(Theory) Guilliman is Dead

[Xenith]

On 3/9/2025 at 2:06 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yep, a sunny day isn’t special without clouds.

 

A sunny day isn't special if every day is sunny. It's special and loed precisely because other days are cloudy.

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Can't really criticise this when Celestine has always existed in the lore, and when the villains are immortal, cartoon bad-guys that are banished and then return time after time.

 

Yes I can. Celestine was an exception, the Daemons operate as they should.

 

Turning the Emperor into a Chaos God, and Rob into essentially a Daemon Primarch just shifts the tone, shifts from setting to story, and is just representative of the mistakes GW has been making since 8th.

 

Terrible lore, and GW just continues to shrink the setting.

[Orange Knight]

10 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Yes I can. Celestine was an exception, the Daemons operate as they should.

 

Turning the Emperor into a Chaos God, and Rob into essentially a Daemon Primarch just shifts the tone, shifts from setting to story, and is just representative of the mistakes GW has been making since 8th.

 

Terrible lore, and GW just continues to shrink the setting.

 

In your opinion. And you're entitled to that.

 

In my opinion, the Dark Imperium trilogy was one of the most enjoyable and consequential Black Library series in a long time.

 

As for the Emperor being something akin to a Chaos God - this concept is decades old at this point, as are the other ideas about the starchild, the tree of life, etc etc. 

 

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

In my opinion, the Dark Imperium trilogy was one of the most enjoyable and consequential Black Library series in a long time.

 

Right, and you can continue to hold that opinion while the setting degrades further thanks to it.

 

Hopefully ADB can right the ship and prevent 40K being perverted into something unrecognizable, but I'm afraid the Amazon deal will just make it worse.

[Karhedron]

4 hours ago, Scribe said:

Right, and you can continue to hold that opinion while the setting degrades further thanks to it.

 

I disagree. 8th edition got me interested in 40K lore again after over a decade of stagnation. All the way through 2nd and 3rd editions, there was a feeling that the narrative was advancing. This reached a peak with the 13th Black Crusade. GW promised that the outcome of that global campaign would decide the direction of the lore going forwards leading to either a resurgent Imperium or a major victory for Chaos.

 

Instead they froze the story for over 10 years. This coincided with my waning interest in 40K. It wasn't until the Gathering Storm that my interest in the lore revived. I was also glad that 7th edition went away with its invisible deathstars and broken Formations. Not saying 8th-10th has been perfection as the introduction of the Primaris marines felt very rushed but overall it was a definite improvement over what came before.

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

I disagree.

 

That's cool, I continue to see it as trash updates ruining what was a perfect setting.

 

A setting for our games, our stories, not a small set of characters used to push dramatically overpriced character models.

[Orange Knight]

On 3/13/2025 at 10:12 PM, Scribe said:

 

That's cool, I continue to see it as trash updates ruining what was a perfect setting.

 

A setting for our games, our stories, not a small set of characters used to push dramatically overpriced character models.

 

The setting hasn't changed.

 

It has always been built around epic heroes of legend. It's Guilliman and the Lion now.

 

Before them it was Calgar, Grimnar and Dante. In practice nothing has changed. If Guilliman didn't stop a massive chaos invasion, than Calgar would have done it in his place - and he has done so more than once.

 

There were no loyalist Primarchs around when Draigo carved his name into Mortarion's heart. Remember that bit of lore? The feats of the epic heroes in the setting have always been wholly inconsistent anyway.

[Scribe]

55 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

There were no loyalist Primarchs around when Draigo carved his name into Mortarion's heart. Remember that bit of lore?

 

Yeah I remember it being laughably bad, and derided for years on end as part of the Matt Ward legacy.

[Rain]

Really both the HH novel series, and the return of loyalist primarchs has done serious narrative and thematic damage to the setting, but they’ve made GW heaps of cash, and money talks louder than grognards like me. What made the 40k setting unique from most other sci fi settings was the grimdark. This doesn’t mean that “good things can never happen” and it never did.

 

What it did mean was that the universe of “today” was a fallen and decaying era, which has become a perversion of a mythical golden age. Said golden age is mostly forgotten, and the only ones that were actually there to see it are the semi-psychotic traitors who were chiefly responsible for its end.

 

It was grimdark not only because the golden age ended, but because it was effectively forgotten and so truly lost, to the point that it might as well not have existed. Loyalist chapters carrying on ancient traditions were doing their best, but it was clear that they were a copy of a copy of a copy of the Legions of old, which were shrouded in mystery and myth. The great heroes of old were all missing or dead, leaving it to “your dudes” to do what they can to rage for/against the dying of the light.

 

It is what it is. I’m genuinely happy for those that enjoy the new lore. I do my best not to begrudge others their enjoyment, but it’s not for me.

Edited March 15 by Rain

[Orange Knight]

Read "Watchers of the Throne" and "the Dark City."

There's no risk of hope and joy any time soon.

 

I feel the most vocal critics are basing their criticism on some lore snippets in a codex or from YouTube videos and viral memes.

 

As for the erasure of the myth and mysticism of the setting - I actually agree with that, although it's a seperate issue entirely. The Horus Heresy and the Siege series went into way too much detail on way too many sacred topics and completely took away any wonder.

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

the Dark City

 

Sure, great book, part of a great trilogy. You know what isnt touched on in any practically any way at all?

 

Rob/Lion

Cawl

Primaris

 

It could essentially have been written from before 8th, outside of a single plot device.

 

And its one of the what, top 3 trilogies in all of Black Library canon? Interesting.

 

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I feel the most vocal critics are basing their criticism on some lore snippets in a codex or from YouTube videos and viral memes.

 

No. Its from meme novels such as Godblight.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Sure, great book, part of a great trilogy. You know what isnt touched on in any practically any way at all?

 

Rob/Lion

Cawl

Primaris

 

It could essentially have been written from before 8th, outside of a single plot device.

 

And its one of the what, top 3 trilogies in all of Black Library canon? Interesting.

 

 

No. Its from meme novels such as Godblight.

The Godblight series wasn't too bad.  A whole lot of did he or didn't he that GW likes to play with.  The book I love to hate is Lion, Son of the Forest.  Most of the book is fairly well written, but every time I really got chugging along during the read, it felt like there was a catalog entry insert to explain where and how the Lion got his new Wargear that keeps you from using his 30K model in 40K or vice versa. 

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

The argument that the setting is getting less grim has a ton of evidence to back it up. A lot of examples have already been given, but I'll toss in one more that bothered me in the most recent campaign book.

 

Celestine is facing off with World Claimer, and instead of giving Chaos the win and letting him slay her and accomplish his mission, they have her win the fight then jet off to do more angel stuff elsewhere. This is in direct contrast to them having the Lion kill Angron. Both are immortals that will come back if you beat them, and GW is willing to use that plot device to give the good guys the win, but not the bad. And I do say Good Guys, because despite all the awefulness of the Imperium, they are sanitizing it bit by bit to make them actual heroes, not bloody-handed examples of the Imperium's might. They've been doing it since well before 8th edition, the only difference is more people used to laugh at and ignore it. Now it's most of what we get.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Marshal Valkenhayn said:

the Lion kill Angron. Both are immortals that will come back if you beat them,

Where did they say the Lion was a perpetual?  As far as I know, that's only an aspect of Vulkan (and the Daemon Primarchs who are only normal killed not super killed), not all Primarchs had that. 

[Rain]

25 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Where did they say the Lion was a perpetual?  As far as I know, that's only an aspect of Vulkan (and the Daemon Primarchs who are only normal killed not super killed), not all Primarchs had that. 

He means that Celestine and Angron are both immortal, but GW didn’t let Worldclaimer “kill” Celestine, but had the Lion “kill” Angron.

 

Khârn has killed Celestine, though. Khârn is the real deal; Jason Voorhees in space. Angron is just there to get beaten by other characters to show how great they are.

Edited March 16 by Rain

[Orange Knight]

On 3/15/2025 at 8:47 PM, Scribe said:

 

Sure, great book, part of a great trilogy. You know what isnt touched on in any practically any way at all?

 

Rob/Lion

Cawl

Primaris

 

 

 

Here is the beauty of that novel:

 

It touches on the most vital aspects of the Imperium - the God Emperor and the Golden Throne. It paints a dire picture, a true existential threat for Humanity.

 

And you know all these great heroes you complain about; Guilliman, the Lion, Cawl?

 

 

They can do nothing about it.

Edited March 19 by Orange Knight

[Scribe]

6 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Here is the beauty of that novel:

 

It touches on the most vital aspects of the Imperium - the God Emperor and the Golden Throne. It paints a dire picture, a true existential threat for Humanity.

 

And you know all these great heroes you complain about; Guilliman, the Lion, Cawl?

 

 

They can do nothing about it.

 

Exactly, they are completely unnecessary and in fact are detrimental to the setting. 

[Orange Knight]

33 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Exactly, they are completely unnecessary and in fact are detrimental to the setting. 

 

No, they are a part of the setting just like everything else.

 

They won't be able to change the outcome of things. The universe is too big, even for a Primarch.

 

Everything has ramped up but the old status quo remains. The Primaris exist but half the Imperium is lost. Guilliman is back but Chaos is ascendant.

The Imperium is teetering on a slow annihilation just as they did in 3rd, 4th or 5th edition.