The setting at present

[Mr Farson]

So I was flicking through the Nemesis crown booklet (wfb global campaign from 15 years ago) tonight and a thought hit me. I have no idea what the current story thread is in 40k currently beyond nids have arrived.

 

8th and the start of 9th had campaign ( I use the term lightly) supplements that kicked off octarius and the Pariah nexus.

 

I can't think of anything released so far for this edition that has meaningfully developed the setting and we are by my crude maths just over a third of the way through the edition.

 

One of the big enjoyment factors I had was playing in these developing storylines and areas, I think I've come to realise it all feels a bit empty without them.

 

 

[ThaneOfTas]

Well ,you've already mentioned the 4th Tyrannic war, which has consumed a massive chunk of Segmentum Obscurus Pacificus, massive numbers of imperial forces are trying to hold the line just shy of the boarder with Segmentum Solar but are being slowly pushed back.

 

Then there's The Pariah nexus, which has developed with a :cuss:load of Mechanicus assets being led by Cawl making their way in, trying to basically harvest the Blackstone used in the nexus for their own purposes. and then due to the machinations of Vashtor, all of the separated Mechanicus forces have started going a bit crazy and are breaking out all of their mad scientist , in response the Necrons are starting to break out some of their crazier equipment, and all of this unhinged tech usage and development managed to strengthen Vashtor enough for him to manifest alongside the Daemon world Wyrmwood within the Nexus.

Edited September 9 by ThaneOfTas

[Ahzek451]

 

 

 

One of the big enjoyment factors I had was playing in these developing storylines and areas, I think I've come to realise it all feels a bit empty without them.

 

 

Your not alone, I've (and to a certain extent, my gaming group) been struggling with GW lore in general around the time of Wrath of Magnus. Let me preface, my following comments have more to do with how I feel and doesn't necessarily reflect what I think is. This is just my perspective. I say it that way because I am personally still trying to nail down my overall thoughts. Having said that:

In short, I think GW has lost its edge when it comes to lore and lore cultivation. Anything put out in the last decade has been a slow decline and lacking a special "gravitas". I think this is due in part to a myriad of things, but a key point likely being due to new "talent" working for GW, a loss of old talent, and any changes in leadership and direction. If someone were to put on a white board as bullet points all the key events that's happened in the last decade, i.e. returning primarchs, pariah nexus, silent king, fall of Cadia and the ensuing warp rift across the universe, etc. I would be like "holy lore dump Batman this is exciting!" But execution-wise I don't think it translated well.....reasons being:

I am lucky enough to grow up in the part of the hobby that my friends and I would dream "what if the primarchs returned" and seriously doubted GW  would ever progress this plot point. And if they did, minds=blown. And yet what should have been the most exciting lore event(returning primarchs) has come off as mostly forgettable and lackluster. Magnus did a thing.......Mortarion is running amock? sure I suppose. Angron is back? oh yeah....kinda forgot about that guy. The lion has returned? .... I geuss? Guilliman, yeah hes back but its just ok. Half the time characters come off as sat-morning cheap cartoon villain's.

I am not saying that the material isn't there, more that the execution, cultivation, and custodianship is just lacking. The hype isn't strong, lore seems to be taking a back seat to everything else in the hobby. When things do come it feels fleeting. Codex books have cut back on lore too, that doesn't help. 

Everyone's mileage will vary, but I don't think you are alone. I think something has changed, and the how and the why I am still pinning down. I do think a part of it is myself possibly changing, but I know its not just that. More than one thing can happen at once. It could be me getting older AND GW declining. In short...I personally feel overall that GW's handling of lore has "cheapened" over time. And things that should be more exciting and handled with care is just....not. And its turning into something uninspiring and forgettable. 

 

Edited September 9 by Ahzek451

[Magos Takatus]

 

Then there's The Pariah nexus, which has developed with a :cuss:load of Mechanicus assets being led by Cawl making their way in, trying to basically harvest the Blackstone used in the nexus for their own purposes. and then due to the machinations of Vashtor, all of the separated Mechanicus forces have started going a bit crazy and are breaking out all of their mad scientist , in response the Necrons are starting to break out some of their crazier equipment, and all of this unhinged tech usage and development managed to strengthen Vashtor enough for him to manifest alongside the Daemon world Wyrmwood within the Nexus.

Raised as I was on a VHS cassette of the Space Battleship Yamato anime series, the idea of fleets of Necrons and Adeptus Mechanicus ships tearing into each other with horrifying Doomsday weapons has me salivating. It's a shame they don't seem to be doing much to capitalise on this imagery in their table-top games. I should be pushing some Ark Mechanicus around a table right now and removing clumps of escort ships off the table, right now I feel a lot of the coolest stuff in 40k is taking place off-table. I guess it's my fault for not having bought any Primarch models to follow what they are up to?

 

I must admit I'd has a disconnect with the lore in recent years, but I can't really blame GW for it. A few years back I had a pretty severe decline in mental health and with it my attention span for reading. I have been considering switching over to audiobooks while I paint but I haven't committed to that plan yet.

[Valkyrion]

For a futuristic wargame not enough people die.

In older lore it was easier to kill or simply 'uninvent' Yarrick, Tycho, that Salamanders chaplain, Solar Macharius, Doomrider, Nazdreg and the like because the story was new enough that no one had a vested interest in whether or not such and such survives.

 

To my way of thinking, each big character reveal should coincide with the death of something else that has at least an impact.

Magnus returns - Ragnar Blackmane dies. Guilliman returns and wipes out Hive Fleet Jormungandr, the Lion destroys the Red Corsairs, Abaddon virus bombs Catachan, Jain Zarr kills a famous Tau, Vect returns and kills a necron world, the Silent King returns and destroys a big forge world that isn't Mars and so on. 

Something big but also ripe for the chopping block, like nuking the old Ragnar Blackmane model to promote Magnus' return, or knowing that Krieg are going to overtake Catachan as the 2nd IG regiment, so it is sacrificed to advance the lore.

 

Blowing up Cadia and the return of Guilliman was a big deal - especially the blowing up Cadia part. Guilliman's return was, IMO of course, overshadowed by the Primaris Marines and the Shark Jumping that that entailed. 

If Guilliman had returned and simply commissioned brand new super duper armour but the marines inside were still 'firstborn' then I'd have been much more on board with new40k.

[Ahzek451]

 

 

Magnus returns - Ragnar Blackmane dies.

 

If Guilliman had returned and simply commissioned brand new super duper armour but the marines inside were still 'firstborn' then I'd have been much more on board with new40k.

Not to derail with the whole primaris issue, but I would have enjoyed this transition better as well. 

For Magnus, I would go so far to do an "eye for an eye". In wrath of Magnus, I think it didn't go far enough. The plan should still be to warp Sortiarius next to Prospero, but it would have been more...impactful if Fenris was destroyed akin to Prospero. Parts of the Fang would be recovered and the Space Wolves would turn themselves into a Fleet-based (embrace the viking aspect) chapter using parts of the Fang grafted to Key ships. This would actually put the Space wolves on the back foot for once and make the return of Russ more impactful.  

Edited September 9 by Ahzek451

[phandaal]

 

Blowing up Cadia and the return of Guilliman was a big deal - especially the blowing up Cadia part.

 

To me this is the most memorable and interesting event in recent 40k. I think after that, things got a little too "big."

 

Warp storms in the Eye and the Maelstrom turned into warp storms cutting across the entire galaxy. Daemon attacks claiming individual worlds turned into a Daemon World (Wormwood) with the power to tunnel into the Webway and attack the entire galaxy or something. And so on.

 

Not all of the modern lore falls into that bucket though, like the conflicts within the Nachmund Gauntlet (not the "cutting off the entire galaxy" meta-plot), or the Charadon warzone. We could do with more of that smaller-scale focus, in my opinion, to give more hooks for people to connect with the universe.

[Karhedron]

I guess the thing to remember about Primarchs returning is just how big the setting is. A Primarch returning is a big deal from a lore point of a view and probably a big deal for anyone in their vicinity. But the Imperium consists of a million worlds and there are far more beyond that. Even a Primarch can only be in one place at a time which constrains the scope of their actions. Guilliman's impact has been huge, he has introduced a new generation of Astartes and launched the biggest crusade since the Horus Heresy. He has also knocked several heads together (both literally and metaphorically) among the High Lords to try and reduce infighting and factionalism that frequently paralyses the Imperium. This has been covered in lots of books like the Dark Imperium trilogy and the Watchers of the Throne series (I haven't really gotten into the Dawn of Fire series).

 

Guilliman has been back for over 7 years now so there has been a decent amount of fiction covering the impact of his return. The Lion has only been back for just over a year and has only got one novel so far plus a smattering of stuff in the Arks of Omen book. Arguably he has had a much smaller impact on the setting and it is mostly limited to the Unforgiven. Unlike Guilliman, he hasn't headed for a centre of power and launched any galaxy-wide actions. That is not to say that he won't just that we don't know what will happen yet. Plague War (the second DI book) was not published until 2019 so there is time before we get a better picture of what the Lion has been up to.

[lansalt]

I think that by now it should be clear that GW has set up the Indomitus Crusade as a repeat of what the 13th Black Crusade was before Gathering Storm. A never ending period of 40k history that will never "end", but it's full of dramatic events teasing a final battle that will never happen unless GW needs the money again. A new status quo and canvas for all sorts of stories and battles.

 

That's why we get new developments to keep things interesting but they seem to be self contained and have little to no impact. Even the return of the Lion has been a nothingburger. And that's when GW hasn't apparently forgot about it (the Ynnari, the return od the SW 13th company...)

 

The more things change the more they stay the same, etc

[Ahzek451]

 

 

 

That's why we get new developments to keep things interesting but they seem to be self contained and have little to no impact. Even the return of the Lion has been a nothingburger. And that's when GW hasn't apparently forgot about it (the Ynnari, the return od the SW 13th company...)

 

The more things change the more they stay the same, etc

Good point, I totally forgot about the Ynnari. Something that needed more limelight from inception up to now. 

Edited September 9 by Ahzek451

[LSM]

Whatever story a returned Jonson kicks up should have been the lion's share of the lore in the Dark Angels codex, IMO.

 

Black Library strikes me as supplementary material - a good place for deep dives, and such. But a faction's codex should be the main place where the (zoomed out) story of that faction's characters is told. (And then a novel can follow, to explore those broad strokes.)

 

//

 

I think... the Horus Heresy game was (seemingly) born out of the lore - how the Primarchs and the Legions interact with each other was the foundation, and so in that setting characters get a lot of attention, and are always melodramatically doing and conflicting (or they're nerdily fleshing out minutia of existing references, while spawning more little bits of minutia for the future). So new lore firms up after a bit and drives more new things - the Fulgrim Transfigured model, for example, is perfection to anyone who has read all the 'Heresy novels; poured over the existing artwork, and book descriptions. It's what we know, the culmination of a decade of works, realised and expanded upon, and offering further expansion.

 

Whereas 40k... it feels like the studio were very excited to bring out the model and the rules and the story possibilities of Lion El'Jonson, risen once more, but... didn't actually have a specific story in mind to tell. Someone would... find something for him to do... which will definitely be cool... once we figure it out...

 

When Fulgrim Transfigured released, some people were confused about why they'd release a giant resin Fulgrim when 40k seems like it's going to get a giant plastic Fulgrim within a few years time. But I don't see a problem, because while Fulgrim Transfigured's sculpting was driven by existing material, I really think 40k's Fulgrim will be vastly new. It's creators will probably have never read any of the existing material - they'll be given a rough brief and told to go nuts. And he'll be unleashed on the galaxy to do... well, that's someone else's problem. 

 

Sometimes that someone else nails it, and creates an exciting narrative full of interesting side characters, interactions, and events.

 

Sometimes it's a damp squib.

 

//

 

Jonson's returned, he's a knight in Nihilus, crusading against the creatures of Chaos. Cool. He has a distain for what the Imperium seems to have become. Cool. He bypasses Imperial authority... to what ramifications? What do other Imperial commanders (not just Guilliman) think about the disruption of their authority when they're so hard pressed? How many would-be loyalists turn to Chaos to keep their power? He's disrupted ten thousand years of his Chapter's foremost purpose and forgiven a number of the Fallen... to what ramifications? An extremist nutcase like Asmodai must be pretty torn up about his life's work on one hand, and his primarch on the other. He must be going through some stuff - and what if everyone else finds out? WHAT WILL THEY THINK OF US? What about that whole Forestwalk stuff? Seems suspicious to Inquisitor Whomever... is Jonson truly a hero of legend returned, or is he our doom - a seed of corruption and blasphemy?

 

And yeah, it's early days... but you don't have to wait. You can skip straight to the good stuff, if you have good stuff to tell.

[ZeroWolf]

 

Whatever story a returned Jonson kicks up should have been the lion's share of the lore in the Dark Angels codex, IMO.

 

Black Library strikes me as supplementary material - a good place for deep dives, and such. But a faction's codex should be the main place where the (zoomed out) story of that faction's characters is told. (And then a novel can follow, to explore those broad strokes.)

 

//

 

I think... the Horus Heresy game was (seemingly) born out of the lore - how the Primarchs and the Legions interact with each other was the foundation, and so in that setting characters get a lot of attention, and are always melodramatically doing and conflicting (or they're nerdily fleshing out minutia of existing references, while spawning more little bits of minutia for the future). So new lore firms up after a bit and drives more new things - the Fulgrim Transfigured model, for example, is perfection to anyone who has read all the 'Heresy novels; poured over the existing artwork, and book descriptions. It's what we know, the culmination of a decade of works, realised and expanded upon, and offering further expansion.

 

Whereas 40k... it feels like the studio were very excited to bring out the model and the rules and the story possibilities of Lion El'Jonson, risen once more, but... didn't actually have a specific story in mind to tell. Someone would... find something for him to do... which will definitely be cool... once we figure it out...

 

When Fulgrim Transfigured released, some people were confused about why they'd release a giant resin Fulgrim when 40k seems like it's going to get a giant plastic Fulgrim within a few years time. But I don't see a problem, because while Fulgrim Transfigured's sculpting was driven by existing material, I really think 40k's Fulgrim will be vastly new. It's creators will probably have never read any of the existing material - they'll be given a rough brief and told to go nuts. And he'll be unleashed on the galaxy to do... well, that's someone else's problem. 

 

Sometimes that someone else nails it, and creates an exciting narrative full of interesting side characters, interactions, and events.

 

Sometimes it's a damp squib.

 

//

 

Jonson's returned, he's a knight in Nihilus, crusading against the creatures of Chaos. Cool. He has a distain for what the Imperium seems to have become. Cool. He bypasses Imperial authority... to what ramifications? What do other Imperial commanders (not just Guilliman) think about the disruption of their authority when they're so hard pressed? How many would-be loyalists turn to Chaos to keep their power? He's disrupted ten thousand years of his Chapter's foremost purpose and forgiven a number of the Fallen... to what ramifications? An extremist nutcase like Asmodai must be pretty torn up about his life's work on one hand, and his primarch on the other. He must be going through some stuff - and what if everyone else finds out? WHAT WILL THEY THINK OF US? What about that whole Forestwalk stuff? Seems suspicious to Inquisitor Whomever... is Jonson truly a hero of legend returned, or is he our doom - a seed of corruption and blasphemy?

 

And yeah, it's early days... but you don't have to wait. You can skip straight to the good stuff, if you have good stuff to tell.

Worth noting that Horus Hersey came full circle as it's lore was invented to sell the original Adeptus Titanicus back in the late 80s ("we need a reason as to why these identical titan models are fighting each other" "civil war?" "Brilliant, civil war it is!"

 

But yeah, I think it's been known for a while that the artists create the models than throw them at the others, and say, make this work, rules and story writers equally (after the higher ups Greenlight them for production, otherwise they sit on a shelf for six years like the Desolators did).

[lansalt]

 

Worth noting that Horus Hersey came full circle as it's lore was invented to sell the original Adeptus Titanicus back in the late 80s

Yes, but it was pretty much forgotten for more than a decade until it was resurrected with the Sabertooth card game and the Visions of Heresy project. Then it took almost another decade before the FW's HH game and minis were released for it in 2012.  

[Karhedron]

 

Black Library strikes me as supplementary material - a good place for deep dives, and such. But a faction's codex should be the main place where the (zoomed out) story of that faction's characters is told. (And then a novel can follow, to explore those broad strokes.)

 

While I tend to feel the same way, that has not been the case for several editions. To take the Blood Angels for example, the modern lore concerning the state of the Chapter and their successors is covered in the novels "Dante", "Devastation of Baal" and "Darkness in the Blood". The BA Codex barely touches on any of this. The codices are very lore-lite these and only cover enough to give a flavour of the faction before diving into rules and stuff. The bulk of the lore is covered in the BL novels.

[Beta galactosidase]

 

Yes, but it was pretty much forgotten for more than a decade

 

The entirety of the marine codexes in 1996 were built around the heresy.  The array of SW, Ultras, traitor legions, and Angels all had the special status of first founding created by the Adeptus Titanicus game.  The codexes start with historues of the Heresy. The special units in the Codex: Angels of Death chapters have Heresy origin stories and all the units in Codex CSM flipped in tbe Heresy. If the AT heresy had been forgotten, then the Ultramarine chapter in Codex:Ultras would have been third founding. One of the codexes would have been Space Sharks.  The Heresy has been at the front of the Imperium since Jervis invented it.

 

The function of having a decentralized 1000 chapters is that there'd always be another chapter around the corner. When the adventures of marines in one chapter get published,  that's a model for players to copy.  That's not true in respect to the heresy and the concept of legions, because you can't copy legions, or primarchs or the heresy, those were  one-time events.

 

You can see there was some attempt to preserve this role in the  Black Legion, when they had only a single battle barge roaming the Eye.  This made them one of the many factions you could run into, like a Bestiary entry.

[Valkyrion]

 

Yes, but it was pretty much forgotten for more than a decade until it was resurrected with the Sabertooth card game and the Visions of Heresy project. Then it took almost another decade before the FW's HH game and minis were released for it in 2012.  

 

I came to the hobby in the early 90's, long before I even knew what Visions of Heresy was (and I still don't know what Sabertooth card game is?), and my intro to the Horus Heresy was Codex Ultramarines, Codex Chaos, Codex Angels of Death. 

 

[Beta galactosidase]

Those first high-gloss illustrations of golden  bodyguards or blue and white world eaters were card art for a collectible card game in 2004. That's how all the concept art and background was commercially justified, initially.  The margins on cards were good at the time, AFAIK, so they could commission much more art for a gard game than an art book like the Visions series.

 

And it was played heavily in some places. If you remember, there were also many star trek and star wars et al collectible card games at the time, beyond pokemon and magic.

 

Sabretooth was an imprint of GW, similar to Black Library as a publisher, or something called Black Industries that GW set up to sell tshirts and keychains. I think there might be some connection with Fantasy Flight for Sabretooth

 

 

[calgar101]

Up until recently I always had a good knowledge of what was happening in the lore. After the return of Guilliman, I've lost track of everything. I think the quality of lore writing has gone down, perhaps it's not the writers fault but the direction they are being pushed in? I feel everything is dialed to 11 now and all possible Imperium ending threats are happening almost all at once? 

 

4th Tyrannic war? Did it end yet or is it still on going? Have Abaddon and Vashtor done whatever to bring the Imperium to its knees?

 

Personally I'd have done things differently (maybe this is the case, as I said I'm not up to date).

Imperium Sanctus, everything is great really,  Guilliman has very much stabilised it and any emerging threats are dealt with by the re organised and better prepared Imperial forces. Possibly the awakening Necrons as the main threat. 

 

Imperium Nihilus is where GW could have everything dialed up to 11 going off, all the crazy stuff going on and the Imperium is really on the back foot and everything is looking to be lost. That way you please all players of each faction. Have Chaos wanting to do their rituals and turn it into one huge warp empire, the Lion and Dante trying to lead a Crusade to stop Abaddon et al and reunite the two Imperium halves. 

 

Call can be doing his thing with blackstone and Necron tech to shut down the Rift. Orks are as usual fighting and Ghazghul's 'Green Kroosade' is becoming a huge thorn for all sides.

The Tyranids could be looming over the Imperium Nihilus, threatening all factions there; whilst everyone else is busy they are consuming systems, and only the Silent King is aware of their greater threat and doing anything to stop them.

 

In my opinion now it's all just a tad too much. My gaming group have gone off 10th and we are going back to 3rd/4th and with that we've reset the timeline too and are using our own head cannon.

 

The 13th Black Crusde is kicking off, Cadia stands and Abaddon probably won't destroy it (we reason he'd want a forward base), if he's successful. Guilliman will return but no Eldar involvement, Cawl was instructed for Primaris project as some of that makes sense. But yesh, bit less impending doom everywhere. 

 

Edit. I'm also really annoyed that some of the new lore advances have invalidated some table top units... no Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Land speeders or bike and attack bikes. 

 

Edited September 9 by calgar101
Add comments

[Noserenda]

I suspect its more a problem of follow through with 40k these days, there is some great stories coming out but then they go nowhere, fail to come up anywhere else and generally stagnate and disillusion the fans who are in to that sort of thing. They arent all bangers, a lot of the white dwarf stuff the last couple of years has been godawful for example but there are diamonds out there. 

I think a lot of that is the change in design philosophy in the design studio. Previously they designed the setting of Warhammer 40k and added rules for cool stuff that came out of that, though as mentioned above, always model driven, it also lead to things like the extra supplemental lists in 3-5th which started with, "What would Black templars/kroot/mutants look like as an army" and developed from there. 

Now i think (And ive only hints here so i may be wrong entirely) they are primarily designing the game of warhammer 40k. Looking to improve the balance, change up the meta and, whilst still model driven, introduce cool rules interactions first, with the background there to support the releases, but then move on quickly to the next game release. So you have things like the Lion with a build up and then just ditched, or the absolute zero fluff for the Rogal dorn past "big tank is big" because it would sell itself...

But its been going on years! Since Gathering storm started build for the great rift et al they have been dropping threads left and right, not like cool seeds for future stories, like, the first 3 chapters of a story and then nothing. Possibly forever.

Meanwhile you have potentially exciting campaign stories, but they are one "season" and done, possibly some novels if you are lucky. Compare that to the onslaughts of the Eye of Terror or Armageddon campaigns and its nothing. But they dont want that, they just want something to cover this season and then off to the next one.

But yeah, i much prefer my toy soldier marketing material Story first, then rules please :D At least most of the models are bangers. Mostly... *shudders*  

[Noserenda]

Also, its partially the heresy's fault! People sang the praises of Bronze age warlords with sci fi legions in spaaaace dynastic drama so hard the 40k setting shifted that way too, literally in the case of the Primarchs returning. Whilst it was really the direction and authors that was doing the job, and they seem to have driven most of them away and wound down Black library in general, combined with the no follow through as i ranted above :P boooooo

[ThePenitentOne]

 

Your not alone, I've (and to a certain extent, my gaming group) been struggling with GW lore in general around the time of Wrath of Magnus. Let me preface, my following comments have more to do with how I feel and doesn't necessarily reflect what I think is. This is just my perspective. I say it that way because I am personally still trying to nail down my overall thoughts. Having said that:

In short, I think GW has lost its edge when it comes to lore and lore cultivation. Anything put out in the last decade has been a slow decline and lacking a special "gravitas". I think this is due in part to a myriad of things, but a key point likely being due to new "talent" working for GW, a loss of old talent, and any changes in leadership and direction. If someone were to put on a white board as bullet points all the key events that's happened in the last decade, i.e. returning primarchs, pariah nexus, silent king, fall of Cadia and the ensuing warp rift across the universe, etc. I would be like "holy lore dump Batman this is exciting!" But execution-wise I don't think it translated well.....reasons being:

I am lucky enough to grow up in the part of the hobby that my friends and I would dream "what if the primarchs returned" and seriously doubted GW  would ever progress this plot point. And if they did, minds=blown. And yet what should have been the most exciting lore event(returning primarchs) has come off as mostly forgettable and lackluster. Magnus did a thing.......Mortarion is running amock? sure I suppose. Angron is back? oh yeah....kinda forgot about that guy. The lion has returned? .... I geuss? Guilliman, yeah hes back but its just ok. Half the time characters come off as sat-morning cheap cartoon villain's.

I am not saying that the material isn't there, more that the execution, cultivation, and custodianship is just lacking. The hype isn't strong, lore seems to be taking a back seat to everything else in the hobby. When things do come it feels fleeting. Codex books have cut back on lore too, that doesn't help. 

Everyone's mileage will vary, but I don't think you are alone. I think something has changed, and the how and the why I am still pinning down. I do think a part of it is myself possibly changing, but I know its not just that. More than one thing can happen at once. It could be me getting older AND GW declining. In short...I personally feel overall that GW's handling of lore has "cheapened" over time. And things that should be more exciting and handled with care is just....not. And its turning into something uninspiring and forgettable. 

 

 

So, also my own opinion here. 

 

GW makes the thing happen: The Lion is Back!

 

But now it's up to YOU to figure out how you deal with that on the table, not them. YOU can make a big deal out of it it- YOU can decide whether or not he gets along with Gulliman or not. YOU can decide that he will rally the Angels to track down Cypher and the Fallen. GW's job is to provide the model, the rules and enough context that those who choose not to engage will have some narrative thread to work with: they don't play DA, so they aren't going to build a Rock themed table, convert a small army of Fallen to accompany Cypher, and engage in a campaign about it... So they need the broad stroke loose narrative that GW provides. YOU who want more than that can have the Rock themed table and the 6 month campaign that brings the Lion home, because if GW did do it for you, you probably wouldn't like the way they chose to do it.

 

I tell people all the time the reason I didn't hate Primaris as much as some people is that I love the Torchbearer Crusade rules from 9th. Believe me, whether you think Primaris belong in the lore will change if you play missions with your oldmarines are out numbered by chaos until your units are beaten down with battlescars, then you Build a Torchbearer fleet with Mechanicus and Custodes escorting your Primaris to the beaten down oldmarines by collecting clues to find them, then once introduced, playing through the awkward phase where the Primaris learn the culture of their battle brothers, and then finally, they become full members of the host chapter and bring woe to the enemies of the Emprah!

 

But if instead, you're just like "Oh, okay, lets crunch the numbers to see how many units of the new shiny need to be in the army," then yeah... Implementation is gonna suck.

 

The Sector Control/ Investigation/ Threat rules in the Agents dex are a good example. Yes, the Coteaz model is not what we had hoped. Yes, the dex isn't what it could have been- especially if you're in an inflexible environment that won't let you use Legends to round out the Deathwatch force that you can field in an Ordo Xenos army. And you can complain about all of those things, and those complaints ARE valid. But you can also actually put together a small force, roll up some threats and try to wrestle control of whichever sector you choose from whichever enemy you choose to engage with. Dropping Draxus and DW with allied Sisters or Templars is the bomb for Pariah Nexus, and those threat rules WILL help you tell the story of how Draxus and her allied forces deal with the Nexus.

 

My Inquisition will be trying to deal with a Pacificus-based GSC, but the Inquisition won't even be called in until one of the forces planetside (Sisters or Guard) start to figure out that what is happening on their world might be more than just the typical citizen discontent. And the story might allow the Cult to become big enough to attract Nids, or maybe the Sisters will activate the Inquisition in time and the Nids won't come. But that ain't up to GW, it's up to me and my crew, cuz if GW did it for us, there'd be a thing or two that we didn't like about the way they did it.

[Felix Antipodes]

There are several points raised here that resonate with me.  

The first is that there has been a massive decline in the content and quality of the various codex books.  They have devolved into nothing more than glorified and expensive pamphlets, losing most of the flavour of the faction covered.

The second, as @Noserenda covered above, is the shift by GW to a “season” type format where “stuff happens” and then is never mentioned again once the season ends.  Worse, they nearly always end on a cliffhanger of sorts.  It’s like a tv show that gets cancelled after one season with dangling plot lines that are never resolved.

In the past, a lot of these dangling plot lines would be picked up on and expanded/resolved by BL or FW.  With the seeming downplay of the first and the transformation of the latter into Specialist Games, this is no longer the case.  In my (admittedly small) circle there is a definite falling off of interest in the background, leading to less interest in playing the game itself.

[Ahzek451]

 

 

So, also my own opinion here. 

 

GW makes the thing happen: The Lion is Back!

 

But now it's up to YOU to figure out how you deal with that on the table, not them. YOU can make a big deal out of it it- YOU can decide whether or not he gets along with Gulliman or not. YOU can decide that he will rally the Angels to track down Cypher and the Fallen. GW's job is to provide the model, the rules and enough context that those who choose not to engage will have some narrative thread to work with: they don't play DA, so they aren't going to build a Rock themed table, convert a small army of Fallen to accompany Cypher, and engage in a campaign about it... So they need the broad stroke loose narrative that GW provides. YOU who want more than that can have the Rock themed table and the 6 month campaign that brings the Lion home, because if GW did do it for you, you probably wouldn't like the way they chose to do it.

 

I tell people all the time the reason I didn't hate Primaris as much as some people is that I love the Torchbearer Crusade rules from 9th. Believe me, whether you think Primaris belong in the lore will change if you play missions with your oldmarines are out numbered by chaos until your units are beaten down with battlescars, then you Build a Torchbearer fleet with Mechanicus and Custodes escorting your Primaris to the beaten down oldmarines by collecting clues to find them, then once introduced, playing through the awkward phase where the Primaris learn the culture of their battle brothers, and then finally, they become full members of the host chapter and bring woe to the enemies of the Emprah!

 

But if instead, you're just like "Oh, okay, lets crunch the numbers to see how many units of the new shiny need to be in the army," then yeah... Implementation is gonna suck.

 

The Sector Control/ Investigation/ Threat rules in the Agents dex are a good example. Yes, the Coteaz model is not what we had hoped. Yes, the dex isn't what it could have been- especially if you're in an inflexible environment that won't let you use Legends to round out the Deathwatch force that you can field in an Ordo Xenos army. And you can complain about all of those things, and those complaints ARE valid. But you can also actually put together a small force, roll up some threats and try to wrestle control of whichever sector you choose from whichever enemy you choose to engage with. Dropping Draxus and DW with allied Sisters or Templars is the bomb for Pariah Nexus, and those threat rules WILL help you tell the story of how Draxus and her allied forces deal with the Nexus.

 

My Inquisition will be trying to deal with a Pacificus-based GSC, but the Inquisition won't even be called in until one of the forces planetside (Sisters or Guard) start to figure out that what is happening on their world might be more than just the typical citizen discontent. And the story might allow the Cult to become big enough to attract Nids, or maybe the Sisters will activate the Inquisition in time and the Nids won't come. But that ain't up to GW, it's up to me and my crew, cuz if GW did it for us, there'd be a thing or two that we didn't like about the way they did it.

I appreciate what you are trying to go for here. A players ability to narrate their own battle and whip something up has always been a part of the hobby. But I am not going to  write GW's main story beats for them. I came to 40k because of the lore, and I write the small narrative lore beats as desired for my own headcannon. And if its only now that I have to write the lore to that level, that does indeed imply that GW has dropped the ball to some extent. 

I am more referencing a noticeable shift in how GW presents there lore currently. A shift from something properly cultivated and cared for to something akin to feeling corporatized, mass-produced, cheapened, and processed.  Codex books with a sizable reduction in lore, missing entire sections with pages dedicated to each model/unit. Man I miss those. 

Its just noticeable, for good or ill. 

[ThePenitentOne]

Snipped

 

And I do see your point too- I particularly agree with the lack of lore in modern dexes.  You get lore on new units for the edition usually- Morven got a huge write up in 9th and 10th as did Junith... But not so much the generic units.

 

On a side note: the Sisters dex, in the lore, references Battle Conclaves... Which gives me hope for a Battle Conclave KT which reintroduces Crusaders and DCA's to both Sisters and Hereticus. 

 

Edited September 10 by ThePenitentOne

[Timberley]

I think @Noserenda brings up a lot of good points in this discussion, and is definitely the feeling I get too. In the past, GW created a setting for us to have battles in. There might be a story of some kind that went with each edition change, but it was more localised, less chance of 'your guys' getting caught up in it (unless you wanted to).

 

In the modern era it's very much a game with seasons, battle passes and new versions/sequels every few years (consume product then get excited to consume next product).  Not only that, everything has to be BIGGER, more explosions, stuff happening constantly in case you get bored! Your guys will be involved because it's a GALAXY-WIDE problem. The previous problem? Well, that got resolved, or is still ongoing, but don't worry about it, there's a new problem for you to worry about!

 

The 13th Black Crusade (as was) killed off Eldrad, and that's where the story stopped. When you played games, they spanned pretty much the entire millennium, as technology was stagnant enough that a weapon/vehicle/unit appearing in the 13th Black Crusade was probably present at the Gothic War (aka the 12th). Now, you can't do that, unless you chin off your Primaris Marines and a lot of other stuff across the setting. 

 

Personally, I find it difficult to keep up with it all, or care. Hence why I've gone back to Necromunda, but even that's starting to encounter this sort of thing. I've noticed an uptick in people getting into the setting who don't seem to understand that it's not a competitive game and is designed to be much more like D&D.