The setting at present

[Marshal Rohr]

 

This is sort of the reason I really dislike the Horus Heresy novels. It took away all of the mystique and unknowable-ness of the past, which was kind of where the religiosity and mysticism of the Imperium stems from: that long-dead past that is so far removed from the present that there was no way of truly knowing what happened...and then we get a ton of novel that details tons of what happened. Now, people are of course free to like what they wrote, I'm just saying that they did "fill in the blanks." It's especially true of the Primarchs: they were previously these demigods that were paragons of certain aspects of humanity (or at least warfare), and while they certainly had their foibles, it was told through legend and tale - and then with the Heresy novels (and beyond, for those that have returned) we see so much more detail that, well, they're kind of just people now; they're minutely detailed, they're no longer the mythic figures of yore that they were.

 

It's seen in other media - people want more detail on background events, but then we get swamped in more sequels and spin offs and people inevitably get bored. Marvel is a great exaample: people absolutely wanted more, but then we got too much and people start to lose interest (to varying degrees of course) as the volume of media expands. To be fair, not all of the loss of interest is because of the increased scope, plenty of it can be attributed to simple fatigue (with Marvel, once you've seen a dozen superhero films, you start seeing more of the same story beats over and over again).

 

But my point about 40k is that we've gotten so much media about the Heresy (and other small, zoomed in details) or other of great events (Indomitus Crusade) that we lose that spark of interest: part of the allure of these events is their mystery. What happened on Prospero? What happened exactly during the Siege of the Imperial Palace? Instead of being able to think about these things for hours and have debates about what possibly could have happened we have definitive answers, and we get them through direct stories rather than, say, a conversation between two bitter rivals in the 41st Millenium (eg, maybe there's Thousand Son who taunts a Space Wolf about killing a bunch on Prospero; or a Fallen trying to convert a Dark Angel by telling them what they saw, be it true or false).

 

Anyway, all that to say that I think filling in the blanks of some stuff has definitely taken away from the setting overall. Many stories are excellent because of the detail (Gaunt's Ghosts, for example), but they're not fundamentally central to the story.

People lost their love for the heresy because many of the large numbers of stories weren’t great and people were sad their legions didn’t get the ADB or Wraight treatment. Literally no one on earth said “man I sure hope Alan Bligh doesn’t write another black book!”

[ThePenitentOne]

I haven't purchased the Pariah Crusade book for 10th yet. By all accounts, it's better than Tyrannic War. The strategic footing mechanic is cool, but the "Battle Advantage" part of the mechanic only exists in the 15 Pariah Missions included in the book so it doesn't transplant outside this Theatre of War.

 

It is possible for Pariah to profoundly affect a roster that moves on from the theatre, because "Your Dudes" have the potential to walk away with Blackstone Relics (assuming you do enough Blackstone Agendas to earn them- they aren't something you pay for with points0. Unlike the aforementioned Strategic footing mechanics, Blackstone relics WILL follow you beyond the campaign.

 

Story-wise, Pariah provides a precedent for Draxus working alongside Eldar; it also provided proof positive that SoB acts of faith are NOT standard psychic phenomenon, because in many instances, psychc powers were suppressed by Blackstone effects, while AoF were not. While these aren't galaxy-altering story-based events, they are important pieces in terms of growing the lore.

 

If the book is at all like Tyrannic War in terms of setting, it will name three key systems, and a handful of planets within each of those systems, each of which will be fleshed out to varying degrees. Theatre of war rules aren't a thing that GW does after an edition of listening to people who thing they have to memorize every strat in the game in order to win a tourney whine about cognitive load, thus screwing all the narrative players who loved the sandbox... But the descriptions in the book are likely good enough that you can pick appropriate Theatre rules from 8th/ 9th and apply those.

 

I think that there were rules for the Stilling that applied planet wide... Until you win enough battles to turn them off. And that was how "Your Dudes" told the story of the narrative, regardless of the special characters that showed up in Theatre. Like yeah, Draxus was there, and I'm an Inquisition junkie, so even as a Crusader, I'd use her in a game or two (with one or two of the aforementioned Eldar support units)... But for the most part, it would be my dudes that determined whether or not the Stilling phenomenon was conquered on a given planet, and that information then becomes a part of "my version" of the galaxy.

 

Again, when people complain about narratives not going anywhere, I feel like they forget that even though there are "plot points" that set up various details, the lore has to continue to be somewhat open ended so that we can play through the campaign. Curing the Stillness on as many planets as you can was a way to do that. 

[MegaVolt87]

Pariah Crusade I find interesting as GW seems keen to expand this out more. Has some interesting plot points with those blackstone pylons as well. The original ones at Cadia seemed to have a positive/ neutral effect vs the warp, but the ones being used in Nexus look to be having a negative effect on Imperial citizens. Silent King also seems to be most active in this area as well currently ? 

[Timberley]

I'm in agreement with @Kallas and @Karhedron here; it feels like the myths and legends that add up to make the 41st Millennium (the Heresy, the War In Heaven, etc.) are gradually becoming more set in stone.  The Heresy books, whilst expansive and undoubtedly great for some people, left me more annoyed than delighted, as the Heresy had been this historical event that was so far removed from the 'current day' that it was almost a religious event, subject to embellished retellings and contradictions, with the only surety being that the Emperor, who had walked amongst His people until then, was now ensconced on the Golden Throne.  Now it feels like it's been subject to almost forensic historical research, and the tall tales are shown to be mundane and not as interesting.  Less Gods amongst Men, more Men with particular schticks amongst Men.

 

In part because of this, the quasi-religious nature of the whole setting has diminished to my eyes. and the return of the Primarchs has felt like a damp squib.  I think @sairence is onto something with the modern society angle, as we used to have to wait for either a WD article, an expansion, or a new Edition to advance the lore, so it felt more like a setting than a continuous story, with isolated wars, filled with their own characters and Groups of Renown that weren't present in the vastness of the wider universe.  Nowadays, it feels like they're advancing the story every other week, and because the same characters/regiments/chapters/insert-specific-element-of-a-faction-here seem to be in every story, the universe feels much smaller, less room for 'your dudes' to live within the cracks and have their own adventures/battles.  It's slightly hyperbolic, but that's the perception I get.

 

However, I do realise (as I said earlier) that the lore is there to service the selling of miniatures.  If GW thinks they can increase their market share/profits by emphasising certain characters/factions and pushing others to one side (looking at you Deathwatch), then they will do so.

[ThePenitentOne]

For me, Heresy was virtually irrelevant, because Marines tend to be the parts of the story I don't bother with- they're so ubiquitous that their stories will be told whether or not I play role so I'll just let that play out.

 

But if GW released a fall of the Eldar game, or an Age of Apostasy game, I'd be all over it. It certainly would not bother me if there were models for the Matriarchs of the SoB, or for Vandire, Bucharis and the Witch Cult of Mnessteus. That'll never happen of course... But I would certainly embrace it if it did.

Edited September 16 by ThePenitentOne

[Arkangilos]

 

People lost their love for the heresy because many of the large numbers of stories weren’t great and people were sad their legions didn’t get the ADB or Wraight treatment. Literally no one on earth said “man I sure hope Alan Bligh doesn’t write another black book!”

This. The BA stories were originally awful, and so I lost all interest until the Black Book and ADB fixed them. Then I was big on the HH again until Dan Abnett ruined it again in the last book.

 

The Black Book and ADB at least the appearance it was the same legion, almost like a seed that would develop into the 40K. But then it ended without all the stuff that was established in the heresy so the link isn’t there anymore.

[Scribe]

 

Story-wise, Pariah provides a precedent for Draxus working alongside Eldar; it also provided proof positive that SoB acts of faith are NOT standard psychic phenomenon, because in many instances, psychc powers were suppressed by Blackstone effects, while AoF were not. While these aren't galaxy-altering story-based events, they are important pieces in terms of growing the lore.

 

Yikes, hate that.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

Yikes, hate that.

 

Which part- Draxus working with Eldar, or AoF not being psychic powers?

 

The 10th ed write up on Draxus makes it clear that she's a radical, if the fact that she fights with a Shuricat and keeps an exotic alien pet weren't enough to do that for you. Now of course, there are no rules that say Draxus can work with Eldar, and you're completely free to ignore it in favor of your own head canon. I tend to lean as far into whatever GW gives me, because I believe that's part of the art form that is narrative gaming. But that's me, and I don't necessarily have any desire to impose my preferences on others.

 

AoF were never subject to deny the witch, so it's not like we as players didn't already know they weren't psychic powers... It's just that the action in Pariah proved it to the in-universe Imperials who might have once thought otherwise.

Edited September 17 by ThePenitentOne

[Gamiel]

 

 

I don't read White Dwarf, so didn't know they gave more lore on it there. I talked about Pariah Nexus because was one of the story-lines I could think of that gave us a campaign book about their lore advancing recently.

If you are interested in lore do I suggest that you read WD, GW do much of their expansions on the setting in those papers.

[Jscarlos18]

 

If you are interested in lore do I suggest that you read WD, GW do much of their expansions on the setting in those papers.

Got it. It's a shame the codex give only the bare minimum of lore for any given faction since Xenos ones tend to get as little as possible already when not tied to fighting Space Marines or Primarchs.

[Doghouse]

This may come across as being a bit Grognard but it is my intention that I am being honest in a respectful way from my personal perspective and not bashing what others might love.

 

I think they should have left the Heresy at First Heretic because seeing the rise of the Imperium was genuinely interesting but I really do not need to know all the tiny details that made the mystery of the setting.

 

On the whole I prefer the setting as a sandbox and don't buy into the "you asked us to advance the timeline and we listened" in the slightest, it's blatantly a marketing tool to sell more products which at the end of the day I can't really blame them for because at the end of the day they are a business first.

 

Up until 8th edition I knew the lore inside and out but these days I struggle to keep up with it all. It feels like some modern films to me these days where you have to watch the film, read the comics, read all the blogs, read the spin off novels, I much preferred it when it was all in the Codex and you were left to speculate.

[Gamiel]

 

Up until 8th edition I knew the lore inside and out but these days I struggle to keep up with it all. It feels like some modern films to me these days where you have to watch the film, read the comics, read all the blogs, read the spin off novels, I much preferred it when it was all in the Codex and you were left to speculate.

But was it not that back in the day that to know lore inside and out you had to read the Codexes, Black Library books, keep up with not just WD but also Inferno!, Warhammer Monthly, Fanatic, Battlefleet Gothic Magazine, Exterminatus, Epic 40,000 Magazine, Necromunda Magazine, The Citadel Journal, and Chapter Approved (since some of the stuff there had not been earlier been published in WD)? 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

But was it not that back in the day that to know lore inside and out you had to read the Codexes, Black Library books, keep up with not just WD but also Inferno!, Warhammer Monthly, Fanatic, Battlefleet Gothic Magazine, Exterminatus, Epic 40,000 Magazine, Necromunda Magazine, The Citadel Journal, and Chapter Approved (since some of the stuff there had not been earlier been published in WD)? 

Yes but that lore was good 

[Scribe]

 

AoF were never subject to deny the witch, so it's not like we as players didn't already know they weren't psychic powers... It's just that the action in Pariah proved it to the in-universe Imperials who might have once thought otherwise.

 

This part. I believe it should all be Psychic, aka, of the Warp.

[Doghouse]

 

But was it not that back in the day that to know lore inside and out you had to read the Codexes, Black Library books, keep up with not just WD but also Inferno!, Warhammer Monthly, Fanatic, Battlefleet Gothic Magazine, Exterminatus, Epic 40,000 Magazine, Necromunda Magazine, The Citadel Journal, and Chapter Approved (since some of the stuff there had not been earlier been published in WD)? 

 

Not really no, the bulk of the lore probably up until the rise of Black Library (circa 2008?) was in the Codex for your army and main rulebook. The specialist magazines were more old school alternative rules for existing games in line with fanzines and never really considered mainstream enough to consider 'official' by most players. The naming of the second Legion is a good example in one of them. People used to come to me for advice on making their own army lore or Codex or asking questions and I have never referred anyone to any specialist magazine.  

 

White Dwarf articles were mostly reprints of the codex stuff maybe with a bit more of insight from designers and their thoughts. Even Black Library wasn't considered canon at one point but I think the Heresy series probably changed that mentality.

 

I personally think the 2nd edition Codices were best for lore.

[phandaal]

 

I think they should have left the Heresy at First Heretic because seeing the rise of the Imperium was genuinely interesting but I really do not need to know all the tiny details that made the mystery of the setting.

 

Agreed. Some of the earliest Heresy books were neat, but eventually it became way too much detail and minutia. Worst thing about it is more and more Heresy themes and characters started getting pulled forward into 40k, effectively turning ancient history and legend into "yesterday" and squishing away all of the history and lore between the Heresy and 40k.

 

For reference, the Sumerian empire existed about 4500 years ago. The Old Kingdom of Egypt was about that far back as well. The Heresy is more than twice as ancient as that compared to 40k, but thanks to the way it was handled it definitely does not feel like it.

[crimsondave]

I’m the rare old guy who really needs the story to move forward.  I got so bored with the setting mid 2000’s I almost quit paying attention to it at all.  I wanted the living primarchs back since the  2nd edition codices (mainly Angles of Death.)  Don’t get me wrong, I like the old lore.  I was just thumbing through my old Codex Chaos from 2nd edition yesterday.  Sure there was some cool campaigns and such but after 10 years of nothing major happening I got really, really bored with it.  I guess major things happened, it just didn’t change anything and you could be fairly certain it wasn’t going to.  When Gathering Storm then 8th edition hit is when I really got interested in (and started back spending money on) 40k again.

 

My main complaint now is nothing seems to be getting finished and there’s too many stories going on at once.

[Ahzek451]

 

I’m the rare old guy who really needs the story to move forward.  I got so bored with the setting mid 2000’s I almost quit paying attention to it at all.  I wanted the living primarchs back since the  2nd edition codices (mainly Angles of Death.)  Don’t get me wrong, I like the old lore.  I was just thumbing through my old Codex Chaos from 2nd edition yesterday.  Sure there was some cool campaigns and such but after 10 years of nothing major happening I got really, really bored with it.  I guess major things happened, it just didn’t change anything and you could be fairly certain it wasn’t going to.  When Gathering Storm then 8th edition hit is when I really got interested in (and started back spending money on) 40k again.

 

My main complaint now is nothing seems to be getting finished and there’s too many stories going on at once.

What springs to my mind is lore is coming in off an assembly line vs. something finely crafted with care. Touching back on some of the Horus Heresy novels, so much of it in the later stages packed with filler story lines that don't add a lot of value to the main stories. I'll drag sigmar into this, I wasn't too involved with oldworld lore so I don't have a huge passionate stake in it.  Warhammer age of sigmar lore is so hard for me to get into. And I really tried. It reeks of rushed processed get-it-done to-have-it and fix the details later. And I feel some of this has bled into 40k/HH. Maybe what we are seeing is a product of too much going on at once for this company, becoming more corporatized and too many supervisors making the calls to get things pushed out the door. The age of warhammer Mc'lore. 

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I absolutely loved the HH novels. It's what got me into HH. 

 

I also don't think it has explained everything or robbed 30k/40k of mystery. I think there's plenty left. 

 

I'm also a huge fan of the return of the Primarchs. To be honest, the more 40k becomes like the HH the better. I find Space Marines better than all the other stuff. 

 

I found the lack of progress in 40k narrative hugely frustrating. But I find how they've handled a moving narrative even worse because theirs no resolution or consequence. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Right then.

So the Tyranids are here and eating half the galaxy, right?

Except, we've kinda heard nothing about that since the Leviathan box.

 

And now, a whole 2/8ths of an edition later, we're back in NECRON LAND, baby!

We couldn't even focus on the 'Nid threat for a whole year and we're back to the 9th ed story beat!

 

In other news:

The galaxy is still split in half, not that we're really talking about that.

The Dark Angels have taken the Blood Angels' Job in protecting said Imperium Nihilus, leaving the Sangy Bois jobless.

The T'au are trying to convert Chalnath again, I guess.

 

That's... kinda it?

Everything else is just the classic WH40k "Constantly spiralling towards destruction without actually moving an inch" situation.

Edited September 17 by Indy Techwisp

[Mr Farson]

Does the most recent Plague war take place pre or post leviathan and silent king shin dig? 

 

I wonder if going forward each starter set story element will receive a book each edition for continued development.

 

I think with so much of the new books being narrative play only it limits whom actually experiences the content.

[Sky Potato]

 

Right then.

So the Tyranids are here and eating half the galaxy, right?

Except, we've kinda heard nothing about that since the Leviathan box.

 

And now, a whole 2/8ths of an edition later, we're back in NECRON LAND, baby!

We couldn't even focus on the 'Nid threat for a whole year and we're back to the 9th ed story beat!

 

In other news:

The galaxy is still split in half, not that we're really talking about that.

The Dark Angels have taken the Blood Angels' Job in protecting said Imperium Nihilus, leaving the Sangy Bois jobless.

The T'au are trying to convert Chalnath again, I guess.

 

That's... kinda it?

Everything else is just the classic WH40k "Constantly spiralling towards destruction without actually moving an inch" situation.

 

Basically, yes.

 

Surely it can't be that hard for a company the size of GW to co-ordinate all their releases so all the fiction ties into what the current edition of the tabletop game is doing at the moment?

 

As well being very little Tyranid action during 10th, there was very little Necron stuff during 9th.

[crimsondave]

 

Does the most recent Plague war take place pre or post leviathan and silent king shin dig? 

 

I wonder if going forward each starter set story element will receive a book each edition for continued development.

 

I think with so much of the new books being narrative play only it limits whom actually experiences the content.

That would be pre-Pariah and pre-Leviathan or I'm more confused about the lore than I thought.

 

 

Right then.

So the Tyranids are here and eating half the galaxy, right?

Except, we've kinda heard nothing about that since the Leviathan box.

 

And now, a whole 2/8ths of an edition later, we're back in NECRON LAND, baby!

We couldn't even focus on the 'Nid threat for a whole year and we're back to the 9th ed story beat!

 

In other news:

The galaxy is still split in half, not that we're really talking about that.

The Dark Angels have taken the Blood Angels' Job in protecting said Imperium Nihilus, leaving the Sangy Bois jobless.

The T'au are trying to convert Chalnath again, I guess.

 

That's... kinda it?

Everything else is just the classic WH40k "Constantly spiralling towards destruction without actually moving an inch" situation.

 

I wish GW would have just come out and said, hey we were dragging butt on getting the Necron thing done so we're going to go back to that but we will get to the Tyranids after.  The way the Tyranids eating half the galaxy is just kinda put on hold is.......weird.

 

I think the Dark Angels teamed up with the Blood Angels rather than took their place.  Frankly, an Angels of Death tag team has been a dream of mine since I got into 40k so I'm cool with it.  Which probably means GW will do absolutely nothing with it.

[phandaal]

 

Maybe what we are seeing is a product of too much going on at once for this company, becoming more corporatized and too many supervisors making the calls to get things pushed out the door. The age of warhammer Mc'lore. 

 

Agreed again. Can you imagine modern GW doing something like putting giant hats on an entire faction just because one of their sculptors was having a little battle with management over whether he made them big enough? Stuff like that gives the world a soul.

 

What we get nowadays does have a spark of that feeling, sometimes. When I read the new Votann lore I often found myself thinking "yeah, they gave this to someone who really loves space dwarves."

 

Sadly, that feels like the exception rather than the rule these days. More often than not it is "Disney Marvel does Warhammer."

 

Edited September 18 by phandaal

[Timberley]

 

What springs to my mind is lore is coming in off an assembly line vs. something finely crafted with care. Touching back on some of the Horus Heresy novels, so much of it in the later stages packed with filler story lines that don't add a lot of value to the main stories. I'll drag sigmar into this, I wasn't too involved with oldworld lore so I don't have a huge passionate stake in it.  Warhammer age of sigmar lore is so hard for me to get into. And I really tried. It reeks of rushed processed get-it-done to-have-it and fix the details later. And I feel some of this has bled into 40k/HH. Maybe what we are seeing is a product of too much going on at once for this company, becoming more corporatized and too many supervisors making the calls to get things pushed out the door. The age of warhammer Mc'lore. 

 

I think this is a definite problem.  It certainly explains the copy and paste sensation I get from recent codexes.  @Indy Techwisp mentioned the various story threads that've happened in the last wee while, all tied to the 'Big Box' that launched the edition.  I find it baffling that GW doesn't have the launch box be a campaign box with a book, similar to ye olde 'Armageddon' or 'Eye of Terror' (or to supersize it, the old Imperial Armour books) with a different chapter each time.  There's a full campaign with a definite start, middle and end, and you can play it as an isolated thing, outwith standard matches and such.  It's something Necromunda still does.