What if SW and RG had stayed on Terra

[b1soul]

After taking heavy losses on Prospero and then getting semi-crippled at Alaxxes, Russ and the VIth made it back to Terra but chose to run off to confront Horus with the Spear. Corax and the XIXth were shattered at Isstvan [though perhaps not as badly as the Sallies and IH were?], and Corax also made it back to Terra but chose to leave with the Raptor gene-tech and take the fight to Horus.

 

I was never a fan of Russ incapacitating Horus with a magical Spear. That's already bad enough, but then holding back the coup de grace because...feelings?? Doubly stupid imo. Raptor gene-tech was also a major :cuss:. The Heresy would be a really good time for the Emp and Malcador to activate an upgraded Astartes program, never mind why the they would choose to sit on this amazing tech for presumably decades or more??

 

So let's pretend Russ and Corax and their legions chose to stay on Terra or at least not far from Sol to defend the Imperial core...or they did strike out on their own to inflict damage against certain Traitor elements, but ensured they were able to return to Terra before any full-scale Traitor invasion of Sol.

 

How do you see the Solar War and Siege of Terra going differently?

[Brother Kraskor]

I'm not very knowledegable when it comes to timelines, but would this have meant Chaos arriving at Terra much sooner and therefore other loyalist legions that were canonically present wouldn't have made it in time?

Edited Saturday at 01:41 PM by Brother Kraskor

[INKS]

Russ was initially on Terra. He somehow made it back after the Battle of Prospero and the Alpha Legion beating the heck out of him. He was there when Jaghatai arrived. He then take off on a quest to kill Horus himself. His plan was to ambush the Vengeful Spirit, board it and fight his way to Horus and stab Horus with his spear. It worked, kind of, but Leman Russ was seriously injured and his sons retreated to a planet. He is rescued by Corvus Corax and the remnants of the Raven Guard. After that, he kind of disappears. The next time he's mentioned is when Roboute sends a message to Sanguinius, telling him that both Russ and the Lion are coming with him to Terra's relief.

Corvus Corax is a bigger mystery. After Istvaan, Corvus arrives on Terra. He gets the genetech information from the Emperor and takes off for Deliverance. Alpha Legion causes shenanigans on Deliverance, messing up Corvus' plan to rebuild his legion, so he takes off to attack the Impossible Fortress. He goes on to do sneak attacks against the traitors on various planets (as detailed in the Corax anthology). He rescues the remnants of Space Wolves and Leman Russ and, then, disappears again. We haven't heard from him since. We know that, at some point, he returns to Deliverance to mope for a year, but I cannot find any reference to his activities after his rescue of Russ.

 

I think they briefly expanded on Corax’s role on the White Dwarf artfile about the Barabarus campain. He regroups with the the Lion and Russ. While those two plan to get to terra, corax says he can do more good destroying tratior supply lines and occupying their rear guard.

The lion calls corax a coward and implies he is a traitor, Russ stands up for Corax (which he has done before, protecting him from Horus and Perterabo during the great crusade) and thats that

 

I am not sure how much Impact Corax would have had. There were some numbers out there that he left Istavaan with like 5k marines left of the 80k he dropped with. So it's not clear how many he had. I think this is why he was playing games at the supply line because there isn't much else he could have done with his number. And lets face it, he isn't beating Horus 1 v 1. 

 

Russ however is a shame. Because he could have taken Horus - maybe - and his wolves would have made a HUGE difference in the battle had he not run off and got caught with his pants down so to speak. End of the day, the UM would have made the largest impact and this is why Gulliman was on the other side of the galaxy. The UM just had SO MANY in numbers is was crazy. You would think that many of them would have been deployed better, but guess not.

Edited Saturday at 02:35 PM by INKS

[MARK0SIAN]

In terms of the Solar war I don’t think either or even both legions would’ve made much difference. The size of the fleet Horus brought to Terra would’ve still massively outnumbered the defenders, even with two additional Legion Fleets. Add in the fact that Dorn’s plan was to preserve as many Astartes as possible for the defence of Terra itself it’s unlikely they would’ve made a huge difference. They might have had some successes and maybe held the traitors up for another day or two but unless they’d found a way to disrupt the ritual that enabled the arrival of Horus’ main strength then any impact would’ve been negligible.

 

The siege itself though would’ve probably been at least somewhat different. The Wolves for example could’ve allowed Dorn to mount a proper defence of the Eternity Wall Spaceport instead of having to sacrifice it for the Saturnine gambit. This would’ve at least had an impact on traitor reinforcements. They could’ve also been kept as a counterattacking force. The White Scars achieved a fairly substantive victory with their retaking of lions gate. It’s feasible the space wolves could’ve done something similar. 
 

As for the Raven Guard, their diminished numbers meant whilst they probably couldn’t have counterattacked in the same way, they would’ve had plenty of opportunities to do things that played more to their strengths. For example, it’s not unfeasible that Corax and his Legion could’ve carried out a successful assassination of Perturabo, who was still mortal (or at least as far as a Primarch can be considered mortal), once he made planetfall. That would’ve made a significant difference to the siege. 
 

Even if neither Legion did anything particularly epic during the siege, their numbers would’ve ensured the Loyalists would’ve held out for longer. Although it seems debatable that Guilliman would’ve been able to penetrate the Warp Haze that Horus conjured in the final stage of the siege even if he had arrived in time so holding out for longer may not have made much overall difference.

[calgar101]

Been a while since I read some of the earlier books so my information could be a little off.

If when Corax arrives at Terra after Istvaan 5 to get the knowledge to rebuild his legion, instead of leaving he decides to stay, could it be possible the Raptor programme is done on Terra and possibly more successful as better facilities there?

 

Maybe the Raven Guard manage to build up to say 10-15k? A third of which are 'improved' Astartes. Any extra Space Marines on Terra will make some difference, tipping battles here and there in the loyalists favour. I could see Corax form elite strike teams to take out traitor leadership and disrupt their assaults. Dorns ultimate goal was to buy time for the Vengeance fleet to arrive and relieve the siege. Ultimately that fleet would not have pierced the warp in my view but an extra Primarch and Astartes will help that.

 

I don't think Corax would be able to assassinate Perturabo or defeat him in a 1v1 but the Raven Lord would fight smart and target his leadership. I could see Corax helping Jaghatai take back the space port too.

 

As for Russ, I don't know how much of his legion was left after the Razing of Prospero and his missions after that, but Russ had a decent sized force. Again they'd be welcome on Terra in the bid to buy time for loyalists. Russ with his spear wounded Horus, perhaps he would finish a traitor Primarch early on In the siege? Leman and his Wolves defending a space port would be a huge thorn for thr traitors in my view, probably acting similar to the White Scars in striking out.

 

In my view 2 extra Primarchs and even minimal legion forces would be a boost for the defenders and be a massive force multiplier. Especially if Corax and Russ sent some forces out to Harry the traitor advance, alongside the Blackshield/Shattered Legion force.

[Karhedron]

 

If when Corax arrives at Terra after Istvaan 5 to get the knowledge to rebuild his legion, instead of leaving he decides to stay, could it be possible the Raptor programme is done on Terra and possibly more successful as better facilities there?

 

The AL had already infiltrated the RG by the time they arrived at Terra. I am not sure that conducting the Raptor programme there would have made any difference. Perhaps it would  have been harder for Omegon to contact the infiltrators and sabotage the experiment but I suspect they would have found a way. Also, presumably any recruits would have been taken from Terran stock meaning that the RG would have been competing with the IFs for new recruits.

 

If the Raptor programme had been successful and avoided traitor sabotage, having it based on Terra could have made a difference. Imagine turning every young male on Terra into a full Astartes in a matter of weeks. That could have given the Loyalists a big advtange.

 

 

As for Russ, I don't know how much of his legion was left after the Razing of Prospero and his missions after that, but Russ had a decent sized force.

 

I believe the Wolves numbered around 40,000 after the Burning of Prospero and the battle of the Alaxxes Nebula. As noted above, had they been present, Dorn might not have had to sacrifice the Eternity Wall Spaceport. Russ gambled that a decapitation strike against Horus could potentially stop the traitors reaching Terra at all. He had the right idea but botched the execution.

[calgar101]

My line of thinking of the Raptor programme on Terra is one access to more and better facilities, e.g the Terran gene works, specialists who stayed on Terra, any data from the Selenars. I think that would help to make it more of a 'success ' but also if Corax never left Terra with the data, there is more chance the AL scheme gets caught? 

 

The recruitment pool on Terra might be larger than Deliverance so could allow the RG to increase their size quicker and accommodate the other loyalists recruitment and having their own Raptors too? 

 

40k Wolves on Terra led by their Primarch would be a tough stone to move, I  could see them holding a space port for a while.

[Karhedron]

Are there any figures given for how many Imperial Fists there were at the start of the Siege? We know Dorn had been busy recruiting but it would be interesting to know how many there were. 

[calgar101]

I don't have any numbers/sources to hand but I got the impression they were almost 'full strength '. 

[INKS]

 

Are there any figures given for how many Imperial Fists there were at the start of the Siege? We know Dorn had been busy recruiting but it would be interesting to know how many there were. 

2nd largest after the UM I think. but not solid numbers

[calgar101]

In the HH Book Extermination under the heading War Disposition, it says;

"the strength of the Imperial Fists was never in its numbers. Though not small, their tally of numbers during the Great Crusade, rarely rose above 100,000".

 

Then follows on;

 

"At the time of their withdrawal to Terra, the Legion's records show that the Temple held the Oaths of 98,356 living warriors".

 

It then mentions how that can't be counted as 100% accurate. 

 

They had over 1500 naval ships and many more bonded by Oaths and fealty.

 

Under the Battle of Phall, it says Dorn divided his legion and fleet, part to remain on Terra, part to be sent to strike Horus and the traitors at Istvaan V. He sent roughly a third of his warriors and ships as part of the Retribution fleet.

 

I roughly paraphrased that. So we know the Fists suffered in the withdrawal from Phall, Polux and some Fists made it to Ultramar, I don't know if any made it back to Terra. Let's just say the Imperial Fists were 100k strong, 33k went go Phall and none of those returned to Terra (dying or warp travel issues). 

There is what another 7 years from the Battle of Phall until the siege? Beta Garmon is the only other real battle the Imperial Fists take part in? I'm not sure on what size force Dorn sent there and their casualties, so this is a lot of guess work. 

I'd say by the time Beta Garmon happens the Imperial Fists are anywhere between 100-150k Astartes in Terra and same numbers for when the siege begins.

 

If any one has better numbers, that would be great. I've read the Siege series several times but don't own the books and can't remember Imperial Fists numbers being mentioned. 

[b1soul]

 

I believe the Wolves numbered around 40,000 after the Burning of Prospero and the battle of the Alaxxes Nebula.

 

@Karhedron, looking this up on Lexicanum, the SW arrived on Prospero with around 70K Astartes and lost around 20K, so roughly a 30% loss rate (not bad considering how the TSons fared, though of course the odds were pretty stacked against them)

 

So the SW left Prospero with roughly 50K...and then got mauled very badly at Alaxxes, but there are no numbers, I think. I did get the strong impression from Wraight's Wolf King novella that the SW actually took greater losses at Alaxxes than that Prospero, as the former was a very effective fleet ambush against a wounded VIth...whereas on Prospero, the SoS and Custodes (and Magnus' shenanigans) really helped the SW surprise and break the Prosperine defence.

 

So I wouldn't be surprised if the SW were significantly fewer than 40K post-Alaxxes, but even an extra 30K marines and primarch would have made a big difference on Terra. Also, while Fenrisians are generally more compatible with SW geneseed, I'm sure they could have leveraged numbers and tech on Terra to pump out a decent number of Terran SW to boost the VIth.

 

[Djangomatic82]

I suspect the only Primarch that could have had a real significant impact on the heresies out come would have been Ferrus Manus, had he survived.

Even if he didn't have his legion, having someone able to take on the full burden and focus of waging total galactic war against Horus, no offense to Dorn or the others, would have been the best alternative.

[calgar101]

@b1soul I can't find exact figures for the Battle of Alaxxes and Russ assault on the Vengeful Spirit but they suffered heavy casualties definitely. 

 

From reading Book 7 Inferno, Russ takes 73,200 Space Wolves to Prospero. 25,000 Space Wolves are killed and several thousand more are missing. Let's say that's 5,000? So the Wolves lose 30k Astartes.

It also says 20-25k Space Wolves didn't make it to Prospero. So after the assault we have say 60-65k left. Those who never made it to Prospero would not have been ambushed at Alaxxes? 

At Alaxxes you'd have just over 40k, they take a mauling, then at some point reach Terra? Before Russ goes for the Vengeful Spirit he has time to recommend all of his legion, let's say that's around the 40k mark and then the Wolves suffer another big loss on their assault of Horus's fleet.

I would say after that, Leman Russ leads between 10-20k Space Wolves but probably closer to 10k. 

I saw a post online with a summary of Wolfsbane, the poster said the Wolves suffered 4/5th casualties. Sounds right to me. 

If Russ never went for Horus and remained on Terra he would have had anywhere between 40-60k Space Wolves  to defend say the Lions Gate space port.