What if SW and RG had stayed on Terra

[b1soul]

After taking heavy losses on Prospero and then getting semi-crippled at Alaxxes, Russ and the VIth made it back to Terra but chose to run off to confront Horus with the Spear. Corax and the XIXth were shattered at Isstvan [though perhaps not as badly as the Sallies and IH were?], and Corax also made it back to Terra but chose to leave with the Raptor gene-tech and take the fight to Horus.

 

I was never a fan of Russ incapacitating Horus with a magical Spear. That's already bad enough, but then holding back the coup de grace because...feelings?? Doubly stupid imo. Raptor gene-tech was also a major :cuss:. The Heresy would be a really good time for the Emp and Malcador to activate an upgraded Astartes program, never mind why the they would choose to sit on this amazing tech for presumably decades or more??

 

So let's pretend Russ and Corax and their legions chose to stay on Terra or at least not far from Sol to defend the Imperial core...or they did strike out on their own to inflict damage against certain Traitor elements, but ensured they were able to return to Terra before any full-scale Traitor invasion of Sol.

 

How do you see the Solar War and Siege of Terra going differently?

[Brother Kraskor]

I'm not very knowledegable when it comes to timelines, but would this have meant Chaos arriving at Terra much sooner and therefore other loyalist legions that were canonically present wouldn't have made it in time?

Edited September 28 by Brother Kraskor

[INKS]

Russ was initially on Terra. He somehow made it back after the Battle of Prospero and the Alpha Legion beating the heck out of him. He was there when Jaghatai arrived. He then take off on a quest to kill Horus himself. His plan was to ambush the Vengeful Spirit, board it and fight his way to Horus and stab Horus with his spear. It worked, kind of, but Leman Russ was seriously injured and his sons retreated to a planet. He is rescued by Corvus Corax and the remnants of the Raven Guard. After that, he kind of disappears. The next time he's mentioned is when Roboute sends a message to Sanguinius, telling him that both Russ and the Lion are coming with him to Terra's relief.

Corvus Corax is a bigger mystery. After Istvaan, Corvus arrives on Terra. He gets the genetech information from the Emperor and takes off for Deliverance. Alpha Legion causes shenanigans on Deliverance, messing up Corvus' plan to rebuild his legion, so he takes off to attack the Impossible Fortress. He goes on to do sneak attacks against the traitors on various planets (as detailed in the Corax anthology). He rescues the remnants of Space Wolves and Leman Russ and, then, disappears again. We haven't heard from him since. We know that, at some point, he returns to Deliverance to mope for a year, but I cannot find any reference to his activities after his rescue of Russ.

 

I think they briefly expanded on Corax’s role on the White Dwarf artfile about the Barabarus campain. He regroups with the the Lion and Russ. While those two plan to get to terra, corax says he can do more good destroying tratior supply lines and occupying their rear guard.

The lion calls corax a coward and implies he is a traitor, Russ stands up for Corax (which he has done before, protecting him from Horus and Perterabo during the great crusade) and thats that

 

I am not sure how much Impact Corax would have had. There were some numbers out there that he left Istavaan with like 5k marines left of the 80k he dropped with. So it's not clear how many he had. I think this is why he was playing games at the supply line because there isn't much else he could have done with his number. And lets face it, he isn't beating Horus 1 v 1. 

 

Russ however is a shame. Because he could have taken Horus - maybe - and his wolves would have made a HUGE difference in the battle had he not run off and got caught with his pants down so to speak. End of the day, the UM would have made the largest impact and this is why Gulliman was on the other side of the galaxy. The UM just had SO MANY in numbers is was crazy. You would think that many of them would have been deployed better, but guess not.

Edited September 28 by INKS

[MARK0SIAN]

In terms of the Solar war I don’t think either or even both legions would’ve made much difference. The size of the fleet Horus brought to Terra would’ve still massively outnumbered the defenders, even with two additional Legion Fleets. Add in the fact that Dorn’s plan was to preserve as many Astartes as possible for the defence of Terra itself it’s unlikely they would’ve made a huge difference. They might have had some successes and maybe held the traitors up for another day or two but unless they’d found a way to disrupt the ritual that enabled the arrival of Horus’ main strength then any impact would’ve been negligible.

 

The siege itself though would’ve probably been at least somewhat different. The Wolves for example could’ve allowed Dorn to mount a proper defence of the Eternity Wall Spaceport instead of having to sacrifice it for the Saturnine gambit. This would’ve at least had an impact on traitor reinforcements. They could’ve also been kept as a counterattacking force. The White Scars achieved a fairly substantive victory with their retaking of lions gate. It’s feasible the space wolves could’ve done something similar. 
 

As for the Raven Guard, their diminished numbers meant whilst they probably couldn’t have counterattacked in the same way, they would’ve had plenty of opportunities to do things that played more to their strengths. For example, it’s not unfeasible that Corax and his Legion could’ve carried out a successful assassination of Perturabo, who was still mortal (or at least as far as a Primarch can be considered mortal), once he made planetfall. That would’ve made a significant difference to the siege. 
 

Even if neither Legion did anything particularly epic during the siege, their numbers would’ve ensured the Loyalists would’ve held out for longer. Although it seems debatable that Guilliman would’ve been able to penetrate the Warp Haze that Horus conjured in the final stage of the siege even if he had arrived in time so holding out for longer may not have made much overall difference.

[calgar101]

Been a while since I read some of the earlier books so my information could be a little off.

If when Corax arrives at Terra after Istvaan 5 to get the knowledge to rebuild his legion, instead of leaving he decides to stay, could it be possible the Raptor programme is done on Terra and possibly more successful as better facilities there?

 

Maybe the Raven Guard manage to build up to say 10-15k? A third of which are 'improved' Astartes. Any extra Space Marines on Terra will make some difference, tipping battles here and there in the loyalists favour. I could see Corax form elite strike teams to take out traitor leadership and disrupt their assaults. Dorns ultimate goal was to buy time for the Vengeance fleet to arrive and relieve the siege. Ultimately that fleet would not have pierced the warp in my view but an extra Primarch and Astartes will help that.

 

I don't think Corax would be able to assassinate Perturabo or defeat him in a 1v1 but the Raven Lord would fight smart and target his leadership. I could see Corax helping Jaghatai take back the space port too.

 

As for Russ, I don't know how much of his legion was left after the Razing of Prospero and his missions after that, but Russ had a decent sized force. Again they'd be welcome on Terra in the bid to buy time for loyalists. Russ with his spear wounded Horus, perhaps he would finish a traitor Primarch early on In the siege? Leman and his Wolves defending a space port would be a huge thorn for thr traitors in my view, probably acting similar to the White Scars in striking out.

 

In my view 2 extra Primarchs and even minimal legion forces would be a boost for the defenders and be a massive force multiplier. Especially if Corax and Russ sent some forces out to Harry the traitor advance, alongside the Blackshield/Shattered Legion force.

[Karhedron]

 

If when Corax arrives at Terra after Istvaan 5 to get the knowledge to rebuild his legion, instead of leaving he decides to stay, could it be possible the Raptor programme is done on Terra and possibly more successful as better facilities there?

 

The AL had already infiltrated the RG by the time they arrived at Terra. I am not sure that conducting the Raptor programme there would have made any difference. Perhaps it would  have been harder for Omegon to contact the infiltrators and sabotage the experiment but I suspect they would have found a way. Also, presumably any recruits would have been taken from Terran stock meaning that the RG would have been competing with the IFs for new recruits.

 

If the Raptor programme had been successful and avoided traitor sabotage, having it based on Terra could have made a difference. Imagine turning every young male on Terra into a full Astartes in a matter of weeks. That could have given the Loyalists a big advtange.

 

 

As for Russ, I don't know how much of his legion was left after the Razing of Prospero and his missions after that, but Russ had a decent sized force.

 

I believe the Wolves numbered around 40,000 after the Burning of Prospero and the battle of the Alaxxes Nebula. As noted above, had they been present, Dorn might not have had to sacrifice the Eternity Wall Spaceport. Russ gambled that a decapitation strike against Horus could potentially stop the traitors reaching Terra at all. He had the right idea but botched the execution.

[calgar101]

My line of thinking of the Raptor programme on Terra is one access to more and better facilities, e.g the Terran gene works, specialists who stayed on Terra, any data from the Selenars. I think that would help to make it more of a 'success ' but also if Corax never left Terra with the data, there is more chance the AL scheme gets caught? 

 

The recruitment pool on Terra might be larger than Deliverance so could allow the RG to increase their size quicker and accommodate the other loyalists recruitment and having their own Raptors too? 

 

40k Wolves on Terra led by their Primarch would be a tough stone to move, I  could see them holding a space port for a while.

[Karhedron]

Are there any figures given for how many Imperial Fists there were at the start of the Siege? We know Dorn had been busy recruiting but it would be interesting to know how many there were. 

[calgar101]

I don't have any numbers/sources to hand but I got the impression they were almost 'full strength '. 

[INKS]

 

Are there any figures given for how many Imperial Fists there were at the start of the Siege? We know Dorn had been busy recruiting but it would be interesting to know how many there were. 

2nd largest after the UM I think. but not solid numbers

[calgar101]

In the HH Book Extermination under the heading War Disposition, it says;

"the strength of the Imperial Fists was never in its numbers. Though not small, their tally of numbers during the Great Crusade, rarely rose above 100,000".

 

Then follows on;

 

"At the time of their withdrawal to Terra, the Legion's records show that the Temple held the Oaths of 98,356 living warriors".

 

It then mentions how that can't be counted as 100% accurate. 

 

They had over 1500 naval ships and many more bonded by Oaths and fealty.

 

Under the Battle of Phall, it says Dorn divided his legion and fleet, part to remain on Terra, part to be sent to strike Horus and the traitors at Istvaan V. He sent roughly a third of his warriors and ships as part of the Retribution fleet.

 

I roughly paraphrased that. So we know the Fists suffered in the withdrawal from Phall, Polux and some Fists made it to Ultramar, I don't know if any made it back to Terra. Let's just say the Imperial Fists were 100k strong, 33k went go Phall and none of those returned to Terra (dying or warp travel issues). 

There is what another 7 years from the Battle of Phall until the siege? Beta Garmon is the only other real battle the Imperial Fists take part in? I'm not sure on what size force Dorn sent there and their casualties, so this is a lot of guess work. 

I'd say by the time Beta Garmon happens the Imperial Fists are anywhere between 100-150k Astartes in Terra and same numbers for when the siege begins.

 

If any one has better numbers, that would be great. I've read the Siege series several times but don't own the books and can't remember Imperial Fists numbers being mentioned. 

[b1soul]

 

I believe the Wolves numbered around 40,000 after the Burning of Prospero and the battle of the Alaxxes Nebula.

 

@Karhedron, looking this up on Lexicanum, the SW arrived on Prospero with around 70K Astartes and lost around 20K, so roughly a 30% loss rate (not bad considering how the TSons fared, though of course the odds were pretty stacked against them)

 

So the SW left Prospero with roughly 50K...and then got mauled very badly at Alaxxes, but there are no numbers, I think. I did get the strong impression from Wraight's Wolf King novella that the SW actually took greater losses at Alaxxes than that Prospero, as the former was a very effective fleet ambush against a wounded VIth...whereas on Prospero, the SoS and Custodes (and Magnus' shenanigans) really helped the SW surprise and break the Prosperine defence.

 

So I wouldn't be surprised if the SW were significantly fewer than 40K post-Alaxxes, but even an extra 30K marines and primarch would have made a big difference on Terra. Also, while Fenrisians are generally more compatible with SW geneseed, I'm sure they could have leveraged numbers and tech on Terra to pump out a decent number of Terran SW to boost the VIth.

 

[Djangomatic82]

I suspect the only Primarch that could have had a real significant impact on the heresies out come would have been Ferrus Manus, had he survived.

Even if he didn't have his legion, having someone able to take on the full burden and focus of waging total galactic war against Horus, no offense to Dorn or the others, would have been the best alternative.

[calgar101]

@b1soul I can't find exact figures for the Battle of Alaxxes and Russ assault on the Vengeful Spirit but they suffered heavy casualties definitely. 

 

From reading Book 7 Inferno, Russ takes 73,200 Space Wolves to Prospero. 25,000 Space Wolves are killed and several thousand more are missing. Let's say that's 5,000? So the Wolves lose 30k Astartes.

It also says 20-25k Space Wolves didn't make it to Prospero. So after the assault we have say 60-65k left. Those who never made it to Prospero would not have been ambushed at Alaxxes? 

At Alaxxes you'd have just over 40k, they take a mauling, then at some point reach Terra? Before Russ goes for the Vengeful Spirit he has time to recommend all of his legion, let's say that's around the 40k mark and then the Wolves suffer another big loss on their assault of Horus's fleet.

I would say after that, Leman Russ leads between 10-20k Space Wolves but probably closer to 10k. 

I saw a post online with a summary of Wolfsbane, the poster said the Wolves suffered 4/5th casualties. Sounds right to me. 

If Russ never went for Horus and remained on Terra he would have had anywhere between 40-60k Space Wolves  to defend say the Lions Gate space port.

 

 

[Xenith]

Assuming Corax's activities didn't slow down the traitors, and the Wolves fighting the AL at Alaxxes was a ruse to keep them away from terra again, and didn't have an effect on the main traitor forces:

 

Having those two on the ground at the siege would have swung it I think, based on the BL novels, not by what would be real. In the books, the primarchs were the force multiplers, the queens on the board and having the biggest impact. Imagine if Corax had been at Lions gate and had been ighting in those coridoors alongside the fists? I don't think the IW would have made the ground they did, ot Corax would have gone rogue and blown the spaceport, denying the traitors the ability to safely land mortis on the surface (arguably what dorn should have done).

 

Angron v Sanguinius and Russ becomes less of an even match and Anron dies fast. 

Mortarion v Khan and Corax sees corax and Khan come back alive.

 

If you sent russ into the webway, he could have sniffed out magnus faster than Vulkan did and maybe the telaesthetic wards would have lasted longer? Or he would have just died?

 

You suddenly have 5 primarchs teleporting to the vengeful spirit. Russ's plot armour is to great that he would undoubtedly have seen through Horus's plot and emerged unscathed

Edited October 8 by Xenith

[calgar101]

Ultimately the Siege comes down to the Emperor v Horus/Chaos. That can't be avoided or changed. Even if Corax and Russ were on Terra and the Khan wasn't near death from his duel with Mortarion, having 5 Primarchs join the Anabasis assault wouldn't change much. 

Corax, Jagahtai and Russ would have some trap set for them by Chaos. 

Potentially if Russ has the Spear with him, that could give him an edge to get through the trap faster? But I don't see him hurting Horus at this point, Chaos is too powerful for that. Maybe and this is a stretch a different Primarch duels Horus instead of Sanguinius and they are killed? Or Horus kills Russ then Sanguinius? All of which has an impact post siege.

 

Russ going in to the Web way to hunt Magnus, with or without Vulkan to me is a bad idea. If Russ finds Daemon Magnus, he will die, I think Magnus would use his powers without care and Russ would not survive it. Vulkan was chosen for this for a few reasons, one of which is his perpetual side. Any Primarch who goes to aide Vulkan would risk a death and their absence from the surface would be felt.

 

Having 5 loyalist Primarchs is a bonus, as you mentioned in your post @Xenith they are a force multiplier. Having Corax and Russ visible amongst the loyalists on the Walls would definitely boost morale. 

 

Key locations such as Lions Port defended by around 30k Space Wolves would bleed the Iron Warriors more, if backed by the Raven Guard then Perturabo would have to commit even more force there. Potentially another Primarch duel and Perturabo is killed? Or Corax or Russ is killed? Again big impact with an even bigger impact post siege.

 

I like to think of Corax had decided to rebuild on Terra to stand on the walls he would still have sent a force to Deliverance to also rebuild and to try slow the traitors down. 

Perhaps Branne is still made Master of Recruits and to build the Raptors on their home world to strike the traitors from there? Whilst Corax using resources from Terra rebuilds the legion to stand on the Walls?

 

I definitely think having the Raven Guard and Space Wolves with their Primarchs makes a tactical change on the Siege but largely the outcomes are still the same.

 

[Karhedron]

 

I definitely think having the Raven Guard and Space Wolves with their Primarchs makes a tactical change on the Siege but largely the outcomes are still the same.

 

I think that the space ports are key to the Siege. With an extra Legion, the Lion's Gate could probably have been held. With a second extra Legion, Dorn would not have needed to sacrifice the Eternity Gate Spaceport to pull off the Saturnine gambit.

 

The follow-on implications of this are significant. Without the spaceports, the Traitors have no way to bring their biggest assets down from orbit, particularly the Titans. Without Legio Mortis, Mercury wall would not have fallen. Furthermore, any significant massing of traitor forces beyond the walls would have been easy prey for the Loyalist TItans who would have been able to operate free of major threats.

 

What does this mean for the Siege? The traitors were already in a hurry because of the fear that the power of Chaos would burn Horus out before the Palace fell. If the traitors fail to break the wall as they did in Mortis, that fear would likely come true. Remember it was Horus who personally commanded the Titans be used to bring down the wall. With the inner Palace secure, the Loyalists could simply wait for Horus to die and Guilliman to arrive with the cavalry. 

 

The traitors were already starting to fragment, even before the end of the Siege. Both Fulgrim and Perturabo left after the events of Saturnine. If Horus had died before the walls fell, there would have been no one to hold the traitors together and no one to summon the waves of daemons that were key to undermining the defences from within.

 

If Russ and Corax had both been on Terra with moderate-sized forces, the whole second half of the Siege could have gone completely differently.

[calgar101]

I agree/see the logic in what you say, with the space ports remaining in loyalist hands, Mortis could still land further out? Outside of the palace zone and have a Kong walk? Obviously the wall guns would take a toll but there's enough warp juice to reanimate them? 

 

I do wonder if 2 extra Primarchs and say 40k Astartes is enough to cause enough of a delay to have Horus suffer the burn out?

 

I'd love to read some fan fiction on Corax and/or Russ holding the space port.

Maybe the Saturnine Gambit is still pulled off but Corax and some hand picked Raven Guard join it? Abaddon gets punked.

[b1soul]

@calgar101, I think that's right...so 40K SW depart Prospero and get mauled by the AL fleet. Let's say that leaves them with 20K (since Alaxxes was portrayed as a disaster for the post-Prospero SW fleet) and if we assume they later combine with the 20K SW who didn't join the Prospero campaign and all head to Terra, and then on Terra they make an effort to recuit Terrans: yeah, you'd probably have maybe even 60K SW by the start of the SoT. If RG had tried to reconstitute on Terra (and their geneseed being more high-yield/aspirant-friendly than the Canix Helix), you might have more than 20K RG on Terra by the start of the SoT (ignoring the Raptor project as bad Thorpian fanfiction).

 

How big was the RG after Istvaan...like 5K maybe? Regardless, I think they could have pumped out a lot of marines on Terra.

 

Adding two combat-oriented primarchs and many tens of thousands of loyalist marines perhaps would have delayed the fall of the Palace enough for the Vengeance Fleet to arrive first.

 

[calgar101]

For the SW I would say between 50-60k is a sound estimate. 

For the Raven Guard, I think their numbers after the Drop Site Massacre are more than 5k. Book 3 Extermination mentions that after the Drop Site Massacre, Corax has no more than 4,000 Raven Guard under his direct command. There were several chapters of Raven Guard attached to various distant Crusade fleets and scattered garrison forces too, all mostly made up of Terrans. 

Before departing for Isstvan V, Corax ordered 1000 Raven Guard to Deliverance to guard it. 

I'm not sure what size a Raven Guard chapter is, Guilliman based his 1000 strong chapter off expensive he learned from Corax but I feel this may be too big.

For me adding all the distant Raven Guard forces together, id say it's between 7-10k strong.

The introduction of the Raptor programme isn't entirely new lore for the Raven Guard. In the early days of IA in White Dwarf, acceleration of Astartes creation is mentioned. Corax goes back to Deliverance to rebuild his legion quickly, there's just no names given or details. They are called the Weregeld by the Space Wolves in sympathy to the monsters created.

Corax still probably would want to rebuild his legion as quickly as possible and I don't think him staying on Terra changes that, he still gets help via the Emperor, just the Alpha Legion may not be able to mess things up as much. 

 

A little interesting bit I read in Extermination is Corax and Perturabo almost come to blows in the Gate 42 assault. That would be some nice foreshadowing for them facing off during the Siege.

[Aarik]

I think it would come down to how much the wolves and raven guard slowed down Horus getting to Terra.  IIRC, there was a line in one of TEATD books about how during the traitors' retreat from Terra after the emperor killed horus, if there had been a third (?) more loyalist marines who survived at that point, that would have been enough to basically completely run the traitors down and slaughter them in conjunction with the arriving loyalists.  That makes me think that the balance of power, when combined with guilleman et al arriving, was such that the SW and RG being present could have turned the tide.   But that relies on the timing of the traitor and loyalist fleets still remaining the same

[calgar101]

Yeah that's a good point. For me, if Corax and Russ are on Terra with say 50k Wolves and 20k Raven Guard, that won't prevent the duel of Horus and the Emperor.

However they could change certain things that impact more for after the siege.

 

Maybe Perturabo is killed or becomes a Daemon Primarch to stave off being killed but is banished. Perhaps Corax or Russ fall in the siege? Certain traitor characters die, which could change their retreat or as you mentioned @Aarik having more forces to run the traitors down post duel.

 

One thing I thought about, the Hollow Mountain was left defence. What if Russ and the Wolves guard it, keeping the beacon lit for Guilliman and the Lion.

Corax could defend the Lions gate from Perturabo and the pair have their duel, continuing their argument from Gate 42.

 

[Xenith]

 

Ultimately the Siege comes down to the Emperor v Horus/Chaos. That can't be avoided or changed. Even if Corax and Russ were on Terra and the Khan wasn't near death from his duel with Mortarion, having 5 Primarchs join the Anabasis assault wouldn't change much. 

 

That's the thing though, the Anabasis was the last ditch attempt because they knew they had lost, and didn't know relief was coming. If the ground war had gone better, if they hadn't managed to land mortis so rapidly, then they wouldn't have felt the need for the final assault. 

[calgar101]

The traitors had orbital superiority though, so even without the space ports Mortis could be landed just further out and orbital strikes could counter any attempts to stop that.

Even with 2 additional Primarchs and anywhere between 50-70k extra Astartes, is that enough to delay the traitors enough? 

Say the Vengeance fleet arrives but Horus is still alive, we can see from TEATD 3 that the warp has flooded the Sol system and there would be no way it would get to Terra.

Possibly having 2 more brothers to prove his mettle against, may keep Perturabo in the field longer? 

 

This is just my belief but it broadly ends the same way but with 2 Primarchs and extra forces on Terra the counter attack on the traitors is more fierce and a lot less escape.

[Karhedron]

 

The traitors had orbital superiority though, so even without the space ports Mortis could be landed just further out and orbital strikes could counter any attempts to stop that.

Even with 2 additional Primarchs and anywhere between 50-70k extra Astartes, is that enough to delay the traitors enough?

 

This is something that is unclear. The way Dorn talked about, there was no other way of bringing the Titans down. Maybe this is a loophole in the plot to emphasize the importance of the space ports. Maybe there were no suitable landing sites for the coffin ships close enough to the Palace to reach it in reasonable time. What you are saying sounds sensible but if it were case, why would both sides put so much emphasis on the ports?