far more streamlined in terms of how many options there are per unit, and in general the distinction between modeled options being reduced in emphasis across the ruleset. 

 

As to the Troops business - I definitely prefer the contemporary option of taking battleline purely for the good OC or cheap Leader bodyguards/combos instead of locking 'the good stuff' away behind them.

 

Definitely a bit OT at this point - apologies as needed to OP: hoping you found a good solution! Let us know where you land!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[HeadlessCross]

 

I think/hope the Strike/Sweep paradigm gets more popular going forward.  Truth be told I think that was the downfall of the "troop tax" units.  "TROOPS" and a few/most of the ELITES (depending on faction) should have all been TAC.  The FAST ATTACK and HEAVY SUPPORT should have (usually) been the more specialized. 

Strike/Sweep on the Vanguard weapons would've made people less mad I imagine. 

 

It also isn't like they couldn't have written a core rule that, if you hold two of the same melee weapon, you get Shred. That would've made people less salty as well. 

[Tacitus]

The other thing could have been to give them Melta Bombs Range: A(1 or 2) Melee S 10 AP -4 D D6+2 for the "strike" and the heirlooms at -2 D2 makes equivalent but "nicer" Strike/Sweep. It also should have been done for the Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs to replace the lost Eviscerators - Jump Armies common to BA and RG have a pretty hefty hole in Anti-Tank.  The Deathwing style army still has storm bolters + power/chain fists, lascannon + ML and Plas/Dakka + Fist Dreads, Lascannon Landraiders, etc to cover Anti-Tank.  Just another example of GW not doing second-order-causation.

[TheArtilleryman]

 

I run mine with 5 Storm Shields and 5 Inferno pistols. I play Blood Angels so for a few more weeks at least, I also run them with a Sanguinary Priest so they are AP-2 and also S7 on the charge.

I don’t think you can do this, can you? You can replace the pistols with either a storm shield or a different pistol, but you can’t replace the melee weapon. At least not on the app.

 

 

 

I'm asking because I might put together a small Raven Guard collection, and a 10 man squad of Vanguard Veterans with jump packs would be a mainstay of that force. Not only in terms of one of its best or better units, but also very thematic.

 

 

 

This is exactly what I did. Just before 10th hit I made a squad of VV from assault intercessors with mkIV jump packs, gave the sergeant a power fist and the rest lightning claws. Now totally invalid.

 

At some point I plan to add some small tilt shields like the ones on Grey Knight terminators, to represent the storm shields. That way I can still have the lightning claw look and say I have the shield too. I’d prefer we had all the old options back, but that will have to do.

Edited September 3 by TheArtilleryman

[Karhedron]

 

I don’t think you can do this, can you? You can replace the pistols with either a storm shield or a different pistol, but you can’t replace the melee weapon. At least not on the app.

 

All 10 have Heirloom weapons, 5 have Storm Shields and the other 5 have Inferno Pistols. That means 5 have no ranged attacks but I think 5 IPs are better than 10 BPs against everything except chaff and the Heirloom weapons are great for scything through chaff.

[TheArtilleryman]

 

 

All 10 have Heirloom weapons, 5 have Storm Shields and the other 5 have Inferno Pistols. That means 5 have no ranged attacks but I think 5 IPs are better than 10 BPs against everything except chaff and the Heirloom weapons are great for scything through chaff.

Ah, squad of 10, gotcha. Thought you meant 5 with pistols and shields. Makes sense. Also 5 shields helps with survivability before the charge; makes it less likely you’ll lose guys on the way across the field.

Edited September 3 by TheArtilleryman

[SvenIronhand]

I'm in a mood to wait. I don't necessarily feel a burning need for jump pack vets at current, but options are options. 

[Helias_Tancred]

 

I'm in a mood to wait. I don't necessarily feel a burning need for jump pack vets at current, but options are options. 

 

I'd normally agree, but I'm looking at starting a Raven Guard collection in the not too distant future, and a full 10 man Vanguard Veteran unit is a core part of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9 by Helias_Tancred

[TheArtilleryman]

 

 

I'd normally agree, but I'm looking at starting a Raven Guard collection in the not too distant future, and a full 10 man Vanguard Veteran unit is a core part of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Suggestion:

 

Model them all with lightning claws (if that’s how you want them), tilt shields (to represent storm shields) and a holstered pistol (that may or may not be used). That way you can nominate any equipment you want in your army list and still have them looking Raven Guardy.

Edited September 9 by TheArtilleryman

[Marshal Reinhard]

I don't particularily care what their rules would be, the rules will change with new editions anyway. The new sternguard had a wealth of options despite combi weapons being streamlined into a single profile. 

 

Im also hoping there was enough backlash over 10th's simplification overreach that perhaps some changes are rolled back. 

 

Regardless a new kit should be fine

[Forté]

I feel that the jump ints for 25 points less and the potential extra mortals currently work better. Especially when teamed with a Chaplain.

 

Sadly, I can't see them doing a kit for the jump vets any time soon, unless they do it for Kill Team.

[DemonGSides]

 

 

Sadly, I can't see them doing a kit for the jump vets any time soon, unless they do it for Kill Team.

 

What's your reasoning for this?  On both sides, here's my thoughts;

 

A) We are currently in an edition that has seen two Veteran Units updated already; seems like kind of a no brainer if we're in the middle of "Veterans are being brought to Primaris" to also add Vanguard Veterans at some point (I don't disagree on the "soon" part; I figure it might be all the way til 11th that we see them, since GW likes splitting up releases over a long time)

 

B) Kill Team?  There are like, 0 SM Veterans available in KT currently and I don't think they're going to introduce a 10 man Jump Pack team to KT.  If they were, this would definitely be the timing considering the new Scions and Vespids, so definitely maybe.

Just interested in your thoughts!

[Forté]

 

 

What's your reasoning for this?  On both sides, here's my thoughts;

 

Sorry for the delayed response. Missed any notification somehow.

 

Anyway...

 

My main reasoning is because so far in 10th, new kits have been released either with the initial box release or when a codex has been released. The only other times have been for a Kill Team release.

 

As for my thinking along the Kill Team possibility. Their whole thing with the 2 latest teams has been "look to the sky", so a jump squad would definitely fit into that idea. Plus, the other standard Codex jump troops have more current, Primaris box sets. Vanguard Vets are one of the main existing units without an updated kit.

 

That's pretty much where my thought process went. Obviously, I'm happy to be wrong and to just see a kit updated so those who want to run them alongside the current Vet minis can without having to kitbash. Plus it'll be interesting to see where they take the design.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

As for my thinking along the Kill Team possibility. Their whole thing with the 2 latest teams has been "look to the sky", so a jump squad would definitely fit into that idea. Plus, the other standard Codex jump troops have more current, Primaris box sets. Vanguard Vets are one of the main existing units without an updated kit.

would be an obvious place to maybe fix rievers too - they should have a similar insertion method to the scions, getting some specialist weapon options could really help that unit in 40k too.

[HeadlessCross]

 

would be an obvious place to maybe fix rievers too - they should have a similar insertion method to the scions, getting some specialist weapon options could really help that unit in 40k too.

Reivers have so many problems they need their own thread on how to fix them. 

[Blindhamster]

made even more sad by how awesome the vanguard is in space marine 2!

But yeah, i would say rievers would be a better fit for kill team personally. But I do agree than vanguard would also fit the look to the skies theme, although i swear valrak said that isn't common for the edition.

[DemonGSides]

I almost grabbed a clearance box of Reivers to use as additional different on foot DC bodies but even that wasn't a tempting enough usage for them.

[Dr. Clock]

 

I almost grabbed a clearance box of Reivers to use as additional different on foot DC bodies but even that wasn't a tempting enough usage for them.

Lol now I'm just waiting for GW to release melta Reivers so that I can convert mine to the SMII version ; )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Tawnis]

I run mine with Hand Flamers in the Firestorm Assault Force. Drop in with a Jump Captain and Immolation Protocols something into oblivion (they are S4 with Dev Wounds), then go charge something with your S6 weapons. (I use the FW Ashen Circle models for this as they look super cool.)

Edited October 3 by Tawnis

[Dr. Clock]

 

I run mine with Hand Flamers in the Firestorm Assault Force. Drop in with a Jump Captain and Immolation Protocols something into oblivion (they are S4 with Dev Wounds), then go charge something with your S6 weapons. (I use the FW Ashen Circle models for this as they look super cool.)

Brilliant. I definitely do not hate the idea of pure pistols in 2x5s... and we're pretty permissive with the WYSIWYG at my table so I'll probably give that a try at some point - Loving the idea of 2x5 deathwatch vanguard joining my armoured/mounted Salamanders Firestorm. S:9 infernos don't seem bad either, especially if Vulkan can help out and/or you can use Crucible of Battle ; ) Unto the Anvil of War!

 

I took 2x5 (1x2 flamer, 1x2 inferno) in a Vanguard Deathwatch list the other day and they did... okay. Both failed their charges from DS, but they were not unique in that regard (I failed 5 in a row in my turn 2)... Mostly I lost for other reasons, and the infernos w/ chaplain definitely almost killed the maulerfiend they charged, but it was left on 3 wounds after chaplain flubbed wound rolls, and it was Pactbound Slaanesh so they all died on the slapback : ( Then the Captain's unit... almost killed the Chaos Lord and Raptors that dropped in my rear, but ended up dying themselves (a single 6 on my wounds would have let captain survive the boss fight, but I was rolling pretty terribly all night).

 

No matter how you really slice it being nerfed to effectively chainswords feels like it lets these blokes down tremendously. The stormshields are still really uneven from a defence standpoint, meaning massed pistols is probably the best way to actually kill stuff with them (I'm definitely going to go to a 3:2 pistol to shield ratio instead of my original 2:3). Contra my usual strategy of letting gunners die first in mixed units, it seems like the storm shields are definitely the best redshirts for all incoming as if you have any surviving through opponent turn you want to have pistols left in combat for sure.

 

Strategically, I am definitely realizing that conventional 'DS and charge' mentality simply won't achieve much with vanvets. Plan in future is probably hide one on a flank for early interdiction and Rapid Ingress the other on an edge in turn 2 ready to pounce with infernos. They're unfortunately not really worth investing in other than as glorified action monkeys and chaffe bullies... But they're still relatively cheap and every list needs a bit of that speed and flex. Definitely not the most efficient, but they look so cool!

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Cenobite Terminator]

Best to rapid ingress VV when they can come in on a good position.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I’m waiting and really hoping heirloom weapons goes away, or we at least get some other options like heirloom blades and heirloom bludgeons. So you can have one that’s an actual AT option, and one more specialized to infantry 

[Karhedron]

I suspect we will need to wait for 11th edition for Van Vets to get the Primaris treatment before we see improved weapon loadouts. I am not getting my hopes up too high though as Primaris units don't tend to get a big variety of options.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I suspect we will need to wait for 11th edition for Van Vets to get the Primaris treatment before we see improved weapon loadouts. I am not getting my hopes up too high though as Primaris units don't tend to get a big variety of options.

I’m expecting a fancy powerfist option and generic fancy powersword/axe/whatever option.

[brother_b]

The fact we all accept and await the inevitable 3 year cycle is dismaying. I was hoping Van Vets would be released soon as I expect them to be great models.