Thematic Discussion of Female Custodes - Straight From the Page

[StrangerOrders]

 

I just think its propaganda. 10K companions? 10K dudes (and now dudettes) that he needs to talk to? I dont buy it.

 

Valdor, sure. The rest of them? Nah.

 

Much of the FW stuff I loved, but when they went "Oh and the Proto Night Lords are all recruited from the absolute pits of Terra, and are hideous nightmares BEFORE ever meeting their Primarch..." they totally lost the plot.

 

The Emperor was on a downward trajectory for sure, and gave up his humanity, but this is The Emperor. Hes not holding court with a bunch of people who he has programmed to be loyal to him. This is the Custodes going 'what is my purpose' and convincing themselves that they are import enough to be his companions. :D

 

There is still going to be some variety, Nature vs Nurture, it cannot be TOTALLY erased, but I just dont really see the point of the Custodes I guess. Outside of being HIS LOYAL GUARDS, what are they? I dont buy it that they are all 'facets of the Emperor' or something, so what?

 

I dont know, you do you, but I just dont think I like them really, outside of that very specific Valdor template.

The irony of my personally loathing Valdor as a spineless backroom whisperer for the lies he spread to the other Custodes (while enjoying him as a character) seems like a good place to wrap up then, we really do just have opposite views it seems. Was fun though! 

 

And hey, we can collect stamps (or horrendously expensive plastic armies) and have special effort and touches on each without really saying that need to clutch them to our breasts the entire time!

 

One man's Immortal Captain-General is another man's Limited Edition Mini-Primarch with Catty Mean-Girl Action!

Edited September 10 by StrangerOrders

[Marshal Rohr]

 

but I just dont really see the point of the Custodes I guess.

The point of the Custodes has been to show up in novels about the greatest war in the history of mankind and coolest setting in the IP to be huge [redacted] to the legions trying to keep the whole thing together because it is beyond the ability of Games Workshop to create drama between the antagonists and protagonists and instead create drama between the protagonists and the antagonists are just kind of there. I mean really? I can’t think of a book where the actual story conflict was the war and not Custodes vs Fists or mean mortals against nice marines or chaos backstabbery. The whole point of the Custodes is what the Ladystode did in tithes. Show up, be insufferably uncooperative, and leave. 

[Rob P]

 

I just think its propaganda. 10K companions? 10K dudes (and now dudettes) that he needs to talk to? I dont buy it.

 

Valdor, sure. The rest of them? Nah.

 

Much of the FW stuff I loved, but when they went "Oh and the Proto Night Lords are all recruited from the absolute pits of Terra, and are hideous nightmares BEFORE ever meeting their Primarch..." they totally lost the plot.

 

The Emperor was on a downward trajectory for sure, and gave up his humanity, but this is The Emperor. Hes not holding court with a bunch of people who he has programmed to be loyal to him. This is the Custodes going 'what is my purpose' and convincing themselves that they are import enough to be his companions. :D

 

There is still going to be some variety, Nature vs Nurture, it cannot be TOTALLY erased, but I just dont really see the point of the Custodes I guess. Outside of being HIS LOYAL GUARDS, what are they? I dont buy it that they are all 'facets of the Emperor' or something, so what?

 

I dont know, you do you, but I just dont think I like them really, outside of that very specific Valdor template.

It's a good point.

 

Something similar could be said about Space Marines. And I think it's about novelisation and character.

 

40k space marines shouldn't (imo) be a bunch of personalities. The hyper indoctrination should leave them almost soulless super soldiers who have been programmed to be beholden to their chapter's weird little rituals. The child should be gone but it doesn't lend itself well to protagonists so the novels fudge it.

 

Same with custodes. They could all be Valdors but if they are going to be prominent in a novel with more than one custodes they need to have character beyond experience of different conflicts. Either the novels impose a personality for difference or the codex is a little drier than reality.

 

I kinda see your point and @Marshal Rohr's separate point about the custodes. I don't feel they serve an interesting purpose in the setting (maybe in 30k) but Marshal is right that there use is often to present internal conflict (often one-note "those space marines were a bad idea"). Is that enough? Not a point to explore here but they have turned up to sell models that people asked for, right?

 

Fundamentally, going back to earlier points, female custodes don't change the setting and do not present much in the way of a new direction in stories. This is because aliens take the role of the target of prejudice for people. Race, gender, sex, and all other points of differences (save perhaps class) are not features of the themes which means female custodes aren't an in-world point for conflict. Having previously discussed how the impact of the inclusion of female custodes is only materially felt outside of the lore, I'll leave that there.

[DukeLeto69]

TL:DR

 

I mean I did read some posts and the passion and depth of lore knowledge was pretty spectacular.

 

But in the real world, as noted by someone several pages back, the GW product development team and marketing folks don’t care. They want female Custodes to sell models (or make Amazon happy if you believe that rumour) then we are getting them. As usual lore changes will be badly handled (looking at you Primaris and Cawl) and will make little in-setting sense.

 

BIG SIGH

 

For a long time now I have inhabited a twilight realm of (mixed) head canon. I haven’t played the TT game for years, so that probably makes it easier. So things I don’t like can either be hand waved away or adjusted to suit me (heck my head canon for two decades has smerged Dune with W40k anyway with the former being part of the pre-HH history).

 

So for ME the concept of Custodes (or Astartes) having a gender has long since sailed. They have always been transhuman (well for 20 real world years) in my head. Because the genetic process used to create these ultimate guardians and warriors is so invasive as to render the gender of the baseline “material” irrelevant. 
 

So if the noviciate (is that the word?) starts as male or female, it matters not. If they survive the selection process, then the surgical mutation process, then the end product is simple going to be “other” as without the requirement (or ability) to procreate, gender ceases to be necessary.

 

So really, IMHO, Custodes (and Astartes) should be asexual. Making a Custodes clearly female is, based on above, simply and plainly silly and illogical (but this also applies to making them male, they are “other”).

 

Ergo, if GW makes models with clearly female faces or boob plate, it is really a nonsense. The female baseline candidates who successfully transform via the medical and indoctrination procedures will cease to have female physical characteristics (including breasts - because they do not need to procreate and provide sustenance to offspring).

 

@Scribe said it well…

 

 

 

There is no 'representation' in transhumanism. Nobody on this planet is operated on, stuffed full of extra organs, psycho-conditioned into a killing machine, and modified at a molecular level to be a perfect tool for a Corpse God who's government is bent on the genoicde of anyone who stands against them.

Edited September 10 by DukeLeto69

[wecanhaveallthree]

>because they do not need to procreate and provide sustenance to offspring

 

And yet, we have a dozen shower scenes where all aspects of Astartes wargear are carefully appraised. We also have a whole bunch of scenes calling Custodes flamin' hot, too.

 

If there are female Custodes, I would infinitely prefer them to continue the 'unreal human ideal' and be totally stacked muscle mommies. A Venus to the existing Adonis, if you will. 

[Gamiel]

 

stacked muscle mommies. A Venus to the existing Adonis, if you will. 

Feels like Diana or Minerva would be more fitting

Edited September 10 by Gamiel

[The Scorpion]

 

 

And yet, we have a dozen shower scenes where all aspects of Astartes wargear are carefully appraised. We also have a whole bunch of scenes calling Custodes flamin' hot, too.

This is because Warhammer is homoerotic. It has nothing to do with femstodes.

 

The Custodia from Tithes is a good example of what one should look like. Extremely muscular, but her silhoutte keeps a residual female shape. No need for different armor since male auramite suits already come with boob plate. Face is still recognizably female in some ways, but mostly looks like she did a century long mewing streak.

[Roomsky]

 

As a thought experiment, try reading Watchers with Valerian as female. Consider what is lost when you remove that dimension of the relationship with Aleya, for example.

 

Drawing a blank on that one, WeCHAT. 

 

-

 

Re-opening this wound because I have some thoughts on Valdor.

 

Valdor does strike me as something of a masculine character, though this doesn't affect my indifference regarding Ladystodes because I view Valdor as a very singular being. The distance between a leader and their subordinates is a greater gulf than the distance between the sexes, IMO.

 

Valdor, pre-Heresy, is almost idealized masculinity. He is physically adept, decisive, and unflinchingly loyal. He also has depth, compassion, and like the idealized man of many, never compromises but simultaneously finds the cracks between his duties to be eminently kind and human (at least, as much as one can be in the Imperium.) Not exclusively masculine attributes, but as far as warriors go, he strikes me as the "good man" many strive to be.

 

During and post-Heresy, things are less clear-cut since Abnett's Valdor and Wraight's Valdor don't really act like the same person. For this discussion, I'm sticking with Wraight's.

 

In my view, the Heresy causes Valdor to undergo the struggle a lot of men seem to be feeling as the world changes around them. Many of his values are turned on their head and being the kind of person he was forced to be is no longer creating success. Change has brought turmoil, insecurity, and constantly hinders what he sees as his role. Post-Heresy, he is to adapt to an unthinkable situation (as an individual) on his own with no support. You can just feel his fatigue and irritation mounting with every subsequent story. He was sold an idea of existence and then had the rug pulled out from under him. He would like to go back to "the good old days." His increasingly odd behaviours are a result of his trying to put the newly rounded world into it's old square hole.

 

So, if Valdor was suddenly a women, I might raise an eyebrow. Not because women can't have that experience, but because I think it's thematically stronger if Valdor is a man.

 

I just don't find that most Custodes have the depth of Valdor.

[Captain Idaho]

That's an aspect I couldn't put my finger on but think is very pertinent. There is most certainly positivity in a story going over how a man might struggle with a changing galaxy around him, feeling left behind or just confused and not sure what the virtuous path might be. Likewise, seeing how other characters observe and judge such male characters as they flounder could be incredibly interesting.

 

Thanks for the extra thoughts on the matter. Never considered that before.

[Rob P]

 

 

-

 

Re-opening this wound because I have some thoughts on Valdor.

 

Valdor does strike me as something of a masculine character, though this doesn't affect my indifference regarding Ladystodes because I view Valdor as a very singular being. The distance between a leader and their subordinates is a greater gulf than the distance between the sexes, IMO.

 

Valdor, pre-Heresy, is almost idealized masculinity. He is physically adept, decisive, and unflinchingly loyal. He also has depth, compassion, and like the idealized man of many, never compromises but simultaneously finds the cracks between his duties to be eminently kind and human (at least, as much as one can be in the Imperium.) Not exclusively masculine attributes, but as far as warriors go, he strikes me as the "good man" many strive to be.

 

During and post-Heresy, things are less clear-cut since Abnett's Valdor and Wraight's Valdor don't really act like the same person. For this discussion, I'm sticking with Wraight's.

 

In my view, the Heresy causes Valdor to undergo the struggle a lot of men seem to be feeling as the world changes around them. Many of his values are turned on their head and being the kind of person he was forced to be is no longer creating success. Change has brought turmoil, insecurity, and constantly hinders what he sees as his role. Post-Heresy, he is to adapt to an unthinkable situation (as an individual) on his own with no support. You can just feel his fatigue and irritation mounting with every subsequent story. He was sold an idea of existence and then had the rug pulled out from under him. He would like to go back to "the good old days." His increasingly odd behaviours are a result of his trying to put the newly rounded world into it's old square hole.

 

So, if Valdor was suddenly a women, I might raise an eyebrow. Not because women can't have that experience, but because I think it's thematically stronger if Valdor is a man.

 

I just don't find that most Custodes have the depth of Valdor.

This is just referencing what you say above ... it seems like Valdor is an allegory for masculinity in the modern world.

 

 

[Scribe]

 

This is just referencing what you say above ... it seems like Valdor is an allegory for masculinity in the modern world.

 

 

A man exhausted by his efforts, nothing more to give to those who demand perfection, yet resigned to continue his duty regardless of any personal cost all while being devalued at every turn by those who he can see are failing at every step?

 

...

 

What me? I'm fine.

[Helias_Tancred]

Not a fan of the concept of female custodes. If they do this with space marines my opinion will strongly remain the same.

 

I don't like established norms in sci-fi and fantasy genres changed to current/modern social trends, values on  sex, race, sexual preferences, culture or anything similar. Indiana Jones is a white man, Laura Croft is a white woman, Detective John Shaft is a black man, Legolas and Gimli were not lovers, and you don't get a white actor to play Michael Jackson in a biopic. Things like that, I like them to remain how they are, they are part of the identity of the genre I have come to love. I like the classic stories, characters, genres as they were. There were never any female Custodes, there were never any male Adeptus Sororitas, and space marines did not have romantic sexual relationships, take wives, or a spouse, etc etc. or any other future crap they're going to try and retcon into the genre.  And along that same line I did not appreciate or like the changes Peter Jackson made in his LOTR movies (Faramir's moral confusion, Lorien elves at Helm's Deep, Gandalf constantly punked by the Witch King in ROTK, etc)  his hobbit movies (puke), Denis Villenueve's change to Chani in his Dune movies (and some other changes), etc.

 

edit: lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22 by Helias_Tancred