Thematic Discussion of Female Custodes - Straight From the Page

[StrangerOrders]

 

The official statement about the Exorcists being descended from the Grey Knights was only in the story "Headhunted" and it was based on conjecture derived from the Third War for Armageddon lore (hobbyists mistaking the Grey Knights being present at an initial test of the nascent Exorcists as being an indicator of the latter Chapter's lineage). No other official lore even implied that the Grey Knights were the Exorcists' progenitor. And then the Index Astartes article reversed it, making the Exorcists' descendance from the VIIth Legion official.

 

None of that is really relevant here, though, and further discussion about the Exorcists should be taken up in the Imperial Fists forum, and other Chapters within their respective forums. There have been numerous discussions about that subject over the years here at the B&C (as an Exorcists fan-boy, I've participated in most ).

 

The Sisters of Silence and Sisters of Battle are really only relevant here as examples of single-gender factions (despite conflation of the Eclessiarchy as a whole with the Adepta Sororitas). I don't know that either the Sisters of Silence or Sisters of Battle provide practical alternatives since neither represents transhumans. While I'm not a fan of unnecessary retcons, I've shifted my thinking and now accept that the introduction of female Custodians was necessary. The alternatives [for providing a method for female transhumans] would have been to introduce female Adeptus Astartes (and that would have resulted in considerably more uproar) or introduce an entirely new transhuman faction into the setting, which would have been derided by many. Ultimately, female Custodians are a very minor retcon and don't really harm the setting in any way. And if they help some [potential] members of the community to feel that they are represented, thereby increasing/sustaining their interest in the hobby and the overall health of the hobby, that's a win for everybody. After all, what is it about the Adeptus Custodes and Adeptus Astartes that appeal to a great many male hobbyists? Don't females deserve to have something that they find similarly appealing?

Respectfully pointing out that while I understand your point in the sense of lacking a grotesque silhoutte and not being enemies to all low-overhang buildings, SoS are indeed not transhuman.

 

They are, and have been noted in lore repeatedly, as being transhuman quite aside from being Blanks. For all that their enhancements lack the usual gelding. 

 

To bring up my examples again, humans generally can't move faster than Astartes, nor hack apart dreadnoughts. And normal humans are generally not mentioned to be heavily enhanced in the same line as the Imperium's coterie of monsters.

 

Otherwise agree that putting them in this convo is silly and it honestly somewhat reduces them to even do so. They are their own thing and do not need to be put on a pedestal with the Custodes to be 'good enough'.

 

But also if we all insist on continuing to throwing them in with SoB in any way/shape/form due to being monastic (literally their one non-gender similarity) will result in my referring to Cryptics, Exarchs, Praetorians and Incubii in with any reference to Custodes and Astartes in the future.

 

If we want to homogenize every deranged monastic order in the setting, then I'd like to point out that would encapsulate a not-insignificant portion of most every faction save Nids. I would indeed say that using it as an identifier at all is dubious as a result. 

 

Just pointing it out since it keeps popping back up, along with my little soap box that the SoS have very VERY good 40k books.

Edited September 9 by StrangerOrders

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

 

The problem with your argument is that the Codex narrator is not omniscient. We have examples of them stating things that are the "common" knowledge but not the whole/actual truth - e.g. the SM Codex saying that the Mentors and Exorcists are of unknown gene-seed after it has been established that they know their gene-linage (Um and IF gene-seed respectively).

 

Wish I could say "nice try" but this actually pretty terrible.

 

Both of the codex entries you refer to were written for NINTH Edition. They were just lazily copy-pasted into 10th along with the remainder of the successor chapters section. HOW lazy were the 10th-ed codex writers? So lazy that the only change they made was to replace the Black Templars (who now had their own section) with the Brazen Annihilators. In other words, they changed the ONE thing they were absolutely forced to. Other than that, it was simple font changes and on one page they swapped two rows around.

 

They couldn't even be bothered to notice that they completely left out the Ultramarines successors two-page section, because it was separated from the rest of the successor chapters in the 9th-ed codex.

 

At the time those chapter writeups were actually written, the paperback edition of Spear of the Emperor would have only been out for a few weeks. The Mentors' gene lineage was a plot point there with the revelation that they were Ultramarines successors - and thus having a closer connection to the Emperors' Spears - coming late in the book. Are we going to play some baby-brained game where you pretend it's unlikely that GW wouldn't want to spoil a plot point for a book that's just been released to a mass audience?

 

As for the Exorcists, their connection to the Imperial Fists hadn't even been published at the time that entry was written. More than likely it hadn't even been written since it wasn't until March 2021 that their Index article in White Dwarf appeared. The 9th-Ed codex would have been written a year or so before that.

 

I'm not asking you to stop. This is enjoyable.

 

Edited September 9 by Lord Nord in Gravis Armour

[Timberley]

The Exorcist - Grey Knight thing came from the short story 'Headhunted', last featured in 'Nexus + Other Stories'.  It's been around for a while.  I suspect that it's an error that can throw it either way.  If the WD author had checked their own fiction they'd realise a gene-lineage had been set for the Exorcists, but at the same time the Grey Knights are meant to be a Brotherhood apart from the brothers that make up the 'mainstream' Astartes chapters, into which the Exorcists fall.

 

To return to the main discussion, I think it's a question as to what considers to be the primary source for the information.  If we use the Exorcists as an example, they're claimed to be either Imperial Fists (White Dwarf/BL fiction), Grey Knights (BL fiction), or unknown (Codex).  Which source would take primacy?  If we go upwards chronologically, then it goes Headhunted - Codex - WD - Oaths of Damnation.  However, if we go with one of the GW maxims that 'everything is true, even the bits that contradict each other', then all of it is true and accurate, from a certain point of view.  The Exorcists could very well be a 'successor' to the Grey Knights, using the Imperial Fists lineage as a cover story, or they could be Imperial Fists using the Grey Knights name to explain why they're so good against Chaos without disclosing the whole Heresy of daemonic possession.

 

Bringing this back to the Custodes, you could easily argue that the Codexes prior to 10th used male terms to describe everyone and terminology that was consistent with all-male groups, they didn't explicitly rule out females, unlike the Astartes.  By turns, you could also argue that the Codexes concentrate on the Sisters of Silence within the Anathema Psykana, used all-female terminology to describe them, they don't explicitly rule out the Brothers of Silence within the Anathema Psykana.  Just because the books and such have focussed on the female members of the Anathema Psykana, who's to say there aren't Brothers out there doing the same thing?

 

Edit: The overall impact of female Custodes will, in my opinion, be incredibly minimal, as far as the overall fiction of the universe goes.  I can see why GW have done it, but I cynically suspect it'll have a flurry of media about it, then die off into the background, in favour of the new Faction/Setting of The Month.

Edited September 9 by Timberley

[Rob P]

 

At the time those chapter writeups were actually written, the paperback edition of Spear of the Emperor would have only been out for a few weeks. The Mentors' gene lineage was a plot point there with the revelation that they were Ultramarines successors - and thus having a closer connection to the Emperors' Spears - coming late in the book. Are we going to play some baby-brained game where you pretend it's unlikely that GW wouldn't want to spoil a plot point for a book that's just been released to a mass audience?

 

Putting aside your patronising tone, this is a massive reach. Your previous comments about lazy editing are much more plausible.

 

Limited 2018. Mass release 2019. 9th 2020.

 

I'm not aware of any effort to hide any niche plot points using a codex/rulebook but I am aware of many inconsistencies that have cropped up between publications, whether intentional or just lazy (both I guess).

[Brother Tyler]

Any subsequent posts that aren't about the female Adeptus Custodes (Adepta Custodes? ) will be removed.

 

Please take discussion of other (sub-)factions to the appropriate (sub-)forums or, in the case of the Sisters of Silence (who are also covered here in the Talons of the Emperor forum), to their own discussions.

[Roomsky]

 

Decided to take a quick peek to see how the discussion has gone.

 

And I admit that I am somewhat bemused at the direction of the conversation's trajectory and I would like to clarify if I just misunderstood Roomsky's idea with the thread.

 

No, you understood and gave us a great start. But on top of not wanting to be a backseat moderator, as the thread developed, the subject of Ladystodes seemed like a boil that genuinely needed lancing for a few folks and I think a lot of the respectful replies outside of the brief are interesting and valuable. 

 

That said, the detractors have admitted this is far from the worst change the fluff has ever seen, but remain detractors. Advocates have admitted that GW's rollout of this change was extremely flawed, but remain advocates. Neither of those things meet the brief so if we could put those arms of the discussion in the ground, I would be most grateful. (though the locking, unlocking, and comment clean-up of my thread happening over the course of a weekend I was out of town and not checking the forum was a uniquely funny thing to witness.)

 

The in-setting discussion will simply be less cathartic I fear. And yet, that's what we're in the Black Library section for, are we not? Personally, the discussion regarding why they dilute certain pieces of faction identity is very cool and I'm gonna read all of it that's yet to come. But I think my piece is said and, ultimately, I still don't like Custodes.

 

 

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

No, you understood and gave us a great start. But on top of not wanting to be a backseat moderator, as the thread developed, the subject of Ladystodes seemed like a boil that genuinely needed lancing for a few folks and I think a lot of the respectful replies outside of the brief are interesting and valuable. 

 

That said, the detractors have admitted this is far from the worst change the fluff has ever seen, but remain detractors. Advocates have admitted that GW's rollout of this change was extremely flawed, but remain advocates. Neither of those things meet the brief so if we could put those arms of the discussion in the ground, I would be most grateful. (though the locking, unlocking, and comment clean-up of my thread happening over the course of a weekend I was out of town and not checking the forum was a uniquely funny thing to witness.)

 

The in-setting discussion will simply be less cathartic I fear. And yet, that's what we're in the Black Library section for, are we not? Personally, the discussion regarding why they dilute certain pieces of faction identity is very cool and I'm gonna read all of it that's yet to come. But I think my piece is said and, ultimately, I still don't like Custodes.

 

 

Ty, glad to know I haven't gone insane (yet).

 

Wildly disappointing tbh though and I do mean that with respect for folks.

 

Everyone gets their joy from different things but I honestly see the conversation as kind of a sad waste. As is needing to waste the mod's time. 

 

I genuinely think that there is alot of valuable room to mine and debate the idea of femininity as relates to militarism, divinity, martial culture (which is, and I hate to disappoint a few usually-bickering crowds, not the same thing), definitions of beauty and so on. Because Custodes are a wonderful space to debate that.

 

Frankly anything the Emp does has marvelous room for digging, because to paraphrase McNeill and Abnett's writings, the greatest gift of the Emp is something both the characters haters and fans are kinda willfully ignorant of. "Its not his power its how he takes/uses/twists it" and "he finds ways to revive the old into the new".

 

Which is to say, the Emp is a character that combines utility, imagery and the little ticks and tocks of human thinking. From the primitive notion of empowerment through ritual cannibalism revived through genesorcery into a frankly devastating tactical and strategic tool to reviving the ancient idea of ward system and the concept of noble guards into merciless usurpation of political legitimacy through the Custodes themselves. The Emperor's most horrific gift isn't being a powerful psychic despot, its that he understands how society works at such an intrinsic level that he can fuse primal concepts with technology and sorcery in ways that are as clever and cunning as they are abominable. He is Loki wearing the pretense of Odin (and not fabulous, misunderstood, anti-hero Loki but 'oh my god I looked up actual Norse Myth and want to look for more poisonous snakes to drop on him' Loki).

 

I kind of attribute this to folks of most stripes suffering from the dual need of wanting to sanitize what they like and assume anything they dislike is inept, but it is the brilliance of the character. And to a certain degree, of 40k.

 

The Custodes are like living art pieces and masterworks of his PoV, which we know are both eclectic and pull from a hundred directions at once. If they decide to make female Custodians, there is so much more they can do with that.

 

And they go with such a dull and boring approach.

 

And, ironically because we are critiquing it, we cannot get past the very unimaginative impass of the fact of them and how we were told. We are not even capable of acknowledging that while having a more interesting chat. 

 

I do not mean to be unkind because I have tried to be kind and polite throughout these threads but having people just refusing to even engage in a more interesting conversation has been really disheartening. I mean I get that you might feel attacked and this is the worst thing ever or that this has somehow turned someones life around from horror movie-conditions into a land of golden rainbows but... come on fraters, surely as a collective we are deeper and more curious than this?

 

I do apologize but at this point I needed to say it.

Edited September 10 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

 

I do not mean to be unkind because I have tried to be kind and polite throughout these threads but having people just refusing to even engage in a more interesting conversation has been really disheartening. I mean I get that you might feel attacked and this is the worst thing ever or that this has somehow turned someones life from the start of a horror movie into a land of golden rainbows but... come on fraters, surely as a collective we are deeper and more curious than this?

 

I dont think you are being unkind, but I think you are reaching for something which does not exist, or at least has not even remotely been shown (or told) to exist in the way you are looking for it.

 

Valdor is the best representation of Custodes, but not the Valdor of Abnett, which is an abomination. The Valdor of Wraight, a being so above all but one other being, yet loyal. A being who carries his responsibilities with tired almost resignation.

 

Custodians should be (and I remember the back of their codex Limited Edition) ah yes I found it! This is it.

 

 

Thats it right there, thats Custodes. A breed apart, loyal to a fault, loyal at a cellular level, programmed to defend, to do their duty, but woefully disappointed in all they see.

 

Your angle about beauty, perfection, etc, I mean sure it could exist, but it has the same potential as my "The story of the HH is the Tragedy of the Emperor." which didnt come to be.

 

Its not about us being better than this, its about what GW is capable of doing within the bound's of what the setting is.

 

They are duty, and disappointed in all that the Imperium has become.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

I dont think you are being unkind, but I think you are reaching for something which does not exist, or at least has not even remotely been shown (or told) to exist in the way you are looking for it.

 

Valdor is the best representation of Custodes, but not the Valdor of Abnett, which is an abomination. The Valdor of Wraight, a being so above all but one other being, yet loyal. A being who carries his responsibilities with tired almost resignation.

 

Custodians should be (and I remember the back of their codex Limited Edition) ah yes I found it! This is it.

 

 

Thats it right there, thats Custodes. A breed apart, loyal to a fault, loyal at a cellular level, programmed to defend, to do their duty, but woefully disappointed in all they see.

 

Your angle about beauty, perfection, etc, I mean sure it could exist, but it has the same potential as my "The story of the HH is the Tragedy of the Emperor." which didnt come to be.

 

Its not about us being better than this, its about what GW is capable of doing within the bound's of what the setting is.

 

They are duty, and disappointed in all that the Imperium has become.

Maybe its a result of my seething dislike for the codexes beyond the purpose of a poor primer but I strongly disagree with you on Wraight's Valdor being all that is indicative.

 

Wraight Valdor is the bitterest creature in 30k.

 

But who is Wraight's window into 40k Custodes? 

 

Valerion.

 

One of the single kindest, most decent and least miserable characters we spend any time with in the setting.

 

And the one who spends the most time saying that people SHOULD be trying to do better.

 

I mean, some might hate that, but pretending it is a nonfactor or that a significant portion of the 40k Custodes books we have (2 of like 4) are from his PoV is not fair.

 

Amusingly his friend has a much more accurate view of things.

 

Valdor had everything and could only ever seethe and try to avoid complaining about his lot. Valerion and his ilk got the worst possible draw and the worst thing you can say about them is that they think they could be trying harder.

 

That doesnt take away from the grimdark, it adds to it that good (relatively speaking and in their context and honesty do exist and are trying. Because they will fail by the sheer nature of the setting and most of their efforts are trying to curtail the morons on their own side.

[Scribe]

 

Maybe its a result of my seething dislike for the codexes beyond the purpose of a poor primer but I strongly disagree with you on Wraight's Valdor being all that is indicative.

 

Wraight Valdor is the bitterest creature in 30k.

 

But who is Wraight's window into 40k Custodes? 

 

Valerion.

 

One of the single kindest, most decent and least miserable characters we spend any time with in the setting.

 

And the one who spends the most time saying that people SHOULD be trying to do better.

 

I mean, some might hate that, but pretending it is a nonfactor or that a significant portion of the 40k Custodes books we have (2 of like 4) are from his PoV is not fair.

 

Amusingly his friend has a much more accurate view of things.

 

Valdor had everything and could only ever seethe and try to avoid complaining about his lot. Valerion and his ilk got the worst possible draw and the worst thing you can say about them is that they think they could be trying harder.

 

That doesnt take away from the grimdark, it adds to it that good (relatively speaking and in their context and honesty do exist and are trying. Because they will fail by the sheer nature of the setting and most of their efforts are trying to curtail the morons on their own side.

 

I bounced off the Valerion series, it just did not hook me, but I can acknowledge that 'we should do better' is not inherently bad, because the setting gets to show exactly why its not happening, over and over. Wraight has never really failed me in maintaining the correct tone in his works.

 

I still dont see it as a great Custode characterization however, but I'm fully invested on the "I'll save you, because you are a creature of the Emperor, and all this is HIS works, but I am also HIS Judgement, and I find you all depressingly pathetic." I dont know. To me, they are too tightly bound. I mean look at the Vaults of Terra series, those Custodes are still all business, all the time, and also Wraight.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

I bounced off the Valerion series, it just did not hook me, but I can acknowledge that 'we should do better' is not inherently bad, because the setting gets to show exactly why its not happening, over and over. Wraight has never really failed me in maintaining the correct tone in his works.

 

I still dont see it as a great Custode characterization however, but I'm fully invested on the "I'll save you, because you are a creature of the Emperor, and all this is HIS works, but I am also HIS Judgement, and I find you all depressingly pathetic." I dont know. To me, they are too tightly bound. I mean look at the Vaults of Terra series, those Custodes are still all business, all the time, and also Wraight.

Funnily enough the character I was quoting as Valerion's friend is the Custodes in Vaults, same guy just among his own instead of around the... erm... 'people' in Vaults.

 

Also, if you want tighty bound and all business I still point you at Valerion. That guy 100% makes and submits his own time sheets and fills out leave request forms probably (much to the confusion of whichever superior gets them and wonders where he got the forms from). Probably also leaves the most meticulous reviews at every restaurant and hotel too. 

 

Man, I love Valerion, he is almost as much of a cinnamon roll as Aleya is such a tightly wound ball of anger that its molten from built-up friction.

 

Man, those are good books. Including the horrific scope of Imperial Politics and Guilliman's most morally grey actions in 40k that actually relate to his skillset.

 

And also the only time Trajann is ever allowed to be more than just a beatstick.

 

Really begging for a third installment where they introduce a female Custodian, and we get more of the rest of the fabulous cast. Knowing Wraight she'd even be allowed to be her own character beyond 'being a Custodian with vestigial secondary sexual characteristics indicative of an XX chromosome birth'.

[Scribe]

 

Really begging for a third installment where they introduce a female Custodian, and we get more of the rest of the fabulous cast. Knowing Wraight she'd even be allowed to be her own character beyond 'being a Custodian with vestigial secondary sexual characteristics indicative of an XX chromosome birth'.

 

I mean to bring it back to this.

 

What is the difference? Truly. This character would be basically non-human. If I hadn't sold my books I would maybe reread the buddy cop story again, but I just struggle with what an female vs male custodian even means.

 

This isn't a society, culture, or order. It's a military institution with a si guard focus wired into them at a cellular level.

 

Good change, bad.change, I don't even care. I just don't see depth, and I see a statuesque golden warrior as interchangeable. A few bits and bobs change nothing because none of them are human anyway.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

I mean to bring it back to this.

 

What is the difference? Truly. This character would be basically non-human. If I hadn't sold my books I would maybe reread the buddy cop story again, but I just struggle with what an female vs male custodian even means.

 

This isn't a society, culture, or order. It's a military institution with a si guard focus wired into them at a cellular level.

 

Good change, bad.change, I don't even care. I just don't see depth, and I see a statuesque golden warrior as interchangeable. A few bits and bobs change nothing because none of them are human anyway.

The difference is quite simple really.

 

Give.Me.Watchers.3.

 

And also because writing something interesting and new is always better, especially when you don't need to fall back on writing what you've already written before (even if you try and give it the new coat of a purely aesthetic paint, like atrophied secondary sexual characteristics for example). I will happily take a wild swing and risk a miss from someone like Wraight than the opportunity of a Female Custodes being yet another case of what we already have. Another grumpy pseudo-divine neuter in a galaxy of grumpy pseudo-divine neuters is boring, oh and one that can't grasp basic manners, because Custodes lost that too now that Diocletion is literally 'examplar'.

 

Give me the happiest most bouncy pseudo-divine neuter that is just loving her life while still being in the same hellpit of a setting, and I'll be intrigued. Because I haven't read that.

 

If they give me a Custodian that is all giggles, sunshine and rainbows while slaughtering daemons and poor hapless civilians alike with a smile on his or her face while gushing over some piece of art while everyone else is screaming, grumpy and miserable (like most books I've seen lately, not even necessarily BL) and actually just kind of likes her life.

 

You know what? Bring it. Bloody bring me that version of Watchers 3 and I will happily buy the LE, an accompanying model and bulk out my Custodian army.

 

And I will do it with a smile and my face.

 

Heck, give me a modern 40k female character that isn't mortally terrified of the colour pink and frills as if it will make all of their martial prowess meaningless to like them. No one is trashing the BA for their ab fixation (they do make tasteless jokes about the Third but I don't want to be offensive by bringing up how crass we as a community are about the treatment of the EC, as if their preferences being true somehow minimizes their skill and prowess as a Legion) but I would happily take a male character that likes pink and frills and isn't set up as the punchline to a joke that feels vaguely wrong. I do not mean to focus on any other faction or to imply anything with the comparisons, I am highlighting how much creative room there is to breath with the new ground offered by female Custodians.

 

Because contrasts are fun for a reader and god forbid we be allowed fun.

 

...I am really showing my cards as an EC and DE fan, aren't I? lol (and their latest books have not been fun which makes me unhappy but thats a different subject.

 

But I digress.

 

Give.Me.Watchers.3.Wraight.

Edited September 10 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

 

The difference is quite simple really.

 

Give.Me.Watchers.3.

 

You aren't selling me lol

[wecanhaveallthree]

As a thought experiment, try reading Watchers with Valerian as female. Consider what is lost when you remove that dimension of the relationship with Aleya, for example.

 

In the alternative, read Dark Imperium with angry mommy Colquan giving Matieu the chancla.

[StrangerOrders]

 

As a thought experiment, try reading Watchers with Valerian as female. Consider what is lost when you remove that dimension of the relationship with Aleya, for example.

 

In the alternative, read Dark Imperium with angry mommy Colquan giving Matieu the chancla.

I fail to see the downside.

 

The only meaningful difference to Valerion and Aleya is that the growing yuri fanbase in the community would guarantee Watchers 3 from how much they would publicize them (a win for me) and maybe Valerion getting less Gordon Ramsey model-wise (again, a win for me). Edit: Third point, more people would hear about Watchers and stop mischaracterizing two of my favorite factions as lacking lore (an even bigger win for me).

 

Especially with Colquan tbh. And, as someone from a culture where that reference is valid, I think Matieu's potential feelings about the Chancla both disturb and horrify me. 

 

But I have yet to meet someone that didn't find Matieu at least a bit disturbing, I can condone (by 40k standards) alot of Alpha Legion stuff but weaponizing an oedipal complex is a bit beyond the pale.

Edited September 10 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

 

Give me the happiest most bouncy pseudo-divine neuter that is just loving her life while still being in the same hellpit of a setting, and I'll be intrigued. Because I haven't read that.

 

If they give me a Custodian that is all giggles, sunshine and rainbows while slaughtering daemons and poor hapless civilians alike with a smile on his or her face while gushing over some piece of art while everyone else is screaming, grumpy and miserable (like most books I've seen lately, not even necessarily BL) and actually just kind of likes her life.

 

Yeah I'm afraid we are just at different positions in our life I think. I'm getting some happy go lucky Barbie vibes, and just... no thanks.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

Yeah I'm afraid we are just at different positions in our life I think. I'm getting some happy go lucky Barbie vibes, and just... no thanks.

I think so as well, but hey, folks can disagree and that's life. Long as we are civil and kind about it right? Appreciate that you were willing to chat about the subject! 

 

I think my perspective might be from just having finished The Culture series and coming back to 40k to be reminded of some of the limitations despite the setting really not having a good excuse for some of them (the lack of shown gleeful psychopaths on alot of factions now irking me greatly, even the DEldar don't seem like they are having sufficient fun alot of the time). But I am human, so bias is always a factor. 

 

Especially to see what feels like a lack of imagination around the new ground Female Custodes offer (or even that the first we are shown, the first Custodes we are shown in live action, really might as well have been a taller marine). 

 

But thats a critique of BL and the community to some degree and a discussion which I am getting to being at peace with not being appealing to folks. Which is probably my cue for this particular discussion. C'est la vie right?

Edited September 10 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

 

I think my perspective might be from just having finished The Culture series and coming back to 40k to be reminded of some of the limitations despite the setting really not having a good excuse for some of them (the lack of shown gleeful psychopaths on alot of factions now irking me greatly, even the DEldar don't seem like they are having sufficient fun alot of the time). But I am human, so bias is always a factor. 

 

The Bile and Dark Eldar Path series scratch that itch for you at all?

 

I mean I'm good with our chat here, I just think some of what you are alluding to is so far afield that it cannot co-exist with the setting as I understand it.

 

A Barbie Custode is about as bad as Hello Kitty Marines. I just cannot have it lol

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

The Bile and Dark Eldar Path series scratch that itch for you at all?

 

I mean I'm good with our chat here, I just think some of what you are alluding to is so far afield that it cannot co-exist with the setting as I understand it.

 

A Barbie Custode is about as bad as Hello Kitty Marines. I just cannot have it lol

Oh, I'm cool with chatting more! (Provided its allowed)

 

Eh, Fabius was Fabulous.

 

Path series was... erm, not.

 

And I think the thing is that I don't really see a problem with 'Barbie Custodian' because I don't see a character's PoV as indicative of the reality of the setting.

 

I mean, to a degree, I think this is especially true to an organization that has alot of the traits of true monasticism. 

 

Part of the point of being sequestered for monks in alot of faiths is not just detachments from the outside for its own sake, its detachment because reality is ultimately, to quote a certain ghost 'an irrelevancy'. Life is just not particularly significant. 

 

And my thinking kind of goes to that, if a Custodes is ultimately someone trying to figure out the Emp's orders and to some level or other relies on meditation and study to figure it out... why would they need to be as empty as a badly written 40k marine?

 

We know, from alot of sources actually, that the Emp had a sense of humour and did have some notion of things he enjoyed (his joke at the start of Valdor is probably one of my favorite moments with him, not least of which because of what he just finished doing to get his mitts on him). Why then can you argue that it is an impossibility for a Custodes to be neck deep in gore and kind of be chuckling at some joke she heard a while back? If she thought the Emperor found a topic interesting or important, even in some venal way, why wouldn't she find it interesting? The bodyguard thing was important but so was the Companion thing. 

 

Not to hammer that point but we are also told that each one is supposed to be unique, why can't that apply to their personalities? Maybe Ishtar Aphrodite is around for days he wants to remember useless goddesses and Eris Ame-No-Uzume was designed to just make everyone's day considerably worse for his own amusement (and probably to trip up assassination schemes left and right)?

 

And then the bigger point, why would she give an iota of a damn about the Imperium beyond how it effects the Emp? I mean some do, but they do not have that requirement. Their shame isn't the Imperium, at least in Valerion's case, its that the Emp is attached to giant medical device. 

 

I wouldn't find it at odds with the grimdark, to me it would be emblematic of the Grimdark that she didn't really care. Because its someone else's problem.

 

And, amusingly with Hello Kitty, if we want to discuss where the idea of cats walking on two feet came from in her culture, we can go over quite a bit of lovely nightmare fuel that might give someone a phobia of cats! 

Edited September 10 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

 

Eh, Fabius was Fabulous.

 

Path series was... erm, not.

 

And I think the thing is that I don't really see a problem with 'Barbie Custodian' because I don't see a character's PoV as indicative of the reality of the setting.

 

I mean, to a degree, I think this is especially true to an organization that has alot of the traits of true monasticism. 

 

Part of the point of being sequestered for monks in alot of faiths is not just detachments from the outside for its own sake, its detachment because reality is ultimately, to quote a certain ghost 'an irrelevancy'. Life is just not particularly significant. 

 

And my thinking kind of goes to that, if a Custodes is ultimately someone trying to figure out the Emp's orders and to some level or other relies on meditation and study to figure it out... why would they need to be as empty as badly written 40k marine?

 

We know, from alot of sources actually, that the Emp had a sense of humour and did have some notion of things he enjoyed (his joke at the start of Valdor is probably one of my favorite moments with him, not least of which because of what he just finished doing to get his mitts on him). Why then can you argue that it is an impossibility for a Custodes to be neck deep in gore and kind of be chuckling at some joke she heard a while back? If she thought the Emperor found a topic interesting or important, even in some venal way, why wouldn't she find it interesting?

 

And then the bigger point, why would she give an iota of a damn about the Imperium beyond how it effects the Emp? I mean some do, but they do not have that requirement. Their shame isn't the Imperium, at least in Valerion's case, its that the Emp is attached to giant medical device. 

 

I wouldn't find it at odds with the grimdark, to me it would be emblematic of the Grimdark that she didn't really care. Because its someone else's problem.

 

I guess where my mind goes is a few different directions here.

 

1. Some weird chuckling Custode knee deep among the dead, laughing at an in-joke? Sure. It begins to veer into Deadpool type territory, and it would SEEM to be somewhat mad, like a Chaos Marine. There is a typecasting, tropes, where Marines, Imperials, whatever, are meant to 'play it straight', but there are some scenarios where this is subverted. Space Wolves obviously, and I'm sure there are others. I have no issue with this.

 

2. Having some flamboyant pink loving Marine though...why? This is a setting that goes out of its way to stamp down on its loyalist followers. Its kind of the point of a TON of it. You are not important, worship the emperor, no you dont get to wear that, you wear your Imperial Issued Stone Grey Jumper. Right up until you are a Rogue Trader or someone of Importance Doing Important Things, at which point you reflect the decadence and corruption of your station.

 

3. This is still not addressing what having both sexes as Custodes is actually going to do or contribute.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

I guess where my mind goes is a few different directions here.

 

1. Some weird chuckling Custode knee deep among the dead, laughing at an in-joke? Sure. It begins to veer into Deadpool type territory, and it would SEEM to be somewhat mad, like a Chaos Marine. There is a typecasting, tropes, where Marines, Imperials, whatever, are meant to 'play it straight', but there are some scenarios where this is subverted. Space Wolves obviously, and I'm sure there are others. I have no issue with this.

 

2. Having some flamboyant pink loving Marine though...why? This is a setting that goes out of its way to stamp down on its loyalist followers. Its kind of the point of a TON of it. You are not important, worship the emperor, no you dont get to wear that, you wear your Imperial Issued Stone Grey Jumper. Right up until you are a Rogue Trader or someone of Importance Doing Important Things, at which point you reflect the decadence and corruption of your station.

 

3. This is still not addressing what having both sexes as Custodes is actually going to do or contribute.

1. Madness is relative, I don't think building the Imperium is particularly sane. Nor is describing your humanity being burned away by the divine fire you stole from four giga-Satans as 'Ah well, no such thing as a free lunch'. Two things the Emp did.

 

2. Because alot of Marines did/do value beauty? It was specifically one of the EC and BA's better features. Because it is uplifting and motivating, two things you kinda need to keep a system running, which was a factor in the early days of the Imperium and especially the Unification Wars. The eras that gave the Custodes the context they stubbornly cling to. I loved Watcher's idea that many Custodians were painters, philosophers, craftsmen, doctors and so on in their spare time specifically because they knew the Emp wanted more than soldiers.

 

3. Because it shows variety. Its not about 'what is a female Custodes' its about 'how much can a Custodes be?' Them all having the exact same appearance under that plate, the same personality, the same way of looking at the world, lacking humour or etiquette...

 

I'm going to level with you, the Emp does not tolerate a difference of end-goal very well, but he does value having different perspectives around. Otherwise he wouldn't have gathered such a wild coterie of Perpetuals for millennia, every agent we see from his Household wouldn't be so wildly different from the next. He wouldn't seem to know literally every myth to name his Custodes from, etc. Because a narcissist likes to think they are being agreed with.

 

More to the point, the Thunder Warriors wouldn't have been specialized, the legions and their Primarchs wouldn't be.

 

So, all this being the case, why would his specially designed conversation partners have personality of Rogal Dorn by default? 

 

Them being at least partially female was a glimmer. The first one being a lunatic willing to try and exterminatus-light Terra was potential. They could have gone in so many interesting directions. That potential was wrapped up in female Custodes.

 

But no.

 

You get a tall marine with Diocletion's personality. Yay? I do think that you are right in the vessel they went with adding nothing. She didn't detract anything but she definitely made me fear that female Custodes will be meaningless and that GW will just make more grumpy semi-divine neuters. Probably with the faces of people that enjoy sticking their heads in jars full of rabid chipmunks so that folks don't notice subpar facial sculpts.

 

I am speaking from a place of being a very diehard Custodes fan, specifically as they were presented in Watchers (SoS too but I don't think the subject is currently okay and I'd prefer to avoid trouble) and I do realize that colours my vision. I similarly recognize some have the polar opposite lens and I do respect the view, even if I vehemently disagree.

 

I know we already agreed that we are at an impasse, but its kind of fun to talk it out, even if just to get thoughts in order and tease out the ideas lol.

Edited September 10 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

1. I mean yes, the Emperor is/was insane by our standards. My "Tragedy of the Emperor" would have been 1000x better than the HH we got, but alas...

 

2. They value classical beauty. They are not (other than Chaos EC!) going to be running around in flamboyant feather boas. There is also a reason behind the appreciation of art. In the EC case its a reflection of their arrogance, pride, perfectionism. In the BA case, its a way to keep them grounded, to cling (in vain!) to their Humanity before its obliterated in a tide of the Black Rage/Red Thirst. In the Custode case, THEY are the art. They are a symbol. Their armour is a symbol, they are walking bio-engines AND pieces of art. They are not putting on Art Shows. They are not designing the next trend in Imperial Fashion, that is not what the Imperium is, thats not what any of this is lol.

 

3. They are not built to be advisors. Certainly not anymore. They are built (again they are no longer human) to be defenders, warriors, symbols. They are not his Companions, and even in Valdor that was less and less the case. By TEATD? He was keeping them around as puppets to channel his sun-killing energies. They are objects.

 

The Perpetuals stuff is a total non-starter to me.

 

The specialization of the Legions (Thunder or Astartes) is...I dont know the term for it, but its writing to justify the rules and perceptions that already existed. The Wolves are savage. The Scars are fast. The Night Lords are scary, and on and on. It's justification after the fact, and frankly some of the worst stuff FW did.

 

 

So, all this being the case, why would his specially designed conversation partners have personality of Rogal Dorn by default? 

 

Because we have no reason to believe that they were built to be companions. They are loyal, programmed to be, willing by design to do everything and anything to a pathological level to support the Emperor.

 

"What more can He take from you?"

"Nothing."

 

Thats the Custodes.

[StrangerOrders]

 

 

Because we have no reason to believe that they were built to be companions. They are loyal, programmed to be, willing by design to do everything and anything to a pathological level to support the Emperor.

 

"What more can He take from you?"

"Nothing."

 

Thats the Custodes.

Hate to tell you this man, but its literally the first thing Valerion says in Watchers 1.

 

Pretty sure Valdor's assistant says it in Magisterium. And Ra in MoM.

 

Although I do take issue with Diocletion writing a book called Master of Mankind. I refuse to believe that ambulatory brick can read, much less write (I say this from a position of absolutely no personal dislike).

 

Also, amusingly, I love the FW stuff and think it beats the daylights out of alot BL stuff (gotta review those for the book review thread one of these days), we seem to have a yin and yang thing going here lol.

 

1st Ed though, 2nd ed has been....................... Spotty. Very spotty. Moon after it picked a fight with the Oort Cloud (almost certainly spelled that wrong) spotty. And I'm tempted to throw 1st ed's book 9 in there too unless DA have rabbit-genes blended into their geneseed.... 

 

Wait! Guys! I figured out why the DA don't get along with SW!

 

Also, we have multiple books saying the Emp's lack of humanity has been a downward trajectory not his original or default state. A tyrannical doofus for sure, but he used to be a more human one. So not sure why it isn't tragic still.

 

To a certain degree, it is even more tragic if the Custodes do have that variety, because it would make them vestiges of who the Emp was before he turned into Mysterious Orbo the All-Knowing Roly-Poly of Doom.  

Edited September 10 by StrangerOrders

[Scribe]

I just think its propaganda. 10K companions? 10K dudes (and now dudettes) that he needs to talk to? I dont buy it.

 

Valdor, sure. The rest of them? Nah.

 

Much of the FW stuff I loved, but when they went "Oh and the Proto Night Lords are all recruited from the absolute pits of Terra, and are hideous nightmares BEFORE ever meeting their Primarch..." they totally lost the plot.

 

The Emperor was on a downward trajectory for sure, and gave up his humanity, but this is The Emperor. Hes not holding court with a bunch of people who he has programmed to be loyal to him. This is the Custodes going 'what is my purpose' and convincing themselves that they are import enough to be his companions. :D

 

There is still going to be some variety, Nature vs Nurture, it cannot be TOTALLY erased, but I just dont really see the point of the Custodes I guess. Outside of being HIS LOYAL GUARDS, what are they? I dont buy it that they are all 'facets of the Emperor' or something, so what?

 

I dont know, you do you, but I just dont think I like them really, outside of that very specific Valdor template.