The setting at present

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

 

In the modern era it's very much a game with seasons, battle passes and new versions/sequels every few years (consume product then get excited to consume next product).  Not only that, everything has to be BIGGER, more explosions, stuff happening constantly in case you get bored! Your guys will be involved because it's a GALAXY-WIDE problem. The previous problem? Well, that got resolved, or is still ongoing, but don't worry about it, there's a new problem for you to worry about!

 

 

Not sure I agree entirely. I see it, but it feels off to me, because it is JUST as possible as it ever was for me to invent a solar system, drop it into whatever sector I want and say that it's so isolated that it isn't affected by the major war in that sector.

 

The campaign books are now exclusively Crusade books. Sure there are mission decks that also say they are for the Tyrranic War season or the Pariah Nexus season... But is anything in those decks specifically connected to the conflict playing out in those sectors? Honest question- as a Crusader, I don't use them, so I don't know. 

[Timberley]

 

 

Not sure I agree entirely. I see it, but it feels off to me, because it is JUST as possible as it ever was for me to invent a solar system, drop it into whatever sector I want and say that it's so isolated that it isn't affected by the major war in that sector.

 

The campaign books are now exclusively Crusade books. Sure there are mission decks that also say they are for the Tyrranic War season or the Pariah Nexus season... But is anything in those decks specifically connected to the conflict playing out in those sectors? Honest question- as a Crusader, I don't use them, so I don't know. 

I was being somewhat hyperbolic, but it's a definite perception I have. I wonder if it's tied to the idea of 'Legends' (removing miniatures from an army's roster?! Preposterous idea!) and a greater competitive focus, which is a bit of a bizarre concept for me as an older player who bought into 40K because of the setting, and wanted to create cool stories of 'my guys' getting up to shenanigans. I think the latter point is why I've moved back to Necromunda in recent times. 

 

I have my own subsector (see the IA in my signature for the start of it all) and so try and avoid most of it. 

 

As to your question; nothing within the decks states that they're tied to that war, so they could be used for any skirmish you've got going on. A good thing, if you're a narrative player. 

[Mr Farson]

Following on from this

 

The other thing I think I've grown to dislike is the majority of the campaign supplement related stuff rules wise has been narrative content only.

 

Previous editions rules would nearly always be treated as any other standard rule set but now it's mostly aimed at Crusade players ( Which to be fair I highly enjoy and prefer to regular 40k)

 

It feels a bit disheartening building a face around this content for it to then be shelved for standard play within three years 

[Karhedron]

 

Previous editions rules would nearly always be treated as any other standard rule set but now it's mostly aimed at Crusade players ( Which to be fair I highly enjoy and prefer to regular 40k)

 

It was causing problems in that players needed too many books for all the units and stratagems. There were a lot of complaints that if you wanted to run Veteran Intercessors and a bunch of the new Strats, you had to buy the appropriate books alongside the codex. GW backpedalled and decided to try and keep the rules in one place.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

Codexs have gone downhill. Also it feels like the lore, while always used to sell models, is now used only to sell models. It doesn't feel like there is any true love for it. Or if there is its buried under commercial goals. 

 

I also feel like the lore has become like marvel films. And the marvel films are absolute trash. 

[Karhedron]

 

Codexs have gone downhill.

 

Codices now prioritise the rules with the lore moving to BL novels.

 

 

I also feel like the lore has become like marvel films. And the marvel films are absolute trash. 

 

I wouldn't go that far. In any case, the MCU is a massively profitable franchise, even with its recent wobbles, you cannot blame GW for trying to copy a successful pattern.

[lansalt]

 

The entirety of the marine codexes in 1996 were built around the heresy. 

 

 

my intro to the Horus Heresy was Codex Ultramarines, Codex Chaos, Codex Angels of Death. 

Maybe I should have phrased this differently, but by "forgotten" I meant the HH as a setting and games about it, not background references in 40k.

[Jareddm]

 

Personally, I find it difficult to keep up with it all, or care. Hence why I've gone back to Necromunda, but even that's starting to encounter this sort of thing. I've noticed an uptick in people getting into the setting who don't seem to understand that it's not a competitive game and is designed to be much more like D&D. 

I would actually say that in comparison to the approach 40k has taken, I've been really enjoying the direction Necromunda has been using. Yes, there is now a progressing narrative, but it is more centralized and feels like it is moving in the direction of an actual conclusion that will establish a new status quo. For me, the Aranthian Succession has been a big hit.

[Marshal Rohr]

The setting at present is half the size it used to be, by virtue of cutting half of it off from the only way to move ships around and saying all the Imperials there are stuck and can’t really move to fight back against the rapidly growing chaos and xenos invasions. So instead of something like the Fall of Orpheus, Vraks, or Taros happening anywhere in the galaxy, that all can only happen on one half. If you played someone on the other side of the Rift, tough! You’re stuck and everything is bad and you are constantly under siege but no one from your friends chapter can come help you because of the rift. Real, gritty, solid, and unproblematic story telling!

Edited September 10 by Marshal Rohr

[Timberley]

 

I would actually say that in comparison to the approach 40k has taken, I've been really enjoying the direction Necromunda has been using. Yes, there is now a progressing narrative, but it is more centralized and feels like it is moving in the direction of an actual conclusion that will establish a new status quo. For me, the Aranthian Succession has been a big hit.

Oh don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed that they've moved beyond simple Dominion campaigns in the Underhive with Ash Wastes and Secundus.  The Succession definitely shook things up!  Part of me suspects that Kal Jericho will find a way to save dear old dad and the status quo will be restored, but it'd be interesting if Ozostium Aranthus maintains control.  One thing I do like about the progression of the campaigns is that they've taken on the air of the old Imperial Armour books, with an overall lore narrative, campaign missions that replay old battles but can be adapted to regular play, and the introduction of new units and Dramatis Personae that you can use.

The only thing that really annoys me is the lack of equal House 'specials' (e.g.  Delaque vehicles) across the books.  I was hoping that Desolation would have Clan House specialists similar to the VS Tek-Hunters, but I suspect we'll have to wait for the next book to get something special for them (maybe we'll visit The Eye of Selene, Hive Mortis, or Gothrul's Needle).  

 

However, to drag it back on track, it could be my lack of playtime in 40K by comparison, but I don't get the feeling that the 40K campaigns are heading to any conclusion or have even progressed beyond their initial premises.

Edited September 10 by Timberley
I spell good...

[Gamiel]

 

The setting at present is half the size it used to be, by virtue of cutting half of it off from the only way to move ships around and saying all the Imperials there are stuck and can’t really move to fight back against the rapidly growing chaos and xenos invasions. So instead of something like the Fall of Orpheus, Vraks, or Taros happening anywhere in the galaxy, that all can only happen on one half. If you played someone on the other side of the Rift, tough! You’re stuck and everything is bad and you are constantly under siege but no one from your friends chapter can come help you because of the rift. Real, gritty, solid, and unproblematic story telling!

Based on that we have had a number of books set in Nihilus can't I say that the setting have been halved.

 

 

The only thing that really annoys me is the lack of equal House 'specials' (e.g.  Delaque vehicles) across the books.

Since the Ash Waste book said that Delaque was found all over the waste, just like the rest of the Houses, but nobody know how they got there do I suspect that we will not get any vehicles for them. A price to keep their air of mysteri. 

[Ahzek451]

Obviously take with a grain of salt, but at this point ive heard it enough times from ex GW employees that im inclined to beleive it:  one of the bad habits GW has developed over time is  overworking their staff, and employing cost cutting initiatives in that they often use their game designers to write their lore despite lore creation not being in their wheelhouse and/or passion. Like asking the bread makers to become electricians on occasion and not getting electrician pay. 

 

If true, it would stack up with what we are seeing in codex books in the last few years. A seemingly questionable business decision. I used to collect all the codex books primarily for the lore. I could deal with the increased rate of book release, and the prices was really having me teetering, but the final leg was the lore cuts. 

[TheTrans]

I think everyone is nailing certain points on the head here, but I think the biggest one that has cropped up, and certainly for me anyway, is the fact that 40k is essentially a loosely, 'season driven' narrative now, which, to me and my hobby passions at least, doesn't work.

40k, I think excels in being a setting, and we had that from what, (late 2nd?) 3rd (sans the EoT retcon), all the way through to probably mid 7th. This 'setting' was also further reinforced  by the different Imperial Armour campaign books, which occurred (normally) throughout the last couple of centuries of the 41st millennium, sort of having no shame (in a good way) of covering something that already happened, was completed and a bow was put on it at the end. This allowed you to delve into that little snippet and go wild. Or ignore that snippet, but also jump to somewhere else in the galaxy, in some timeline and do your own thing. This was probably further shown with having dead characters available in codexs (there may be more, but Tycho jumps to mind) where you could use them, but that was in a certain historic timeline. 

Maybe thats it, 40k was future histories in space (which HH sort of picked up the mantle of, but feels a bit shakier now with the HH2.0 releases for some reason). So you got your bolt-action vibes with your space soliders, knowing that while maybe early 750.m40 blood angels may be a bit anachronistic fighting 3rd Phase T'au, it was still in the wheel house as marine gear didn't really change that much in that tiny amount of time. 

But now, we have all beloved characters crossing the 'super dangerous' rubicon and sort of 'locking' them into the modern time frame, essentially, from a fluff-rules perspective, making your current army, to fit thematically, only be really logical in the most 'current' timeline. 

 

Not to mention we have all these big, characters returning...with absolutely zero stakes. The mortal Primarchs will either banish the chaos ones, or retreat. The Chaos ones either are banished (then promptly return) or win... on planet X...which..then..nothing happens about. We also, from an out-of-universe perspective, know within a pretty close percentage of totality, that if GW just dropped a new plastic kit on a character.. there is absolutely zero fear of them dying. 

I think, and this was a point I brought up in a discussion podcast arguing the merits of 6th ed fantasty vs 8th ed fantasy, and that was, the GW of the 3rd/4th Ed 40k ( and 6th Ed fantasy), left a lot of 'blanks' in the lore, dark areas, that your imagination could fill in, and I'm sure we all get that our imagination, and what it does to fill in the blanks, is 90% of the time 1000 times better, or cooler, or more applicable to your own enjoyment than anyone else could ever write and explain. Not to mention so much lore back then was sort of 'in universe' so could be seen as propaganda, or lack of knowledge etc, so again, more wiggle room.

 

Modern 40k though, due possibly to its narrative styled focus, has a lot more 'hard facts' laid out in front of us, that are nominally definite. Even if these were well written and thought out... they still wouldn't be able to ever be as cool or as though invoking as the unknown... 

TL:DR
The 40k setting is like a horror move, they are always there best when you've only gotten a glimpse of the monster / evil and are trying to learn about its motives or where it came from and your imagination is running overtime to fill in the blanks. But normally in the final act you know all about the monster/evil and where it came from/motives and its now nowhere near as scary (or fun) as the first 2 acts.. 

Old 40k as a setting is the first/second act of a horror movie where your imagination runs wild filling the gaps.

Modern 40k as a narrative is the 3rd act of a horro film where we've seen it all and...because its not our imagination doing the work anymore, its kind of 'eh'.

 

[Petitioner's City]

 

Obviously take with a grain of salt, but at this point ive heard it enough times from ex GW employees that im inclined to beleive it:  one of the bad habits GW has developed over time is  overworking their staff, and employing cost cutting initiatives in that they often use their game designers to write their lore despite lore creation not being in their wheelhouse and/or passion. Like asking the bread makers to become electricians on occasion and not getting electrician pay. 

 

If true, it would stack up with what we are seeing in codex books in the last few years. A seemingly questionable business decision. I used to collect all the codex books primarily for the lore. I could deal with the increased rate of book release, and the prices was really having me teetering, but the final leg was the lore cuts. 

 

But it's Wade Pryce who is in charge of this now, and he is passionate.

 

 

Admittedly only in the position from 2022, so there is a lead-in time, but I presume he was also succeeding someone unless it was a new role?

 

Also you have Andy Clark, the novelist, as team lead!

 

 

Also there is a team, as this tweet from  Clark shows!

 

 

Of course take this with "a grain of salt", but all it takes is a quick google and looking at staff profiles on twitter and LinkedIn :)

Edited September 11 by Petitioner's City

[Ahzek451]

 

 

But it's Wade Pryce who is in charge of this now, and he is passionate.

 

 

Admittedly only in the position from 2022, so there is a lead-in time, but I presume he was also succeeding someone unless it was a new role?

 

Also you have Andy Clark, the novelist, as team lead!

 

 

Also there is a team, as this tweet from  Clark shows!

 

 

Of course take this with "a grain of salt", but all it takes is a quick google and looking at staff profiles on twitter and LinkedIn :)

That almost makes it worse if there is an entire "team" and they then cut lore from codex books and a "team" can't manage that anymore. I'm not sure what your getting at here as I never said that lore writers were non-existant. 

[Redcomet]

Everything new is terrible.

 

Everything old is fantastic.

 

Also know as Tuesday on B&C 

[Petitioner's City]

 

That almost makes it worse if there is an entire "team" and they then cut lore from codex books and a "team" can't manage that anymore. I'm not sure what your getting at here as I never said that lore writers were non-existant. 

 

It was that neither Clark nor Pryce are games designers, they are background writers - that's their jobs (edit although based on the liberality of their bluesky posts, I think Clark is a freelancer now - so could be reached out to ask your thoughts). Similarly, the new job from end of 2022/early2023 advert was a lore role, and it made reference to a larger team (of hobgoblins)  - which one can spend time unearthing through social media platforms.

 

In addition, Pryce was a lore writer before he started on vox- and stormcast. He talked about in some of the old podcasts and on twitch. 

 

But to get back to your point, @Ahzek451 - they do have (to borrow your analogy) the electricians doing the electrics - and have had for years.

 

Edited September 11 by Petitioner's City

[Ahzek451]

 

 

It was that neither Clark nor Pryce are games designers, they are background writers - that's their jobs (edit although based on the liberality of their bluesky posts, I think Clark is a freelancer now - so could be reached out to ask your thoughts). Similarly, the new job from end of 2022/early2023 advert was a lore role, and it made reference to a larger team (of hobgoblins)  - which one can spend time unearthing through social media platforms.

 

In addition, Pryce was a lore writer before he started on vox- and stormcast. He talked about in some of the old podcasts and on twitch. 

 

But to get back to your point, @Ahzek451 - they do have (to borrow your analogy) the electricians doing the electrics - and have had for years.

 

Thats great! It could still very well be the case that they do not have enough electricians, or that the workload is not being routed where it should. Your pointing out that there are indeed lore writers, I never said there wasn't. I am simply saying I have come to understand anecdotally on more than one occasion that GW has been known to get the game designers to write lore to cut costs and it wouldn't surprise me. 

Edited September 11 by Ahzek451

[Antarius]

 

Everything new is terrible.

 

Everything old is fantastic.

 

Also know as Tuesday on B&C 

As someone who started back in the nineties, I can confirm that everything was terrible back then too 

That being said, I personally vastly preferred when 40K was a setting, not a storyline. But luckily noone's forcing me to engage with modern 40K lore, if I'd rather not. So my view is that it's there for those who want it and the old lore is (still) there for those who prefer that.

[Antarius]

 

Thats great! It could still very well be the case that they do not have enough electricians, or that the workload is not being routed where it should. Your pointing out that there are indeed lore writers, I never said there wasn't. I am simply saying I have come to understand anecdotally on more than one occasion that GW has been known to get the game designers to write lore to cut costs and it wouldn't surprise me. 

I think that was also pretty standard back in the day (game designers also writing lore). In fact, I think it's actually a model that has a lot going for it, assuming the designers care about the lore and are (reasonably) good writers. When they aren't, though, it's obviously a problem.

[Petitioner's City]

 

Thats great! It could still very well be the case that they do not have enough electricians, or that the workload is not being routed where it should. Your pointing out that there are indeed lore writers, I never said there wasn't. I am simply saying I have come to understand anecdotally on more than one occasion that GW has been known to get the game designers to write lore to cut costs and it wouldn't surprise me. 

 

Possibly! Apologies if I came down too hard on you. 

 

However, I do find it interesting - in contrast to your point - that for many fans, their specific "golden era" for 40k (be it RT, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or FW - or fantasy/whatever else equivalents) was when the games designers *did* the book lore too. Not for cost cutting, but because it was the job - rules designers were world builders and storytellers too. I mean the days of Priestley, Johnson, Chambers, Thorpe, McNeil, Pirinen, etc. - that is, the days of early GW into the 2000s. The survivors of that era still at the company in rules design - Kelly and Hoare, among others - are still in the company, still doing lore too - and SDS (under Hoare) does this still across both its fantasy and scifi sub-teams, in which rules writers do background too.

 

I actually find it odd - loving that model - that Pryce and others like him aren't also doing and leading rules design. I honestly feel that's weird - the game should stem from and be cocreated with the world rigorously built. Of course I know some games designers aren't really gifted in that sense, just as some lore writers might not be gifted in a given rules design methodology - but I think that's what made GW great in the (many different eras of) olden days - its game leads were intimately tied to the stories told within, were responsible for leading on building that world, etc.*

 

Does that make sense?

 

* Edit: Although of course some with the largest impact on the setting - ie several BL authors and artists - possibly benefit from not having to ever think of the game, from a professional perspective, other than as inspiration rather than end point.

Edited September 11 by Petitioner's City

[phandaal]

 

Imperium Nihilus is where GW could have everything dialed up to 11 going off, all the crazy stuff going on and the Imperium is really on the back foot and everything is looking to be lost. That way you please all players of each faction. Have Chaos wanting to do their rituals and turn it into one huge warp empire, the Lion and Dante trying to lead a Crusade to stop Abaddon et al and reunite the two Imperium halves. 

 

Worth remembering that Imperium Nihilus is an Imperial problem, because Imperial factions are the ones using the Astronomicon for Warp travel. All the other races should be getting around just fine within Nihilus.

 

Assuming half of the Imperial worlds are in Imperium Nihilus, then the Imperium covers something like 0.001% of the systems in Nihilus as a high estimate. That would be something interesting to focus on as well - the other 99.999% of the space out there, and what is happening there.

 

Edited September 11 by phandaal
accidentally a word

[Ahzek451]

 

 

Possibly! Apologies if I came down too hard on you. 

 

However, I do find it interesting - in contrast to your point - that for many fans, their specific "golden era" for 40k (be it RT, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or FW - or fantasy/whatever else equivalents) was when the games designers *did* the book lore too. Not for cost cutting, but because it was the job - rules designers were world builders and storytellers too. I mean the days of Priestley, Johnson, Chambers, Thorpe, McNeil, Pirinen, etc. - that is, the days of early GW into the 2000s. The survivors of that era still at the company in rules design - Kelly and Hoare, among others - are still in the company, still doing lore too - and SDS (under Hoare) does this still across both its fantasy and scifi sub-teams, in which rules writers do background too.

 

I actually find it odd - loving that model - that Pryce and others like him aren't also doing and leading rules design. I honestly feel that's weird - the game should stem from and be cocreated with the world rigorously built. Of course I know some games designers aren't really gifted in that sense, just as some lore writers might not be gifted in a given rules design methodology - but I think that's what made GW great in the (many different eras of) olden days - its game leads were intimately tied to the stories told within, were responsible for leading on building that world, etc.*

 

Does that make sense?

 

* Edit: Although of course some with the largest impact on the setting - ie several BL authors and artists - possibly benefit from not having to ever think of the game, from a professional perspective, other than as inspiration rather than end point.

No apolgies necessary and no worries. This is a forum. I know it's difficult to measure someone's temperament through text but that was not an instance where I thought you were coming down too hard. At the most, I see a spirited and fun conversation . Please don't take it as anything other than that. 

 

I wouldn't disagree with most of what you mentioned. But just because it worked back then doesn't mean it does work well now. Different organizational structures, leadership and incentives have a hell of an impact. There are too many gears and moving pieces to accurately say that something that worked back then works well now. As previously mentioned on this topic a few times, a lot of fans have noticed a decline and/or change in the lore that goes beyond your normal everyday gripe that's been around since day 1. And those that feel in such a way are inclined to figure out why that is. I certainly hope I don't give the impression all of GW is bad, at the end of the day most of us want this hobby to succeed. But if there is a squeaky wheel it's going to get pointed out.  I've seen a lot of good talent in GW today, but in an age where corporatized GW exists, coupled with the fact that more and more ex staff have shown what it's like behind the curtain for good or ill, it's worth pointing out deficiencies if it's going to have an overall affect on the hobby. Hopefully that makes sense.

Edited September 11 by Ahzek451

[Lexington]

 

That being said, I personally vastly preferred when 40K was a setting, not a storyline.

I’ve said this before, but one of the big problems here is actually that 40K, as a setting, stopped having a story. It stopped having a direction or an arc or a comprehensible “present”. There’s a lot of plots - so many plots! - but they don’t lead anywhere, or even feel like they ever will.

[darkhorse0607]

 

I’ve said this before, but one of the big problems here is actually that 40K, as a setting, stopped having a story. It stopped having a direction or an arc or a comprehensible “present”. There’s a lot of plots - so many plots! - but they don’t lead anywhere, or even feel like they ever will.

 

I think in that regard they want to have their cake and eat it too

 

Personally, I am ok with having multiple threads going at the same time and leaving it up to the Black Library authors to pursue. I would rather have the Tyranids and Orks fighting around Octarius, the whole Helsreach part 53 thing again, the Eldar going and doing whatever it is they do, the Necrons and their civil war, etc, over another Vigilus, which apparently had to have everyone at the same place.

 

And then you have the more "look big shiny" moments that they're becoming more and more of a fan of doing. "Look! Here's the Lion," "Look! It can't just be a Necron Civil War in the Pariah Nexus, it has to have Cawl! He's a named character! And Guilliman is coming! And you guys like Vashtorr right? Well him too!" and my favorite line "it's the biggest thing since the Horus Heresy!" "Psychic Awakening is happening! Wait, never mind we are going back in time because we made an oopsie launching the Primaris at the end of the Crusade! It's still happening probably! We don't know because we forgot!"

 

My problem is that I don't think they can handle both, and it would be better (again, IMO, if you like it how it is, more power to you) if they stuck to the first method. Have the codices and the campaign books do an overarching view of the faction, or a specific campaign like Vraks, Armaggedon, etc if it's a campaign book like Imperial Armor used to be, and leave everything else to Black Library. I guess then they'd have to pay attention to Black Library again, but that's a different topic that we rant about in the Black Library forum at least once a week it seems.

 

On a personal side, the last few years have seen me go from someone who would buy all the codices and campaigns even though I don't play because I wanted to see what else was going on in the galaxy (and for the art), to maybe browsing a lore channel once in a while to catch up on major things. I still love the lore and pick up a lot of the novels to go through, but on the GW side, it just seems as though it goes from big thing to big thing, but then backward, then forgotten about (4th Tyrannic War, back to Pariah Nexus for example, and then both are kind of moved on from? Maybe?).

 

Also, I'm not a huge fan of the reliance on super characters like the Primarchs, Vashtorr, Cawl, etc, it makes the universe seem smaller and with less consequence. But I understand I may be in the minority judging by all the "I want this primarch to come back" I see

 

*edit

 

I just wanted to add an example of the system I prefer since they've already done it

 

And that is the old Black Books (pre-Siege of Cthonia) intertwined with the Heresy series. Gripes about the Heresy series aside, it was set up with the Black Books to help each other. If you picked up a Black Book, not only did you get an overview of the legion, you got color plates, a few snippets about individual legionaries/characters, an overview of the primarch, a few campaigns they had fought, as well as the big campaign for the book (Istvann, Signus, Thramas, etc). All fleshed out enough to give you something to go on. And then if you wanted more, you could go and grab their novels in the Heresy series to dig more into that specific case. They built off of each other and enriched both sides of the lore

Edited September 11 by darkhorse0607