The Third Tithes episode ... I do not understand the ending or main theme?

[Scribe]

I'm not talking about edge cases here, I'm talking the foundation, the pillars, the tropes, which outright define what 40K is.

 

The Celestial Lions tried to take a stand, was there a reasonable, measured, and considerate response?

[wecanhaveallthree]

The 'derp' comes from everyone just letting it happen. Again; I get that there's an idea that everyone's so paralysed they can't do anything about it, but I think it would have been much, much more effective to have the ammo taken at gunpoint. Even have a short fight over it, literally expending more resources than are gained, and then throw them away at the end. This is relatively bloodless for the 'bloodiest regime imaginable'. Killing and turning loyal soldiers in the name of the Tithe - the 'principle' - and using more resources than you gain from it, because the institution is more important than anything, is peak Imperium to me. 

 

Also it's an excuse for MORE FIGHTIN' which is never a bad thing. 'In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only standing around helplessly' is a far less effective tagline. 

[Scribe]

 

The 'derp' comes from everyone just letting it happen. Again; I get that there's an idea that everyone's so paralysed they can't do anything about it, but I think it would have been much, much more effective to have the ammo taken at gunpoint. Even have a short fight over it, literally expending more resources than are gained, and then throw them away at the end. This is relatively bloodless for the 'bloodiest regime imaginable'. Killing and turning loyal soldiers in the name of the Tithe - the 'principle' - and using more resources than you gain from it, because the institution is more important than anything, is peak Imperium to me. 

 

Also it's an excuse for MORE FIGHTIN' which is never a bad thing. 'In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only standing around helplessly' is a far less effective tagline. 

 

I disagree. Fighting over it, means someone is fighting back, against the absurdity.

 

It is much more on brand, that there is no fight, there is only process. Ignorance. The Imperium. You dont fight it, you just do as you are told. Thats way more 40K.

 

Heck, there is a reason its the actual good guys are the ones who fight the Imperium.

 

Death to the False Emperor. ;)

Edited September 24 by Scribe

[wecanhaveallthree]

>You just do as you are told.

 

It's A Theme, but my preference is to show that the Imperium drives its loyal citizens into rebellion/bad acts or just does things with no actual gain to them. It's why Vraks is such a banger, because they fight over the resources of a world only to have literally every single resource expended in that fighting. Saying 'haha we destroyed de ammo and you did nothing' is A Theme, but it's not as powerful or effective as 'we will literally kill you and use far more resources to get this thing and then destroy it'. 

 

It's like Perturabo making Magnus that wonderful psychic device then breaking it over his head so he gets the message. 

[Nagashsnee]

 

>You just do as you are told.

 

It's A Theme, but my preference is to show that the Imperium drives its loyal citizens into rebellion/bad acts or just does things with no actual gain to them. It's why Vraks is such a banger, because they fight over the resources of a world only to have literally every single resource expended in that fighting. Saying 'haha we destroyed de ammo and you did nothing' is A Theme, but it's not as powerful or effective as 'we will literally kill you and use far more resources to get this thing and then destroy it'. 

 

While i get you, i think you overestimate the resources these warhammer plus shows have. And how much they feel comfortable  dealing with theme wise in their timeframe. 

This episode was about wasting the tithes and how that can affect people. Adding on a whole second plot on HOW that waste and affects can drive people to action is basically adding a whole extra episode on.  Adding more action adds much higher animation cost then people standing around looking helpless etc etc. 

 

I think they did all right with what they had, and i understand how the limitations the are working with means that having the tithe be 2 cargo containers instead of thousands is simply the digital child of warhammer numbers being silly. 

[StrangerOrders]

Gonna go ahead and toss my two cents in.

 

I think, irregardless of your opinions on whether it was a good story or not, it is a big mistake to place too much intent in it.

 

Tithes is ultimately meant to be a 'dip your toes into the setting', as are nearly all animations by GW. Now yes, that is a hilarious statement given how Warhammer+ works, but you guys are forgetting a key thing.

 

The logic behind Tithes is not that far off from how GW operates. Replace the tithed bullets with a GW warehouse's inexplicable supply of Tzangors and Reivers and I am perplexed at how stunning the similarity is.

 

The Tithes videos are not meant to be smart or a deep look at the setting. The last one had a psychic harvest literally in the depths of a hilariously unsecured jungle when anyone that has opened a Black Library book knows the Imperium is ferociously paranoid about keeping psykers as securely locked as possible (and yet they only had a squad of exceedingly elite arbites on guarding it without the usual army of troops garrisoning it). (They also frankly look too much like mundane prisoners that havent been starved, tortured or worse but I digress).

 

Yes, it is grimderp, hilariously so to the degree that I feel its a good litmus test to your overall take of the setting. It is not really any more funny, insightful or creative than latenight comedians.

 

But it is really easy to digest for a newbie that just got into the setting. It is grotesque parody (of an already grotesque parody) in the same way most film adaptations are of written material. But thats the point, it is really easy to see it in a few minutes, laugh at how crazy the Imperium is (while roughly getting the point) and think you either want to learn more (go buy books) or collect the 'pew pew tax men'. Which is the objective.

 

Again, despite its inexplicable inaccessibility for a new person, it is not really meant to provide anything meaningful to someone already neck deep into the setting (i.e. the alternatively sane folks that would actually pay for Warhammer+).

 

So, much like most movies, turn your brain off and clap while it gets more folks into the hobby (which is ultimately a good thing). The books are there if you want actual nuance (or at least, more creative grimderp).

 

Just my two cents.

Edited September 24 by StrangerOrders

[DukeLeto69]

 

What you said is not wrong, but it doesn't fully match my take on it. Everybody is free to have their own opinion at the end of it, because we approach the hobby and genre from different angles of perspective. People look for different things in the genre, and for the most part its big enough that they find it.

 

 

The beauty of W40k was that it was always something of a sandbox setting to allow you to have fun with your metal/plastic dudes. There was plenty of room to head canon (one example being the two missing/redacted primarchs). So if one person wants tp believe the Imperium are the good guys besieged on all sides fighting for survival against impossible odds, then that is fine because another person will just say the first person has swallowed Imperial propaganda because they are xenophobic space nazis. 
 

I have been involved with this hobby since 1987 (yep I am old). W40K Rogue Trader was a product of the nihilism in the 70s/80s with a very British (dark and sarcastic) sense of humour. The Imperium was a hybrid of George Orwell’s 1984, Terry Gilliam’s Brazil, 2000AD, with a splash of Lovecraftian horror. It was always very Dark and very Grim, and at times deliberately completely absurd.

 

The opening blurb in Black Library novels always summed it up pretty well. The human race is stagnant and clinging to tradition. It is the Dark Ages after the Roman Empire collapses (as used to be taught - not so much now).

 

I cannot remember if it was one of Wraight’s books set on Terra (Vaults of Terra trilogy or the Watchers of the Throne books) or Haley’s first Dawn of Fire book, but there is a sub plot about someone trying to deliver a piece of velum with urgent news about the loss of a system/chaos invasion (I may have that a bit wrong) that climaxes beautifully by showing the utterly dysfunctional mess that is the Imperium and appears to fit very well thematically with The Tithes.

Edited September 24 by DukeLeto69

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

iI cannot remember if it was one of Wraight’s books set on Terra (Vaults of Terra trilogy or the Watchers of the Throne books) or Haley’s first Dawn of Fire book, but there is a sub plot about someone trying to deliver a piece of velum with urgent news about the loss of a system/chaos invasion (I may have that a bit wrong) that climaxes beautifully by showing the utterly dysfunctional mess that is the Imperium and appears to fit very well thematically with The Tithes.

 

That was Dawn of Fire, and it's another case of Black Library not knowing where they were going. The whole point of that character's subplot was to explain why it took the Imperium so long to discover what was going on in the Pariah Nexus, since the Indomitus novel was specifically set nine years into the Indomitus Crusade. Meanwhile, the Pariah book in Psychic Awakening had already had the Imperium sending a fleet element on a beeline for the region at the start of the Crusade having heard of the weirdness in the region.

 

Ultimately, they just went ahead and had the Imperium (and specifically Guilliman) learn behind the scenes about the Nexus events prior to book 2 (or 3?) of Dawn of War, effectively rendering the Indomitus novel completely out of continuity. If Guilliman knows about the Pariah Nexus events that early, there's no way he's sending out a primary Crusade fleet over half a decade later to that same region of space (headed by Ultramarines, no less) with zero heads-up about what they're going to run into.

 

(And no, you can't use "but, muh Warp" to try to keep Indomitus valid - a core aspect of the story is that it's not only been nine years for the fleet elements and the Primaris Marines who've been part of it since they left Terra, but it's also been nine years ON Terra since the new Captain and one of the Lieutenants in the blue boys had only left Mars that long after the Crusade had kicked off).

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

That was Dawn of Fire, and it's another case of Black Library not knowing where they were going. The whole point of that character's subplot was to explain why it took the Imperium so long to discover what was going on in the Pariah Nexus, since the Indomitus novel was specifically set nine years into the Indomitus Crusade. Meanwhile, the Pariah book in Psychic Awakening had already had the Imperium sending a fleet element on a beeline for the region at the start of the Crusade having heard of the weirdness in the region.

 

Ultimately, they just went ahead and had the Imperium (and specifically Guilliman) learn behind the scenes about the Nexus events prior to book 2 (or 3?) of Dawn of War, effectively rendering the Indomitus novel completely out of continuity. If Guilliman knows about the Pariah Nexus events that early, there's no way he's sending out a primary Crusade fleet over half a decade later to that same region of space (headed by Ultramarines, no less) with zero heads-up about what they're going to run into.

 

(And no, you can't use "but, muh Warp" to try to keep Indomitus valid - a core aspect of the story is that it's not only been nine years for the fleet elements and the Primaris Marines who've been part of it since they left Terra, but it's also been nine years ON Terra since the new Captain and one of the Lieutenants in the blue boys had only left Mars that long after the Crusade had kicked off).

Sure all you say is correct but you’ve missed the point I was making.

 

38,000 years in the future and the Imperium is:

 

1. Using Velum to record important information.

2. Requiring someone to travel through the bowels of the Imperial Palace through all manner of nasty situations to then join some insanely long queue to then get that important communique just swallowed up by some mega byzantine bureaucratic mess.

 

It is clearly all insane and batsh1t crazy! And I love it!

Edited September 24 by DukeLeto69

[Scribe]

 

38,000 years in the future and the Imperium is:

 

1. Using Velum to record important information.

2. Requiring someone to travel through the bowels of the Imperial Palace through all manner of nasty situations to then join some insanely long queue to then get that important communique just swallowed up by some mega byzantine bureaucratic mess.

 

It is clearly all insane and batsh1t crazy! And I love it!

 

And if I remember, the incredibly important message, was being delivered by countless others, to an abandoned room. Exactly on brand for 40K.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

Sure all you say is correct but you’ve missed the point I was making.

 

I didn't miss that point at all. What gave you the impression I did?

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

I didn't miss that point at all. What gave you the impression I did?

Because your post was focused on Black Library and attempts to explain supposed mistakes in the lore via different sources rather than the focus being on the nature of the setting and how it is grim and dark and absurd. Maybe if your post acknowledged that before talking about a different point it would be clear you hadn’t missed the point I was making? However, it doesn’t actually matter.