(Theory) Guilliman is Dead

[Evil Eye]

An interesting theory via Olden Demon on the actual identity of the plastic "Roboute Guilliman". Certainly a fun watch!

[Moonstalker]

I like a good fan theory as much as the next guy, but jeez he took a long time getting to the point.  There are some bits that I'm not sure he has exactly right, and I'm not sure whether it's him getting it wrong, new lore, or him failing to draw a distinction between old lore and new lore.  Such as him stating that Guilliman's wounds were visibly healing - this was some of the teased hope for the future in the 5th ed Marine dex, one of those bits that was open to interpretation, where some people believed his wounds were healing.  Something that should be impossible in a stasis field, which should cast doubt on any claim that his wounds were healing.  And then that Guilliman had instructed that the stasis field he would be kept in be created way before he needed it.  I don't recall that from any old lore, it was always just something the UM did when they got him home, as him dying was more of an issue of the poison blades his neck had been cut with than the whole cut was in the first place.

[Wormwoods]

Look, I would love for him to be dead, Primarchs are garbage, but I'm not that lucky. 

[Emperor Ming]

and guiliman did die anyway during the plague wars and the emperor showed up in person to bring him back

[Indy Techwisp]

He's died Twice already tho, right?

Once so the Ynnari Resurrection Ritual could heal his mortal wound and bring him back to life and once more when Big E in his "Totally not a God" spirit form revived him while screwing over Nurgle.

[Scribe]

 

He's died Twice already tho, right?

Once so the Ynnari Resurrection Ritual could heal his mortal wound and bring him back to life and once more when Big E in his "Totally not a God" spirit form revived him while screwing over Nurgle.

 

Seriously weak lore.

 

Having Rob be an undead meat puppet of the Emperor's Psychic Might or Eldar Tech and Witchcraft, would be appropriate to the setting. Having Rob just keep getting revived by plot armour, is not.

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

 

 

Seriously weak lore.

 

Having Rob be an undead meat puppet of the Emperor's Psychic Might or Eldar Tech and Witchcraft, would be appropriate to the setting. Having Rob just keep getting revived by plot armour, is not.

You can´t have Grimdark in modern 40K. It´s now a Saturday morning cartoon show.

[Scribe]

 

You can´t have Grimdark in modern 40K. It´s now a Saturday morning cartoon show.

 

A pity.

[HeadlessCross]

 

You can´t have Grimdark in modern 40K. It´s now a Saturday morning cartoon show.

Good things happening once in a while is absolutely unacceptable. 

[Evil Eye]

 

Good things happening once in a while is absolutely unacceptable. 

This but unironically.

[Tacitus]

On 9/22/2024 at 3:38 PM, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

You can´t have Grimdark in modern 40K. It´s now a Saturday morning cartoon show.

Plot Armor has been around for a lot longer than "modern 40K".  The entire setting is about inertia and status quo.

[Karhedron]

I think you need the occasional flicker of light in 40K in order to cast the rest of the GrimDark into sharp relief. Despite Guilliman being a figure of hope to the rest of the Imperium, he himself does not believe he can save everything. He does what he can while being gnawed by the constant horror of seeing what the Emperor's dream has turned into.

 

Ónen i-estel edain, ú-chebin estel anim.

[Indy Techwisp]

Why's this popped back up again?

 

We know Guilliman died, we saw it happen in the book he came back in.

Yeah, Yvraine then immediately rezzes him and Cawl gives him the Power Armour of "Ignore Resurrection Sickness" to mitigate the drawbacks of returning to the mortal plane, but it does mean that Guilliman has actually died once, forever ruining his KD ratio.

[Karhedron]

Spoilers for Godblight

 

Spoiler

Technically Guilliman dies again in Godblight to the disease of the same name but the Emperor resurrects him. This makes him one of the few characters to have died and returned twice.

 

[Indy Techwisp]

16 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Spoilers for Godblight

 

  Hide contents

Technically Guilliman dies again in Godblight to the disease of the same name but the Emperor resurrects him. This makes him one of the few characters to have died and returned twice.

 

Spoiler

I guess his KD ratio is worse than I thought.

Regardless, he isn't dead currently.

He was previously dead, but he got better.

That's the Canon status for him.

[Tacitus]

And I think people are assuming - below are a couple of interpretations

Spoiler

He may have been dead.

He may have been on death's door in some sort of spiritual/medical calamity and was cured just before death

He may have just been so deep in despair he felt like he was dying.

 

Because the story is told from his perspective and uses his mind/feelings we don't have a hard and fast "diagnosis" presented as fact, just the first person recount. 

 

On 12/7/2024 at 4:36 PM, Indy Techwisp said:

Why's this popped back up again?

 

We know Guilliman died, we saw it happen in the book he came back in.

Yeah, Yvraine then immediately rezzes him and Cawl gives him the Power Armour of "Ignore Resurrection Sickness" to mitigate the drawbacks of returning to the mortal plane, but it does mean that Guilliman has actually died once, forever ruining his KD ratio.

Again, we were told - by Yvraine who had her own agenda - that Gulliman died.  Its probably a safe assumption.  But there's still room for interpretation and retconning without being ridiculous. 

[Indy Techwisp]

7 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Again, we were told - by Yvraine who had her own agenda - that Gulliman died.  Its probably a safe assumption.  But there's still room for interpretation and retconning without being ridiculous. 

 

So I'm putting this in spoilers here:

Spoiler

He's been revived twice in canon so far.

Yvraine straight up shanks him so the Ynnari revive strat can work which it does.
Moriarton kills him with the Disease specifically designed to kill Primarchs and Big E brings him back.

 

We also know that he isn't currently dead in Canon 'cause he made an onscreen appearance during the intro to 10th.

 

 

While speculation is fine and all, it's kinda hard to speculate on whether one of the only canonically confirmed true lore pieces is actually real or not.

Edited December 8 by Indy Techwisp

[Tacitus]

Spoiler

Was the shank a death blow, or some sort of cheating-death an injection of the antidote designed to look like a deathblow 

 

And again did Mortarion kill him, or did Bobby G only THINK he was dying - either from near death, despair, or both?

 

 

At any time did an outside narrator - i.e. not Bobby G telling the story like a recollection but some outsider who tells us what happened, not what they think they witnessed- confirm these details?  That's the point I'm making.  If the story is told by Bobby G, the only thing canonically confirmed is what Bobby G thinks he knew and knows.  This is not always the same as what actually happened. 

[Indy Techwisp]

7 hours ago, Tacitus said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Was the shank a death blow, or some sort of cheating-death an injection of the antidote designed to look like a deathblow 

 

And again did Mortarion kill him, or did Bobby G only THINK he was dying - either from near death, despair, or both?

 

 

At any time did an outside narrator - i.e. not Bobby G telling the story like a recollection but some outsider who tells us what happened, not what they think they witnessed- confirm these details?  That's the point I'm making.  If the story is told by Bobby G, the only thing canonically confirmed is what Bobby G thinks he knew and knows.  This is not always the same as what actually happened. 

 

Spoiler

I offer up "Voice of God" and point out that GW themselves say they were both actual deaths.

 

For a more in universe look tho, Yvraine and Cawl both clear eachother of faking it because Guilliman coming back to life needed them both to do their jobs perfectly (Yvraine doing the stab right to perform the Ynnari resurrection ritual and Cawl getting Bobby G into the suit before the wound that put him in stasis initially could kick back in again).

 

And for the latter Big E, the literal Voice of God in this case, confirms he brought G-Man back to life before igniting Nurgle's House.

We can confirm Big E isn't lying here because he uses the same power to take some random saint-girl's body for a spin earlier in the Book.

 

Also, besides all that, what narrative purpose is there for Guilliman only thinking he died at some point?

What does that actually do for the story?

 

There's real narrative weight put behind the aforementioned incidents.

Spoiler

Especially the initial resurrection because up until then Bobby G was in permanent Stasis because his wound got infected with turbo sepsis or something so he had to be frozen in time or it 100% would kill him.

 

The fact he lives and breathes in the Materium proves that Yvraine killed and Rezzed him.

 

ETA, forgot to mention

Spoiler

She quite literally stabs him with the Cronesword iirc.

 

Edited December 9 by Indy Techwisp

[Tacitus]

17 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

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I offer up "Voice of God" and point out that GW themselves say they were both actual deaths.

 

For a more in universe look tho, Yvraine and Cawl both clear eachother of faking it because Guilliman coming back to life needed them both to do their jobs perfectly (Yvraine doing the stab right to perform the Ynnari resurrection ritual and Cawl getting Bobby G into the suit before the wound that put him in stasis initially could kick back in again).

 

And for the latter Big E, the literal Voice of God in this case, confirms he brought G-Man back to life before igniting Nurgle's House.

We can confirm Big E isn't lying here because he uses the same power to take some random saint-girl's body for a spin earlier in the Book.

 

Also, besides all that, what narrative purpose is there for Guilliman only thinking he died at some point?

What does that actually do for the story?

 

There's real narrative weight put behind the aforementioned incidents.

  Hide contents

Especially the initial resurrection because up until then Bobby G was in permanent Stasis because his wound got infected with turbo sepsis or something so he had to be frozen in time or it 100% would kill him.

 

The fact he lives and breathes in the Materium proves that Yvraine killed and Rezzed him.

 

ETA, forgot to mention

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She quite literally stabs him with the Cronesword iirc.

 

Its a lot easier to RetCon if the Con is subjective.  

 

What does it do?  Today, nothing.  Next Summer when they recycle the Truthsayers of Albion into 40K?  It does quite a bit if they want to turn this into a plot twist and he was saved by Dural Durak pretending to be the Emperor, while allowing Yvraine, and Cawl to take the credit. 

[Indy Techwisp]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Its a lot easier to RetCon if the Con is subjective.  

 

What does it do?  Today, nothing.  Next Summer when they recycle the Truthsayers of Albion into 40K?  It does quite a bit if they want to turn this into a plot twist and he was saved by Dural Durak pretending to be the Emperor, while allowing Yvraine, and Cawl to take the credit. 

 

Whatever "Con" they would be trying to retcon with that would be lost under the wave of anger from people that GW pretty much threw Guilliman's entire story out the window for no reason.

Edited December 10 by Indy Techwisp

[Tacitus]

On 12/10/2024 at 5:12 AM, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Whatever "Con" they would be trying to retcon with that would be lost under the wave of anger from people that GW pretty much threw Guilliman's entire story out the window for no reason.

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